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Old 05-28-2018, 05:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
t. Employers in Chile love using cheap Haitian labor.

.
Chile has a large poor and lower middle class population. These are the types who pressure politicians to control the immigration of "undesirable" groups. They are the ones who have to deal with the consequences of cultural difference, as well as the fact that certain pathologies develop when groups are under paid, harassed by authorities and exploited. Something definitely true for Haitians who are more visible than are immigrants from other poor nations like Bolivia.

The employers love the Haitians. Many less affluent Chileans not so much. Hence there is greater tightening against them than there is against other immigrant groups. I don't see that 100k Haitian population growing to 300k. And if Chile enters into an economic crisis and scape goats are to be found Haitians become an obvious target.
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Old 05-28-2018, 05:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by seussie View Post

One of the best things I've ever done as someone who identifies as AFAM, for I will never forsake my family and ancestors, as well as Black, is taking month-long trips to African countries with a purpose other than tourism and avoiding most expatriate places possible. I found I was not judged at all as a transient voyeur. That and I grew up in a very diverse Black community (middle-class doctor type Nigerians that didn't live in white enclaves, Haitians, Jamaicans and Sudanese). It's made me respect people's choices to identify however they want, but it's also made it easier to call people on their BS when they (or I) allow stereotypes about one another to override reality.
Clearly so. Pushing US definitions of identity can have "interesting" consequences. Like a light skinned AA travelling to Jamaica or Haiti, meeting similar people and then assuming that they all share a bond of "white supremacist" oppression. The reaction will shock but then why should it if one found out that these "brown" Jamaicans/Haitians are descended from people who in times past were proud to be considered among the ranks of the slave owners and were reputedly even more cruel than the white ones. This as they hated every job of African blood that coursed through their veins.

And of course a black immigrant will see (or need to see) the USA as a land of opportunity, so will have limited patience for those who see it as being the worst place on earth. They came to the USA to better themselves so will find discussions of Jim Crow oppression or conspiracies about the "evil white man" to be quite boring. Of course they will acknowledge this country's legacy of racial oppression and the more educated will credit the struggles by AAs to facilitate their ability to progress in the USA. But to dwell on the negative defeats their motivation for migration to the USA.


So yes I agree that as you take time to understand them this earns you the right to shut them down when Africans boast about being the most educated and claiming that this fact shows some defect among AAs. The truth being that they represent an educated elite from Africa and if more "average" Africans migrated to the USA their challenges will be similar to that of poor AA. Ditto if West Indians/Haitians gripe about poor black Americans and ignore that many of their fellow compatriots are no better.
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Old 05-29-2018, 07:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Chile has a large poor and lower middle class population. These are the types who pressure politicians to control the immigration of "undesirable" groups. They are the ones who have to deal with the consequences of cultural difference, as well as the fact that certain pathologies develop when groups are under paid, harassed by authorities and exploited. Something definitely true for Haitians who are more visible than are immigrants from other poor nations like Bolivia.

The employers love the Haitians. Many less affluent Chileans not so much. Hence there is greater tightening against them than there is against other immigrant groups. I don't see that 100k Haitian population growing to 300k. And if Chile enters into an economic crisis and scape goats are to be found Haitians become an obvious target.
I do see it growing to 300k. The Chilean government has not attempted to eliminate Haitian immigration, though they have tightened it. Businesses are using Haitian, and for that matter Dominican and Venezuelan labor.

You can say the same for the US. Though they risk their lives coming here (shot at the border) that does not stop illegal immigration or people coming across the border to apply for asylum.

Also nations go through cycles, and the anti immigrant right has shown that they can't retain control when they do win.
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Old 06-08-2018, 08:41 AM
 
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While I don't really know how Africans interact with African Americans, I grew up in South-Eastern Europe, and I find Africans from Africa actually very similar to Europeans from Europe. Americans of any race seem to me much more different from the Old World people. Generally, the Old World people strike me as more curious and individualistic, and consequently more respectful of other people's individuality (I am saying "generally" - of course, there are many exceptions). This "curiosity" may also be at the root of greater interest in education for the sake of education (rather than for the sake of money), as well as less violent crime (with the exception of political instability in Africa and sometimes in parts of Europe), in people from the Old World. Americans generally seek to conform in every detail with the micro-cultural values of the micro-culture in which they grew up. The need (or even informal peer pressure) to conform to a group is not remotely similar in Europe to what I have seen in America - eg, in American teenagers there is this all-encompassing need to be "popular" or at least "accepted" by other kids, where European kids usually couldn't care less. I don't know how that is in Africa, but again, most African immigrants I have met in the US tended to strongly remind me of Europeans.
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Old 06-08-2018, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elnrgby View Post
While I don't really know how Africans interact with African Americans, I grew up in South-Eastern Europe, and I find Africans from Africa actually very similar to Europeans from Europe. Americans of any race seem to me much more different from the Old World people. Generally, the Old World people strike me as more curious and individualistic, and consequently more respectful of other people's individuality (I am saying "generally" - of course, there are many exceptions). This "curiosity" may also be at the root of greater interest in education for the sake of education (rather than for the sake of money), as well as less violent crime (with the exception of political instability in Africa and sometimes in parts of Europe), in people from the Old World. Americans generally seek to conform in every detail with the micro-cultural values of the micro-culture in which they grew up. The need (or even informal peer pressure) to conform to a group is not remotely similar in Europe to what I have seen in America - eg, in American teenagers there is this all-encompassing need to be "popular" or at least "accepted" by other kids, where European kids usually couldn't care less. I don't know how that is in Africa, but again, most African immigrants I have met in the US tended to strongly remind me of Europeans.

It due to socialization for example American high school socialization is a joke there is a lot of social stratification and at the apex of the hierarchy the culture idealizes football players and cheer leaders individuality is discouraged despite the culture claiming freedom of expression and rugged individualism is an essential component of American culture there is quite a bit of pressure to conform. This socialization becomes evident when you see people traveling abroad it shows in how people carry themselves and how painfully shallow many Americans are.
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Old 06-08-2018, 05:39 PM
 
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It could be also that since most African countries were ruled by France or Britain, the Western customs that they would pick up would be European (French or British) as opposed to American. Thus Africans would seem more like Europeans.

However, as an AA who has LIVED with Africans my experience is that they are group-oriented vs. individual-oriented.

For example, 10 of us would be at a table eating, all nine would wait until the last person was finished, then we would ALL
get up together and leave and we all ate with our right hands. No one ever left alone.

We are at a table at a cabaret, lots of beer, I noticed the African guys would get up and leave in twos and come back, I am
thinking "What is going on"... I got up to leave one of the African guys got up to leave with me, what I found out was that
it was the custom NOT to go to the bathroom by yourself. This was never verbally stated but understood. An American would say " I'll be right back".

It was a "We" vs. "I" thing..."We sleep now"..."We get up now" Also, it was understood that an African's friend was an
extension of him. So you automatically became his friend's friend. It was like "Bob this is John", (handshake) "John say
goodbye to your new friend Bob"...So now, next time I see "Bob" he acts like he has been knowing me 20 years.

So I think there is group conformity in West African culture.
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Old 06-08-2018, 06:55 PM
 
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Right, but I am not talking about customs; I am talking about people's personalities. Doing certain things in groups rather than alone is not group conformity, but just a practical custom. Group conformity is feeling pressured to have the same values, tastes, thoughts, opinions and personality like everybody else in the group.
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elnrgby View Post
While I don't really know how Africans interact with African Americans, I grew up in South-Eastern Europe, and I find Africans from Africa actually very similar to Europeans from Europe. Americans of any race seem to me much more different from the Old World people. s.

In fact I would say the complete opposite. Old world cultures have traditions that go back thousands of years and fixed identities associated with it. Very deep senses of traditions and a defensiveness towards new groups arriving to transform this. Look at how immigrants assimilate in the Americas with what happens in the Old world. And in fact Asia is even worse at this than is Europe.


The Americas are a set of new cultures, still evolving. This is why they are more innovative. Imagine a world without the USA. How modern would it be? One cannot escape the grasp of US culture. Note that immigrants, including nonwhite immigrants are very much a part of this process. Silicon Valley is packed with assorted Asian immigrants virtually running the show. Dig into American culture and you will see influences from every corner of the globe, yet these are considered American.

I can say similar for Brazil, not technologically innovative, but certainly culturally. Canada is so diverse and multicultural that no one even knows what Canadian cultures or identities are anymore. The influence of the Caribbean in global music is way more than one would expect given the smallness of these islands.

People of the Americas are way more individualistic than those of Europe/Africa/Asia. In fact we are normally seen as too individualistic and less concerned for the communal welfare. Accusations of excessive materialism growing out of this individualism in fact are quite valid.

And clearly this dynamism of the Americas must appeal. Go anywhere and US influences on local pop culture are very apparent, and at times even dominant. I don't think that one can say the same for Russia. And even British influence come from an era now long gone.
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:37 AM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,952,446 times
Reputation: 3799
Quote:
Originally Posted by elnrgby View Post
Right, but I am not talking about customs; I am talking about people's personalities. Doing certain things in groups rather than alone is not group conformity, but just a practical custom. Group conformity is feeling pressured to have the same values, tastes, thoughts, opinions and personality like everybody else in the group.
Individuals operate within the context of their societies. The Old World is about conformity. So the personalities which evolve conform to the group, even if they aren't conscious of it.

Its even interesting to see how immigrants from a nation who migrate to Europe eventually come to differ from those who migrate to North America. Those to Europe are pressured to conform to local culture. European countries even hand these immigrants handbooks with rules that they must conform to. Those to Canada and the USA do as they wish and assimilate as much as they feel a need to.

As an example of this. Virtually every company in the USA gives callers two language options when they wish to obtain information. Yes the famous "press 1 for Spanish, stay on the line for English" In NYC and many other parts of the USA its the LAW that voting instructions should be available in the dominant immigrant languages spoken, in addition to English.

Is this possible in Europe? I will not even discuss Eastern Europe which is quite xenophobic, even as people from those nations crowd those of western Europe and have migrated also to the Americas and Australia.
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Old 06-30-2018, 12:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Individuals operate within the context of their societies. The Old World is about conformity. So the personalities which evolve conform to the group, even if they aren't conscious of it.

Its even interesting to see how immigrants from a nation who migrate to Europe eventually come to differ from those who migrate to North America. Those to Europe are pressured to conform to local culture. European countries even hand these immigrants handbooks with rules that they must conform to. Those to Canada and the USA do as they wish and assimilate as much as they feel a need to.

As an example of this. Virtually every company in the USA gives callers two language options when they wish to obtain information. Yes the famous "press 1 for Spanish, stay on the line for English" In NYC and many other parts of the USA its the LAW that voting instructions should be available in the dominant immigrant languages spoken, in addition to English.

Is this possible in Europe? I will not even discuss Eastern Europe which is quite xenophobic, even as people from those nations crowd those of western Europe and have migrated also to the Americas and Australia.
You're right about immigrants being pressured to conform to local culture. Tourists can get away with speaking English as they are just in hotels or certain restaurants. But one cannot go to the doctor, the store, or do other business in Spain long term in English. You'll have to quickly learn Spanish. Ditto for other European countries in which immigrants quickly learn whatever the main language is.

Immigrants even are offered free classes in the local language. Here in Catalonia the classes are in Spanish and Catalan.
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