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Old 07-05-2018, 08:11 AM
 
1,753 posts, read 637,659 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
The children and grandchildren of Latin American immigrants are ghettoized in NYC very often, especially Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, etc. They are not ghettoized at all in Spain and are mainstream with everyone else.

Immigrants are sometimes put in a "minority" category that can impoverish them, but I can say the same for African Americans as Lyndon Johnson's war on poverty funded many more housing projects that African Americans, Puerto Ricans, and Dominicans were put in places like NYC (along with some West Indians). I don't need to tell you anyone the results.



History is what it is, but conditions today are nothing remotely similar to Lyndon Johnson. People of any race or ethnicity nowadays only ghettoize themselves with unwillingness to pursue a change from "ghetto style" and with unwillingness to interact with the others, both in the US and in Europe (that is one example of a situation where the US and Europe actually do not differ much). I don't know Spain that much, but I have been told (by a Latin American) that people pf Latin American origin have willingly integrated themselves in tbe Spanish society (by speaking the primary language of the country, for starters), but most Moroccans didn't. The equivalent of a ghetto Dominican in the US is not a Dominican in Spain, but a Moroccan in Spain.



The mayor of London (who is of Pakistani ancestry, I believe), could have chosen to drop out of school and take welfare, deal a little hash here and there, have 5 kids he couldn't really support, have his entire social life structured around his mosque, his extended family and a few Pakistani friends, refuse to interact with the English, and harangue all day against history, British Raj and all the Europeans in general. But in that case he would not be the mayor of London, and it would be absurd to blame Winston Churchill for his life in a ghetto and his failure to became the mayor of London - if he himself CHOSE this other life (rather than education, modern internationalism, and all other things that actually led him to being the mayor of London).


It is likewise absurd to blame Lyndon Johnson for every instance when a minority person chooses a lazy, worthless way of life in the US in the year 2018, after the US just had a minority PRESIDENT for two terms!


Minority people were "put" in certain places in the US? Dude, I thought you said the government did not "send" anybody anywhere, this is the US (unlike the "dictatorship" in my country of origin). One can allow for a certain degree of self-contradiction, that's normal - but you will stretch every argument, and readily turn it 180 degrees, just to find an excuse for ghetto people who are, in ypur personal version of reality, always innocent of any personal decision and stricly programmed like robots by history, the whites, economic conditions, everything in the world except their own mind.

Last edited by elnrgby; 07-05-2018 at 08:36 AM..
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Old 07-05-2018, 08:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elnrgby View Post
History is what it is, but conditions today are nothing remotely similar to Lyndon Johnson. People of any race or ethnicity nowadays only ghettoize themselves with unwillingness to pursue a change from "ghetto style" and with unwillingness to interact with the others, both in the US and in Europe (that is one example of a situation where the US and Europe actually do not differ much).



The mayor of London (who is of Pakistani ancestry, I believe), could have chosen to drop out of school and take welfare, deal a little hash here and there, have 5 kids he couldn't really support, have his entire social life structured around his mosque, his extended family and a few Pakistani friends, refuse to interact with the English, and harangue all day against history, British Raj and all the Europeans in general. But in that case he would not be the mayor of London, and it would be absurd to blame Winston Churchill for his life in a ghetto and his failure to became the mayor of London - if he himself CHOSE this other life (rather than education, modern internationalism, and all other things that actually led him to being the mayor of London).


It is likewise absurd to blame Lyndon Johnson for every instance when a minority person chooses a lazy, worthless way of life in the US in the year 2018, after the US just had a minority PRESIDENT for two terms!


Minority people were "put" in certain places in the US? Dude, I thought you said the government did not "send" anybody anywhere, this is the US (unlike the "dictatorship" in my country of origin). One can allow for a certain degree of self-contradiction, that's normal - but you will stretch every argument, and readily turn it 180 degrees, just to find an excuse for ghetto people who are, in ypur personal version of reality, always innocent of any personal decision and stricly programmed like robots by history, the whites, economic conditions, everything in the world except their own mind.
Again you speak on things you know nothing about.

Take Spain. In order to get Spanish citizenship, there are different ways of doing it.

If you have no Latino ancestry and where not from a country that was once a part of the Spanish colonial empire, you will have to live in Spain for TEN years to become a citizen, and you will have to give us your previous citizenship.

Those from the Spanish colonial empire only have to live in Spain for two years, and they get to keep their previous citizenship.

As a result, Latinos in Spain are not marginalized, and Dominicans, Mexicans, Brazilians, and the like do very well. It's Africans here who have no connection to Spain here who are the poorest group in Spanish society. Go to La Rambla, and you will see Nigerian women selling themselves on the street, and you will see Nigerian and certain other West African men selling drugs. They live in apartment buildings falling down.

No amount of trying to hang out with Spaniyards will change the fact that the Spanish government has not given them legal residence, and yes it is harder for an African or Arab here to get legal status or citizenship because Spain does not want to encourage their immigration unless they are from Equatorial Guinea.

As noted, I'm part Jewish so getting legal status was EASY for me.

Re: Johnson was President in the 1960s. So those people who moved into housing projects in the 1960s are still ALIVE, and what you refused to acknowledge is that there are MULTIPLE long term affects that cannot easily be undone in just a few decades.

More than 800 children poisoned by lead in NYCHA | New York Amsterdam News: The new Black view

Example, NYCHA is full of lead, and a number of children recently are still testing positive for lead poisoning.

What are the long term consequences of this? Severe intellectual impairment. You cannot just tell someone whose brain has been damaged to do well in school and get a fabulous career, they may never be able to do so due to neurological impairment.

Oh, and the kids whose parents don't feed them properly? We know malnutrition has long term effects on brain capacity. So those kids will not be doing well in school either.

You're so desperate to hate on poor Black Americans, please explain why the Africans you claim to love so much do so poorly in Spain, where they do not have try to hide that they prefer to give citizenship and legal status to certain people.

You assume you know a lot when you know nothing, because you just repeat right wing propaganda.

I know the immigration requirements in European better than the average European, because I personally have had to fill those requirements myself.
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Old 07-05-2018, 08:37 AM
 
24,310 posts, read 17,746,792 times
Reputation: 9197
Here's more from Richard Rothstein on how the US government created inner city poverty.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...rhoods-reasons

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/07/o...d-ghettos.html
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Old 07-05-2018, 08:47 AM
 
24,310 posts, read 17,746,792 times
Reputation: 9197
I will talk further about my family, and why I was even able to attend two Ivy League schools. I got an inheritance from an aunt that paid for my masters degree. My mom helped pay for my masters degree before that.

How did we do that?

Our family owed land in the South. They were farmers and owned their own land at a time when many Blacks were sharecropping. Sharecropping means you rent land from someone else and work on it, but pretty much all the profits go to them. It was not much different from slavery, and many Blacks continued to work like this till the 1960s and 1970s. And yes they were typically illiterate, as Blacks couldn't go to school then. Why, all you could do is work in agriculture or as a domestic.

I'm sure my grandparents worked hard. But here's a secret for you. Slaveowners sometimes left their mixed race children MONEY and LAND, and having some money from your white father gave you a step up. It often affected your family for many generations.

Indirectly because of my slave owning great great great grandfather who acknowledged his son and named him after him, my family had money and I was able to get a good education. It was passed on generationally. My first name is a common name among whites, and my last name is Jewish, so if I apply for educational programs and jobs no one will think I'm Black until they see me. I had a person tell me on an interview with my name he thought I would be white and Jewish. (I"m not white, I am what's called a crypto-Jew).

Directly because of my great great great grandfather's last name, which is why last name I'm in the process of getting Spanish citizenship. Not because I "worked" hard, it is because of the ethnicity of an ancestor of mine. Jewish.

To tell you the truth the person who admitted me into my program at Columbia is Jewish, and my last name is Jewish. Could they have been a factor in why I got in? Potentially.

I personally have received multiple privileges that the average AA, West Indian, or African will never get because my Jewish last name (unless they are also part Jewish or very wealthy).

So please don't even try to claim that all people have to do is work hard, or what happened JUST A FEW DECADES ago doesn't matter. In some cases what happened a CENTURY or TWO ago might matter, particularly when you're talking about inherited wealth.

And if you think inheritances don't matter in the US, I'm sorry but your IQ is just ROCK bottom.
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Old 07-05-2018, 09:03 AM
 
1,753 posts, read 637,659 times
Reputation: 1843
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Again you speak on things you know nothing about.

Take Spain. In order to get Spanish citizenship, there are different ways of doing it.

If you have no Latino ancestry and where not from a country that was once a part of the Spanish colonial empire, you will have to live in Spain for TEN years to become a citizen, and you will have to give us your previous citizenship.

Those from the Spanish colonial empire only have to live in Spain for two years, and they get to keep their previous citizenship.

As a result, Latinos in Spain are not marginalized, and Dominicans, Mexicans, Brazilians, and the like do very well. It's Africans here who have no connection to Spain here who are the poorest group in Spanish society. Go to La Rambla, and you will see Nigerian women selling themselves on the street, and you will see Nigerian and certain other West African men selling drugs. They live in apartment buildings falling down.

No amount of trying to hang out with Spaniyards will change the fact that the Spanish government has not given them legal residence, and yes it is harder for an African or Arab here to get legal status or citizenship because Spain does not want to encourage their immigration unless they are from Equatorial Guinea.

As noted, I'm part Jewish so getting legal status was EASY for me.

Re: Johnson was President in the 1960s. So those people who moved into housing projects in the 1960s are still ALIVE, and what you refused to acknowledge is that there are MULTIPLE long term affects that cannot easily be undone in just a few decades.

More than 800 children poisoned by lead in NYCHA | New York Amsterdam News: The new Black view

Example, NYCHA is full of lead, and a number of children recently are still testing positive for lead poisoning.

What are the long term consequences of this? Severe intellectual impairment. You cannot just tell someone whose brain has been damaged to do well in school and get a fabulous career, they may never be able to do so due to neurological impairment.

Oh, and the kids whose parents don't feed them properly? We know malnutrition has long term effects on brain capacity. So those kids will not be doing well in school either.

You're so desperate to hate on poor Black Americans, please explain why the Africans you claim to love so much do so poorly in Spain, where they do not have try to hide that they prefer to give citizenship and legal status to certain people.

You assume you know a lot when you know nothing, because you just repeat right wing propaganda.

I know the immigration requirements in European better than the average European, because I personally have had to fill those requirements myself.



It is normal for a former colonial power to give immigration preference to its former subjects (as it is normal for the US to have different immigration rules for people from the US territories vs. other types of immigrants). I do not come from Spanish colonial empire, so if I wanted to immigrate into Spain, I would have to wait 10 years, which is not different from a Nigerian, so how do you see me as privileged over a Nigerian in that situation? Actually, from the moment I came to the US on a training visa, it took me 29 years to obtain the US citozenship (and that was not due to any delay in applications on my part - I filled out papers for every subsequent legal step as soon as I was allowed, but the procedure still took 29 years). I am not right-wing or any wing, I just think with my own head based on what I see (YOU are the one who acts as though everybody has to belong to some kind of "wing", as though people can think strictly in groups, and as though you can twist any argument to defend a criminal and welfare-dependent lifestyle. I have nothing whatsoever against the poor Blacks in the US - I have much against crime and welfare lifestyle, no matter who it is that lives that way. I never equated poor Blacks in the US with criminals and lazy leeches, you are the one who seems to be making that equation, and then defending crime and welfare lifestyle as a result of history). As for my source of information about Spain (admittedly, I don't know all that much about Spain, but I have family in, or am otherwise closely familiar with, three other former Euro countries that had colonies or non-native territories), please see my amended previous post.

Last edited by elnrgby; 07-05-2018 at 09:37 AM..
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Old 07-05-2018, 09:28 AM
 
1,753 posts, read 637,659 times
Reputation: 1843
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
I will talk further about my family, and why I was even able to attend two Ivy League schools. I got an inheritance from an aunt that paid for my masters degree. My mom helped pay for my masters degree before that.

How did we do that?

Our family owed land in the South. They were farmers and owned their own land at a time when many Blacks were sharecropping. Sharecropping means you rent land from someone else and work on it, but pretty much all the profits go to them. It was not much different from slavery, and many Blacks continued to work like this till the 1960s and 1970s. And yes they were typically illiterate, as Blacks couldn't go to school then. Why, all you could do is work in agriculture or as a domestic.

I'm sure my grandparents worked hard. But here's a secret for you. Slaveowners sometimes left their mixed race children MONEY and LAND, and having some money from your white father gave you a step up. It often affected your family for many generations.

Indirectly because of my slave owning great great great grandfather who acknowledged his son and named him after him, my family had money and I was able to get a good education. It was passed on generationally. My first name is a common name among whites, and my last name is Jewish, so if I apply for educational programs and jobs no one will think I'm Black until they see me. I had a person tell me on an interview with my name he thought I would be white and Jewish. (I"m not white, I am what's called a crypto-Jew).

Directly because of my great great great grandfather's last name, which is why last name I'm in the process of getting Spanish citizenship. Not because I "worked" hard, it is because of the ethnicity of an ancestor of mine. Jewish.

To tell you the truth the person who admitted me into my program at Columbia is Jewish, and my last name is Jewish. Could they have been a factor in why I got in? Potentially.

I personally have received multiple privileges that the average AA, West Indian, or African will never get because my Jewish last name (unless they are also part Jewish or very wealthy).

So please don't even try to claim that all people have to do is work hard, or what happened JUST A FEW DECADES ago doesn't matter. In some cases what happened a CENTURY or TWO ago might matter, particularly when you're talking about inherited wealth.

And if you think inheritances don't matter in the US, I'm sorry but your IQ is just ROCK bottom.

Loopholes exist and people occasionally use them to get ahead, but in the US loopholes are not even a frequent (let alone the only possible) way to get ahead. I did very alright in the US without any inherited wealth just by filling positions that no other qualified person wanted (and I am not even Jewish :-). Saying that the US, in the year 2018, does not offer a decent chance (not an equal chance, but at least a decent chance) to all of its citizens, is a cop-out and a self-serving excuse. While I wish more Americans would have more interesting personalities than sheep, I have nothing negative to say about their economic enterprises or their social justice in the year 2018.

Last edited by elnrgby; 07-05-2018 at 09:39 AM..
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Old 07-05-2018, 09:37 AM
 
24,310 posts, read 17,746,792 times
Reputation: 9197
Quote:
Originally Posted by elnrgby View Post
It is normal for a former colonial power to give immigration preference to its former subjects (as it is normal for the US to have different immigration rules for people from the US territories vs. other types of immigrants). I do not come from Spanish colonial empire, so if I wanted to immigrate into Spain, I would have to wait 10 years, which is not different from a Nigerian, so how do you see me as privileged over a Nigerian in that situation? Actually, from the moment I came to the US on a training visa, it took me 29 years to obtain the US citozenship (and that was not due to any delay in applications on my part - I filled out papers for every subsequent legal step as soon as I was allowed, but the procedure still took 29 years). I am not right-wing or any wing, I just think with my own head based on what I see (YOU are the one who acts as though everybody has to belong to some kind of "wing", as though people can think strictly in groups, and as though you can twist any argument to defend a criminal and welfare-depentent lifestyle. I have nothing whatsoever against the poor Blacks in the US - I have much against crime and welfare lifestyle, no matter who it is that lives that way. I never equated poor Blacks in the US with criminals and lazy leeches, you are the one who seems to be making that equation, and then defending crime and welfare lifestyle as a result of history). As for my source of information about Spain (admittedly, I don't know all that much about Spain, but I have family in, or am otherwise closely familiar with, three other former Euro countries that had colonies or non-native territories), please see my amended previous post.
Show me where I equated Blacks in the US with criminals or with welfare leeches.

I should know a lot more about Blacks in the US from going UP as ONE myself, and I have the relevant degrees in history and education.

You are not a historian, you are not Black, you're just a random person.

Oh, but here's a difference between you and a Nigerian. Are you from an European Union country? Anyone from an European Union country does not need Spanish citizenship to get legal status and work. Nigerians are outside the EU, and it is much harder for them to get legal status than an European from an European Union nation, or from anywhere in the Spanish colonial empire. The only qualifying African nation is Ecquatorial Guinea. These are not my opinions, they are Spanish law.

As a result you will see Nigerians out in the streets as prostitutes, drug dealers, selling counterfeit goods, and other seedy and low life jobs. Notice you don't see that among Nigerian immigrants in the US, which does not have these kinds of immigration preferences.
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Old 07-05-2018, 09:40 AM
 
24,310 posts, read 17,746,792 times
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Originally Posted by elnrgby View Post
Loopholes exist and people occasionally use them to get ahead, but in the US loopholes are not even a frequent (let alone the only possible) way to get ahead. I did very alright in the US just by filling positions that no other qualified person wanted (and I am not even Jewish :-). Saying that the US, in the year 2018, does not offer a decent chance (not an equal chance, but at least a decent chance) to all of its citizens, is a cop-out and a self-serving excuse. While I wish more Americans would have more interesting personalities than sheep, I have nothing negative to say about their economic enterprises or their social justice in the year 2018.
It does not offer them an equal chance. Many will never have the chances I had.

Going to a top university has financial costs, and grants and scholarships are not guaranteed. In fact in my masters programs pretty much everyone had to pay with cash or with student loans. In short, if your parents were poor, you were likely screwed, plain and simple.

I could give many other examples.

To tell you the truth the average white person would not be able to do all I've done, though this is no problem for someone rich of any race.

But to even claim everyone has the same opportunities is just plain dishonest.

Jewish people have among the best professional networks there are. It's always nice to have Jewish ancestry.
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Old 07-05-2018, 10:14 AM
 
1,753 posts, read 637,659 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
It does not offer them an equal chance. Many will never have the chances I had.

Going to a top university has financial costs, and grants and scholarships are not guaranteed. In fact in my masters programs pretty much everyone had to pay with cash or with student loans. In short, if your parents were poor, you were likely screwed, plain and simple.

I could give many other examples.

To tell you the truth the average white person would not be able to do all I've done, though this is no problem for someone rich of any race.

But to even claim everyone has the same opportunities is just plain dishonest.

Jewish people have among the best professional networks there are. It's always nice to have Jewish ancestry.

Please read my post - I did not say equal chance or same chance (I specifically said NOT equal chance), but a DECENT chance for every citizen of the US - that DOES exist (even for non-citizen legal immigrants without inheritance or Jewishness, as exemplified by myself). It is plain dishonest to change my words for your purposes. Not everybody can become a CEO of Microsoft, but that is not necessary - the only necessity for everyone is a DECENT life. Any citizen of the US who applies himself/herself CAN become a truck driver, mail carrier, plumber, teacher, a million other middle-class jobs (is a truck driver even middle-class? But they can make over $100k per year). There are still even a lot of working-class jobs that do pay a living wage (an example is my tenant in Parkchester who spoon-feeds people that can't do it themselves and changes their diapers for a living, and still can fairly easily afford a studio for herself). Anyone who finishes high school and gets some basic on-the-job training can earn a living wage to support one person (ie, self) in the US.


Also, I am not a citizen of any EU country, but a citizen of the US (I have no other citizenship right now, I had no citizenship of any country (ie, was stateless) between the early 90s when Yugoslavia disintegrated, and a few years ago when I became a naturalized US citizen).

Last edited by elnrgby; 07-05-2018 at 10:31 AM..
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Old 07-05-2018, 10:30 AM
 
24,310 posts, read 17,746,792 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elnrgby View Post
Please read my post - I did not say equal chance or same chance (I specifically said NOT equal chance), but a DECENT chance for every citizen of the US - that DOES exist (even for non-citizen legal immigrants without inheritance or Jewishness, as exemplified by myself). It is plain dishonest to change my words for your purposes. Not everybody can become a CEO of Microsoft, but that is not necessary - the only necessity for everyone is a DECENT life. Any citizen of the US who applies himself/herself CAN become a truck driver, mail carrier, plumber, teacher, a million other middle-class jobs (is a truck driver even middle-class? But they can make over $100k per year). There are still even a lot of working-class jobs that do pay a living wage (an example is my tenant in Parkchester who spoon-feeds people that can't do it themselves and changes their diapers for a living, and still can fairly easily afford a studio for herself). Anyone who finishes high school and gets some basic on-the-job training can earn a living wage to support one person (ie, self) in the US.
Now I will agree with you there. Anyone in the US can work for the post office, become a plumber, become a teacher(they can go to a state school), a nurse, etc. If she works hard. Criminals and addicts if they can clean themselves up can get decent jobs too.

I’ve personally known ghetto people to clean themselves up and get decent jobs, and a few who got advanced education. If a convict studies and is willing to behave the state will pay for their education. I knew a felon who got his BA from John Jay and his MPH from Columbia and the state helped him out financially because he did well in prison classes. Another felon I know got his BA from a state school in Oklahoma. Then he got a masters and PhD from Columbia and is a professor at CUNY. The state helps convicts and addicts who show a willingness to turn around because if they gain job skills they are not likely to turn to crime or hard core drugs.

So yes, it is inaccurate to say it is hopeless for people. But it’s also inaccurate to say people have the same chances or opportunities. The felons I just mentioned did not grow up in NYCHA and had no lead exposure.
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