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Old 07-05-2018, 10:37 AM
 
1,743 posts, read 629,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Now I will agree with you there. Anyone in the US can work for the post office, become a plumber, become a teacher(they can go to a state school), a nurse, etc. If she works hard. Criminals and addicts if they can clean themselves up can get decent jobs too.

I’ve personally known ghetto people to clean themselves up and get decent jobs, and a few who got advanced education. If a convict studies and is willing to behave the state will pay for their education. I knew a felon who got his BA from John Jay and his MPH from Columbia and the state helped him out financially because he did well in prison classes. Another felon I know got his BA from a state school in Oklahoma. Then he got a masters and PhD from Columbia and is a professor at CUNY. The state helps convicts and addicts who show a willingness to turn around because if they gain job skills they are not likely to turn to crime or hard core drugs.

Right. And there is no excuse for not showing that willingness.
On unrelated subject of EU, please read the paragraph in the last mail rhat I added to the paragraph you ciited. Dude, I had it a bit harder, citizenship-wise and life-wise, than all these people you are defending who CHOSE the life of crime and welfare - not because they have no alternative, but because their choice does not require any effort. Mugging people and collecting a welfare check is fairly effortless.
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Old 07-05-2018, 10:46 AM
 
1,743 posts, read 629,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Now I will agree with you there. Anyone in the US can work for the post office, become a plumber, become a teacher(they can go to a state school), a nurse, etc. If she works hard. Criminals and addicts if they can clean themselves up can get decent jobs too.

I’ve personally known ghetto people to clean themselves up and get decent jobs, and a few who got advanced education. If a convict studies and is willing to behave the state will pay for their education. I knew a felon who got his BA from John Jay and his MPH from Columbia and the state helped him out financially because he did well in prison classes. Another felon I know got his BA from a state school in Oklahoma. Then he got a masters and PhD from Columbia and is a professor at CUNY. The state helps convicts and addicts who show a willingness to turn around because if they gain job skills they are not likely to turn to crime or hard core drugs.

So yes, it is inaccurate to say it is hopeless for people. But it’s also inaccurate to say people have the same chances or opportunities. The felons I just mentioned did not grow up in NYCHA and had no lead exposure.

I had lead exposure every day of my life, at least til my middle age (probably still have it, my condo in SF is in a pre-earthquake non-renovated 19th century Victorian), but have never been a felon, and have two doctoral-level degrees. Anybody mentally competent to commit a crime is also mentally competent for a low level job.
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Old 07-05-2018, 10:52 AM
 
24,249 posts, read 17,684,435 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elnrgby View Post
I had lead exposure every day of my life, at least til my middle age (probably still have it, my condo in SF is in a pre-earthquake non-renovated 19th century Victorian), but have never been a felon, and have two doctoral-level degrees. Anybody mentally competent to commit a crime is also mentally competent for a low level job.
You ignored I had a smile there. I was mostly joking. Maybe you had the two felons had better genetics and were able to withstand the lead or recover from it.
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Old 07-06-2018, 07:43 AM
 
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Now we've finally covered that not everyone has the SAME opportunities or chances, we can look at where you LIVE, in NYC.

As a grad student, I found a cheap room and paid $650 a month, which was good for Hamilton Heights and close to Columbia were I studied.

But given that just to rent a ROOM in some parts of town is $2000k, even with free tuition at CUNY and SUNY students still have to eat, pay rent and other expenses, etc.

So getting the education required to be a teacher, for example, even if college is free, is going to be much harder if the student has to work. Getting poor grades as an undergraduate may mean that grad school will not happen.

If it possible for a poor person to work themselves up? Of course, anything is possible. But how probable is it, unless they can SOME sort of major financial help from SOMEBODY else. That could be parents or other family members, that could be the government, that could be some sort of private sponsor, etc.

Without that, it's just not happening.

You're too eager to throw people under the bus just because they don't have your education, but even people with high levels of education are struggling in places like NYC and LA. Student loan payments, plus high levels of rent can keep someone impoverished for years as employers constantly seek waves to save money and keep costs down.

I've been fortunate and I thank god for that. But I can also have empathy for people less fortunate, and understand that not everyone is going to be as lucky as me or have my opportunities. And I have no reason to hate on them or judge them.
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Old 07-06-2018, 07:48 AM
 
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Even on the lead exposure stuff, why I am glad you seem to be healthy and functional, lead exposure in some cases can mean death or permanent disability. I'm glad you were able to get your education and work and buy your two co-ops.

https://www.thenation.com/article/ne...equal-schools/

Saying stuff like "I have lead exposure and I'm fine" means you have completely no respect for SCIENCE and MEDICAL facts.

As LEAD KILLS some people and can leave someone with severe neurological damage to the point of permanently having SEIZURES and other severely neurological disorders that may PRECLUDE them from having any job.

You can be grateful for you health, and grateful for the fact you've dodged this bullet and have had opportunities some people SIMPLY cannot.
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Old 07-06-2018, 08:54 AM
 
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Removing lead for fear of lead toxicity is a spit in the ocean considering everything else we are all exposed to regularly. Just walking down the street in NYC you are inhaling a few dozen toxic substances and carcinogens. Lead paint and lead pipes were used over a couple of centuries - yes, lead is toxic, but if serious toxicity (with lead levels that regularly damage neurologic system, kidneys etc) were that frequent from living in homes with lead paint and pipes, the populations of all Western cities would have been extinct long ago.



How come you are not equally concerned about toxicity of cocaine to the brains of infants born to certain mothers, or life-threatening opioid withdrawal in newborns? While lead exposure might seriously affect a rare kid (basically only if the kid eats paint), the drugs taken during pregnancy affect every kid exposed to them. I have worked in places where more than half of obstetric patients used street drugs during pregnancy, and if you try to tell them that's not healthy for them or their baby, they just laugh like morons.


We have rehashed the discussion about educational opportunities a million times. Public high schools are free, kids don't have to work while going to high school, just have to study. If poor students do well in school, they will get financial help for college. If they do not do well in school, they can drive a truck or do something else that does not require college. If somebody wants to drive a truck for 5 years, save a few hundred thousand $, and then go to college, that option is available as well.



It is characteristic of your kind of argument to say that, if kids have no opportunity to study at Columbia, they have no opportunity at all. How about SUNY Binghamton, with financial help that is quite available to good students who are poor (so they don't have to work)?


Incidentally, I don't see how any of that relates to the subject of this thread.
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Old 07-06-2018, 11:57 AM
 
24,249 posts, read 17,684,435 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elnrgby View Post
Removing lead for fear of lead toxicity is a spit in the ocean considering everything else we are all exposed to regularly. Just walking down the street in NYC you are inhaling a few dozen toxic substances and carcinogens. Lead paint and lead pipes were used over a couple of centuries - yes, lead is toxic, but if serious toxicity (with lead levels that regularly damage neurologic system, kidneys etc) were that frequent from living in homes with lead paint and pipes, the populations of all Western cities would have been extinct long ago.



How come you are not equally concerned about toxicity of cocaine to the brains of infants born to certain mothers, or life-threatening opioid withdrawal in newborns? While lead exposure might seriously affect a rare kid (basically only if the kid eats paint), the drugs taken during pregnancy affect every kid exposed to them. I have worked in places where more than half of obstetric patients used street drugs during pregnancy, and if you try to tell them that's not healthy for them or their baby, they just laugh like morons.


We have rehashed the discussion about educational opportunities a million times. Public high schools are free, kids don't have to work while going to high school, just have to study. If poor students do well in school, they will get financial help for college. If they do not do well in school, they can drive a truck or do something else that does not require college. If somebody wants to drive a truck for 5 years, save a few hundred thousand $, and then go to college, that option is available as well.



It is characteristic of your kind of argument to say that, if kids have no opportunity to study at Columbia, they have no opportunity at all. How about SUNY Binghamton, with financial help that is quite available to good students who are poor (so they don't have to work)?


Incidentally, I don't see how any of that relates to the subject of this thread.
Small kids will eat paint crumbs sometimes. At times it's a serious problem.

Or there are other kinds of contamination. While I am GLAD you weren't IMPAIRED, that does not mean other people cannot be permanently impaired by LEAD.

Hardcore drug addiction is not healthy, no. However, I've read up on addiction to. It's a mental health disorder. It has complexes causes, and addiction cannot be cured by throwing addicts, including pregnant women under the bus. These people need treatment.

Big mystery: What causes addiction? | NBC News

Basic info on addiction you should know if you work in the medical profession. Including a small sample of the complex causes. Notice NO PROFESSIONAL thinks moralizing to addicts is going to help them or stop them. There are various forms of treatment. So I would say the addicted mother NEEDS treatment and support. Obviously she has to be willing to cooperate.
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Old 07-06-2018, 12:42 PM
 
1,743 posts, read 629,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Small kids will eat paint crumbs sometimes. At times it's a serious problem.

Or there are other kinds of contamination. While I am GLAD you weren't IMPAIRED, that does not mean other people cannot be permanently impaired by LEAD.

Hardcore drug addiction is not healthy, no. However, I've read up on addiction to. It's a mental health disorder. It has complexes causes, and addiction cannot be cured by throwing addicts, including pregnant women under the bus. These people need treatment.

Big mystery: What causes addiction? | NBC News

Basic info on addiction you should know if you work in the medical profession. Including a small sample of the complex causes. Notice NO PROFESSIONAL thinks moralizing to addicts is going to help them or stop them. There are various forms of treatment. So I would say the addicted mother NEEDS treatment and support. Obviously she has to be willing to cooperate.

Get real. The decision to start taking drugs of addiction is no more a "mental health disorder" than the decision to eat chocolate. Do you really think there are still people on this planet who at this point have never heard that cocaine and opioids are highly addictive, so they might take them just out of innocent ignorance? No, the decision to take drugs of addiction is a fully conscious seeking of instant gratification at any cost - which is not a mental disorder, but recklessness, lack of personal responsibility. Once the addiction sets in, true, it becomes a disorder, both mental and physical. But why make decision to make yourself seriously ill, and then consider it fair to ask taxpayers to take care of you by funding your complex and likely ultimately not successful healthcare? I will yet have to meet a professional who has to deal with addicts, and still particularly likes them or respects them.



Again though, that is not the topic of this thread.
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Old 07-06-2018, 01:18 PM
 
24,249 posts, read 17,684,435 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elnrgby View Post
Get real. The decision to start taking drugs of addiction is no more a "mental health disorder" than the decision to eat chocolate. Do you really think there are still people on this planet who at this point have never heard that cocaine and opioids are highly addictive, so they might take them just out of innocent ignorance? No, the decision to take drugs of addiction is a fully conscious seeking of instant gratification at any cost - which is not a mental disorder, but recklessness, lack of personal responsibility. Once the addiction sets in, true, it becomes a disorder, both mental and physical. But why make decision to make yourself seriously ill, and then consider it fair to ask taxpayers to take care of you by funding your complex and likely ultimately not successful healthcare? I will yet have to meet a professional who has to deal with addicts, and still particularly likes them or respects them.



Again though, that is not the topic of this thread.
Notice you project your own extremely biased feelings into things, and ignore research written by experts.

Everything is about attempting to throw under people under the bus so you can feel better about yourself.

President Bush, President Obama, and a host of highly successful people have used drugs, including cocaine.

Drug use ALONE does not make one poor, and it affects people from ALL WALKS of LIFE.
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Old 07-06-2018, 02:04 PM
 
1,743 posts, read 629,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Notice you project your own extremely biased feelings into things, and ignore research written by experts.

Everything is about attempting to throw under people under the bus so you can feel better about yourself.

President Bush, President Obama, and a host of highly successful people have used drugs, including cocaine.

Drug use ALONE does not make one poor, and it affects people from ALL WALKS of LIFE.

I am not aware of any "research" that shows the decision to try drugs of addiction is pathologic or genetic (if the decision to try drugs is a mental disorder, that would mean that two recent presidents have a mental disorder).. Tendency to get addicted (after initial try) is genetic, yes, but it is present in the large majority of people, ie, people who are genetically prone to addiction are three times more common than those who are resistant - so, if addiction is all genetic and no personal decisions are involved, then three quarters, or 240 million, of Americans would be addicted to cocaine. Statistically, I would probably also get readily addicted to coke if I ever tried it. That does not mean I have any kind of disorder.


Dude, does your Columbia Univ vocabulary consist of a single phrase? (ie, you really repeated "throw under the bus" more than enough times). I certainly do not "feel better about myself" because I might get murdered by a street person that needs money for coke, or because the cost of healthcare for the massive number of impoverished addicts increases my own healthcare premium.


Eric Clapton's drug addiction (as well as anything that Bush and Obama might have done) is not my concern because the addicts from their walks of life do not mug for coke money, and pay by themselves for their own rehab. Their addiction is a problem to themselves and their family only, not to me or to the rest of the society.



I have never taken coke, never intend to, but consider it just a regular matter, not an achievement or something that would make me feel better about myself.

Last edited by elnrgby; 07-06-2018 at 03:08 PM..
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