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Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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You hear about continuing racial tensions, and racism on both side, but say for the average person on the street, how do they get along with their fellow South Africans of different races, particularly blacks and whites but also other races? Do they tend not to socialize much outside of work.etc? Is the under-class still mostly black? Is the middle and upper class becoming a lot more black, particularly as whites leave the country?
I've heard stories mostly from a white SA perspective, about how bad racism TOWARDS whites is (not it's not 'reverse racism' which is a misnomer). I'm wondering about the other side of the story. I know many South Africans of all colours are unhappy with the government, what can they do to create a more peaceful, prosperous society?
Well it goes both ways, both parties display a certain amount of hate or resentment towards each other. The upper class or middle class blacks will most likely socialize with whites as they share more things in common based on the environment they are in.
Blacks in the middle class are increasing but not at a huge rate millions are still in poverty but it will take time. The Under class is still mostly black though.
Yes many South Africans are unhappy but blacks still feel some connection with the current ruling party, although they are clearly corrupt blacks are reluctant to vote for the opposition which is mostly a white party(the DA). The DA would make south africa a better country but they dont relate that much to the black people, blacks cant identify with it so they would rather hope that the ANC(ruling party) elects a good leader.
South Africa`s racism is bad but its not that open , you wouldnt see it that much. You would however see the segregation between cultures and races.
My day to day experiences really aren't bad at all. Perhaps I'm just naive but I haven't really experienced too much racism from any side. The work place we have a lot of different people and we all get along pretty well.
We've actually had quite a few discussions about how they feel about racism in the country or if they were personally effected by Apartheid. They (well the people I spoke to) are sitting in their 20s to early 30s and so they weren't ever really effected by it and they have nothing against white people at all.
The majority of the time we actually joke around about how silly some of the "racist" stories are because they're mostly just sensualist media reports. It's interesting because we're divided along some lines when it comes to the typical "African" cultures but then united by the new "South African" culture.
In terms of White genocide and Reverse Apartheid my view is that it's mainly the extremists who make the news but I don't think that's what is happening. For example Julius Malema is very much all talk to try and rally the masses. So promise the world but never deliver. In the end he's more than likely just trying to get rich and I don't think he's really interested in serving the working class like he tries to make people think. Should probably say I don't agree with most of his views
For "reverse Apartheid" I think it's a similar case of the ANC are trying to stay in power as long as possible so they do what they can to ensure that they can appoint their buddies into high paying positions. This gets disguised as trying to solve the mess of Apartheid but in reality they probably could have been a lot further down the road had they not taken such a self servicing approach to governance. I mean you don't have to look further than how many of Jacob Zuma's family is appointed high paying tenders and positions within government to find examples of this. This is however slowly destroying the economy which puts more people into poverty which increases crime. Crime + failing economy then leads to skilled people (could argue that it's mostly white people maybe?) leaving the country.
In general my view on South Africa that I'll always tell foreigners is that it's a great place to visit not not so much to live. The country itself is full of beauty and most people are actually very friendly. I mean if you go to petrol station, you could quite easily jump out your car and start kicking a soccer ball around with the workers there if you really wanted to
You should scan people's previous posts in order to figure a few things about them without having to ask for it.
Look what I found:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dowsieboi
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcricket300
Did White South Africans really think black South Africans are going to forgive them easily for Apartheid? So naive.
They should've asked for the country to divide into two. One black majority and other White majority. Oh well, it's too late now.
This is more naive. As I told the other guy at the beginning of the thread, what you've just suggested is Apartheid, is it not?
And no, why should I expect to be forgiven for something I never did? It's just too generic of a statement and the whole "White guilt" card is overplayed. I don't expect black people (who actually suffered from Apartheid) to all be completely out of poverty and perfectly integrated into society BUT there's no reason for them not to have tried. I have plenty of friends whose parents suffered through Apartheid but they then worked hard, got an education and now THEY are in the same situation I am in. If they could do it, what is the rest who couldn't excuse?
As the saying goes, they need a hand up NOT a hand out. I'm for this idea. Give them the support they need in order to advance so that they can contribute to society and that their kids may possibly enjoy a life they couldn't. Giving them constant hand outs solves nothing.
As AntonioR pointed out with my previous posts, I'm white. Shall I assume that you have a follow up which is going to nullify any opinion I have on the subject of race within South Africa?
My day to day experiences really aren't bad at all. Perhaps I'm just naive but I haven't really experienced too much racism from any side. The work place we have a lot of different people and we all get along pretty well.
We've actually had quite a few discussions about how they feel about racism in the country or if they were personally effected by Apartheid. They (well the people I spoke to) are sitting in their 20s to early 30s and so they weren't ever really effected by it and they have nothing against white people at all.
The majority of the time we actually joke around about how silly some of the "racist" stories are because they're mostly just sensualist media reports. It's interesting because we're divided along some lines when it comes to the typical "African" cultures but then united by the new "South African" culture.
In terms of White genocide and Reverse Apartheid my view is that it's mainly the extremists who make the news but I don't think that's what is happening. For example Julius Malema is very much all talk to try and rally the masses. So promise the world but never deliver. In the end he's more than likely just trying to get rich and I don't think he's really interested in serving the working class like he tries to make people think. Should probably say I don't agree with most of his views
For "reverse Apartheid" I think it's a similar case of the ANC are trying to stay in power as long as possible so they do what they can to ensure that they can appoint their buddies into high paying positions. This gets disguised as trying to solve the mess of Apartheid but in reality they probably could have been a lot further down the road had they not taken such a self servicing approach to governance. I mean you don't have to look further than how many of Jacob Zuma's family is appointed high paying tenders and positions within government to find examples of this. This is however slowly destroying the economy which puts more people into poverty which increases crime. Crime + failing economy then leads to skilled people (could argue that it's mostly white people maybe?) leaving the country.
In general my view on South Africa that I'll always tell foreigners is that it's a great place to visit not not so much to live. The country itself is full of beauty and most people are actually very friendly. I mean if you go to petrol station, you could quite easily jump out your car and start kicking a soccer ball around with the workers there if you really wanted to
I have been in South Africa a few times and have friends living there. They complain mostly about the high-crime which I also noted when I have been in SA. What I hate with SA is that you cannot be outside after dark in major cities like Johannesburg, Pretoria, Durban, Cape Town and Port Elizabeth without getting mugged or even raped or murdered. A friend of mine lives in a gated community outside Johannesburg which is surrounded by high walls, electric fence, cameras and armed guards. In the night he locks all windows and doors. He has Plexiglas windows. I was pretty surprised when I visit him that the security was so tight. We visit a friend of him who lived in his own house. He had high walls, electric fence, Plexiglas windows with incorporated bars and rollerstyle steel shutters, security lights, alarms, razor wires, cameras and his large porch widows with rollerstyle steel shutters. His home was in a peaceful suburb. So why did he have all these security items? Well, because upper-middle class suburbs are targets but criminals in South Africa. My first time I was in SA I was almost robbed in the middle of downtown Cape Town just after the dark. It was like – hey, let’s walking home from the restaurant instead of taking a cab. The others took a cab and walked alone. I was lucky that a larger group of tourists came walking by just when they showed their knife.
I have been in South Africa a few times and have friends living there. They complain mostly about the high-crime which I also noted when I have been in SA. What I hate with SA is that you cannot be outside after dark in major cities like Johannesburg, Pretoria, Durban, Cape Town and Port Elizabeth without getting mugged or even raped or murdered. A friend of mine lives in a gated community outside Johannesburg which is surrounded by high walls, electric fence, cameras and armed guards. In the night he locks all windows and doors. He has Plexiglas windows. I was pretty surprised when I visit him that the security was so tight. We visit a friend of him who lived in his own house. He had high walls, electric fence, Plexiglas windows with incorporated bars and rollerstyle steel shutters, security lights, alarms, razor wires, cameras and his large porch widows with rollerstyle steel shutters. His home was in a peaceful suburb. So why did he have all these security items? Well, because upper-middle class suburbs are targets but criminals in South Africa. My first time I was in SA I was almost robbed in the middle of downtown Cape Town just after the dark. It was like – hey, let’s walking home from the restaurant instead of taking a cab. The others took a cab and walked alone. I was lucky that a larger group of tourists came walking by just when they showed their knife.
Crime is bad but I wouldn't say every time you go outside after dark then it'll happen to you. I'll agree that I'll houses are starting to look and feel more like jails
My last place we had burglar bars on every window, security gates on every doors and an alarm... We got broken into multiple times. Turns out all of that was pretty useless when the guys used a pitch fork to rip the security gate and hack through the door...This of course set the alarm off but the security companies are so slow to respond that they were still able to rob us of our TV, Playstation and all our computer screens :/ We replaced the broken gate and door and then reinforced the security gate with a chain and 3 padlocks. 2 weeks later they tried it again but this time my room mate was at home and managed to scare them off while they were busy with the gate...The often do this hoping that you've gotten insurance to replace all the items they took the week before >.<
My current place I'm in a complex with high walls with electric fencing around the entire complex. Security guards at the gate and they walk around the complex throughout the day and night. I have a security gate on the door and my window on the passage side is reinforced with wire in the glass to prevent smashing. I make sure the door and security gate are locked every night. A lot of the other units in the complex then have burglar bars on the windows and sliding doors. This is also all in a more upper class area (Sandton) >.<
Crime is bad but I wouldn't say every time you go outside after dark then it'll happen to you. I'll agree that I'll houses are starting to look and feel more like jails
My last place we had burglar bars on every window, security gates on every doors and an alarm... We got broken into multiple times. Turns out all of that was pretty useless when the guys used a pitch fork to rip the security gate and hack through the door...This of course set the alarm off but the security companies are so slow to respond that they were still able to rob us of our TV, Playstation and all our computer screens :/ We replaced the broken gate and door and then reinforced the security gate with a chain and 3 padlocks. 2 weeks later they tried it again but this time my room mate was at home and managed to scare them off while they were busy with the gate...The often do this hoping that you've gotten insurance to replace all the items they took the week before >.<
My current place I'm in a complex with high walls with electric fencing around the entire complex. Security guards at the gate and they walk around the complex throughout the day and night. I have a security gate on the door and my window on the passage side is reinforced with wire in the glass to prevent smashing. I make sure the door and security gate are locked every night. A lot of the other units in the complex then have burglar bars on the windows and sliding doors. This is also all in a more upper class area (Sandton) >.<
I asked my friends friend (have him on facebook) what kind of security he has in his house in Johannesburg. Currently this is what he had
1. Outer four meter high security wall, a three meter inner wall and a security court yard with razor wires and electric fence
2. Steel shutters (Rollerstyle) for window and doors
3. Plexiglas windows with incorporated bars (look likes normal windows)
4. Security cameras and security lights
5. Alarms including motion detectors and panic alarm inside and outside
6. High security doors which close and looks automatically
7. Good security firm which also guard the “low-crime” neighborhood.
The criminals operate at night when they break into homes. Often they sit and wait until you come home and before your car port has closed they are inside. A court yard can sometimes help but it can also be pretty dangerous because you are also locked in between both gates. In around 2 percent of home invasions you will end up dead and in 13 percent of the cases you will be physically hurt. Your best bet is a gated community which is guarded 24 hours. According to my friend’s friend – he tells me he has a very secure home but only when it is locked down which it is not under the days when he is home and of course when he leaves or enter his home. This is the moments when invasions occur. He could (as my friend) moved into a gated community like most European expats but he has a South African wife and want to live a “normal” life. He is pretty darn happy that he is paid a Western European salary in a third world country and therefore can afford all the security – which has to be pretty expensive. My friend (also an engineer) was smart enough just to get an apartment within one of these gated community resorts - targeted for European expats. They could live in some far-away suburb in where you still can don’t need all the security but now they live just outside Johannesburg and it is a War Zone. I have been there myself and I couldn’t agree more.
People talk about Cape Town being “safe”? Where is the safety? You cannot walk outside after dark. In countries like Thailand, which poor as mud you can pretty much sleep on the beach. The sad truth is that a lot of Africa (where it is not Ebola outbreaks and civil wars) is pretty safe comparing to South Africa. So, please tell me. What is wrong with South Africa?
Last edited by JohnCarson; 09-27-2014 at 04:55 PM..
/snip
People talk about Cape Town being “safe”? Where is the safety? You cannot walk outside after dark. In countries like Thailand, which poor as mud you can pretty much sleep on the beach. The sad truth is that a lot of Africa (where it is not Ebola outbreaks and civil wars) is pretty safe comparing to South Africa. So, please tell me. What is wrong with South Africa?
Cape Town is safe compared to Johannesburg Unless you're talking about going around the Cape flats of course >.<
My guess is poverty and lack of education lead to crime. Add heavy amounts of poor governance and you end up with a weak police force which only fails to decrease crime. With that same poor governance you then continue to widen the gap between lower, middle and upper classes which just pushes more people into poverty etc etc. Then on top of that add in a sense of entitlement. So your basic "why should I better my life when I can just take what I want *insert some connection to Apartheid here"
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