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Old 11-16-2015, 09:08 AM
 
331 posts, read 245,142 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
Uh, I have just pointed out that there is no evidence presented in Black Athena. It is not up for argument. If you know of an actual Egyptian text that approximates Greek philosophy or government, post it. If not, stand down. The third choice is to make a damn fool of yourself.

It is the Afrocentric way to, when beaten, merely claim that it is all adifferance of oppinion. It isn't. If you are making a claim, you need to present evidence.





There is no more research to be done. That is exactly the point. The Rosetta stone was found centuires ago and all Egyptian texts available have been translated. There is nothing in any of them that equates Greek learning. It is a settled matter unless some massive new evidence is dug up, but I wouldn't my breath. Egyptians had their own philisophy and learning, and they are nothing like Greek.

But again, the idea that there needs to be "more research" is ridiculous. What is it that you propose that they research that has not been researched by thousands already?



Shifting the bar is a common Afrocentic tactic.

For example, they will start out arguing that the Egyptians were once black. Then you will post evidence to show that they were always a mix of haplotypes. Then they will point to the fact that there was always some degree of "E" in them and claim the American "one Drop rule" from the 18th century. Then you will point out that "E" even when unmixed with Eurasian haplotypes does not equal black and that even pure North Africans can look like Middle Easterners due to the similar lattiude. Then they will claim offfense and say that it is not anyone's place to judge what black is, because, after all, what is black? Then you will point out how silly that is to say a group is black when they look middle eastern and that it was not the original argument anyway, and they will start talking about pan-Africanism and how the Egyptians were Africans. You will agree that they were Africans, of course, because they were born there, and then they will sweep up the pot and pretend that they have proven the Egyptians were black.

I have been through it dozens of times. The answer is that the Egytptans were and remain a mixed race people because Eurasians have been back migrating since the stone ages, and they primarily looked like Middle Easterners, because they evolved on a similar lattitude. They don't primarily look black because Egypt is not tropical.

Check out this brilliant thread in which our own Gwilly, who is chiming in on this thread, shifts his argument about Cleopatra at least eight times:

]Was Cleopatra VII "black" or part "black?"


Post 181 Cleopatra was black

Post 280- She was a mix of Native Egyptian and Greek and to say no is racist.

Post 384- Not 100% Greek and can't apply modern racial types (which didn't stop him from doing so)

Post 388- white features are just as authentically African as black

Post 393- the Sahra desert was once green

Post 410- back to can't apply racial types

Post 420- White people are only trying to inflate their egos by pointing out that Cleopatra was Greek, even if it is true

Post 422- I watched a documentary and therefore I am rightabout whatever it is that I am trying to say. (even though I can't communicate what that might be).

Note some of the other borderline mentally ill arguments and blatant dishonesties that are used by others.


I'll take the word of historians whom actually research the subject of Ancient Egypt/Greece over some random guy posting on an internet forum. You're argument is filled with presumptions and guesses. Nothing more. Like I mentioned, Black Athena is one of many topics on the subject. Without hijacking the topic feel free to start another thread If you disagree.

Last edited by jkc2j; 11-16-2015 at 09:36 AM..
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Old 11-16-2015, 09:37 AM
AFP
 
6,898 posts, read 4,242,029 times
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Why take anyone's word for anything. Why not present all of the facts and give everyone the opportunity to dissect them?
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Old 11-16-2015, 09:56 AM
 
331 posts, read 245,142 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFP View Post
Why take anyone's word for anything. Why not present all of the facts and give everyone the opportunity to dissect them?

Mainly because I have job lol. Bernal goes into quite a bit of depth so it'll take some time to summarize everything. If there's something in particular on the topic you'd like to discuss, feel free and I'll respond with as best of an answer I can.

His paper focuses on three models, the model he calls the Aryan Model. This model states that the Greek civilization was a cultural mixture following the conquest from the north by Indo-European speaking Greeks of the earlier ‘Pre-Hellenistic’ peoples. There was the Ancient Model which was the idea that Greece had originally been inhabited by Pelasgian (“the name of the prehistoric people of Greece and Asia Minor who occupied Greece before the Hellenes”) and other primitive tribes. Civilized by Egyptian and Phoenician settlers. Lastly there is his model, based on the ancient model but with minor additions.
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Old 11-16-2015, 09:57 AM
 
16 posts, read 8,635 times
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lol even us real EGyptians do not claim Greeks learned from us
we admire Greek philosophers as they are, we dont have to claim we taught them in order to make our history look better
we know we influenced Greeks and got influenced by them
they were two ancient civilizations who were the bets of their times and they admired each other
the fact that Alexander declared himself Pharaoh proves he admired and respected Egyptian culture and achievements
funny thing is that afrocentrics talk about Greeks learning from Egyptians as if Egyptians being black is a proven fact already and now they moved from trying to prove Egyptians being black to proving Egyptians taught Greeks
listen afrocentrics, neither Egyptians were black nor they taught Greeks everything they know, we were distinct civilizations that arose away from each other and with Alexander's invasion we met together and learned about each other
ancient Egypt and ancient Greece are very interesting, althought i must be mad that Alexander occupied Egypt i am very amused seeing how such very interesting and different ancient Civilizations made when they mingled
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvgnz1KnLhw

Last edited by WWlll; 11-16-2015 at 10:11 AM..
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Old 11-16-2015, 10:27 AM
 
3,510 posts, read 2,518,923 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j View Post
I'll take the word of historians whom actually research the subject of Ancient Egypt/Greece over some random guy posting on an internet forum. You're argument is filled with presumptions and guesses. Nothing more. Like I mentioned, Black Athena is one of many topics on the subject. Without hijacking the topic feel free to start another thread If you disagree.
So you have chosen the third route--to make a damned fool of yourself.

If you took the word of those who researched it, then you would know that Greek learning is independent of Egypt. Martin Bernal was an Asian linguist with no expertise in Egypt or even history,and presented no evidence in his book.

If you think differnently, then please enlighten us as to what that evidence was/is?

Your people were stuck in West Africa until others came and got them. That is the reality. But you want to re-write all of world history with two enormous delusions:

1) The Egyptians were black even though the entire world can look at their depictions and see that mostly they were not.

2) The Egytpians were the originators of Greek philosophy, even though there is not a single Egyptian test that would indicate that it is so.

Waiting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j View Post
Mainly because I have job lol. Bernal goes into quite a bit of depth so it'll take some time to summarize everything. If there's something in particular on the topic you'd like to discuss, feel free and I'll respond with as best of an answer I can. .
He goes into no depth. He merely talks about his theory without prsenting evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j View Post
His paper focuses on three models, the model he calls the Aryan Model. This model states that the Greek civilization was a cultural mixture following the conquest from the north by Indo-European speaking Greeks of the earlier ‘Pre-Hellenistic’ peoples. There was the Ancient Model which was the idea that Greece had originally been inhabited by Pelasgian (“the name of the prehistoric people of Greece and Asia Minor who occupied Greece before the Hellenes”) and other primitive tribes. Civilized by Egyptian and Phoenician settlers. Lastly there is his model, based on the ancient model but with minor additions.
This is not evidence, this is posturing. Bernal puts his posture out there and leavbes the evidence to future generations. Thus far, none have produced any evidence.

Part of the problem is tha tyou do not know what evidence is. Youhonestly think that evidence is wishing for somthing to be true.

So let us see the evidence. Let's do the Habeus Corpus. What Egyptian test are you citing?

Last edited by cachibatches; 11-16-2015 at 10:37 AM..
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Old 11-16-2015, 10:58 AM
 
331 posts, read 245,142 times
Reputation: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
So you have chosen the third route--to make a damned fool of yourself.

If you took the word of those who researched it, then you would know that Greek learning is independent of Egypt. Martin Bernal was an Asian linguist with no expertise in Egypt or even history,and presented no evidence in his book.

If you think differnently, then please enlighten us as to what that evidence was/is?

Your people were stuck in West Africa until others came and got them. That is the reality. But you want to re-write all of world history with two enormous delusions:

1) The Egyptians were black even though the entire world can look at their depictions and see that mostly they were not.

2) The Egytpians were the originators of Greek philosophy, even though there is not a single Egyptian test that would indicate that it is so.

Waiting.



He goes into no depth. He merely talks about his theory without prsenting evidence.



This is not evidence, this is posturing. Bernal puts his posture out there and leavbes the evidence to future generations. Thus far, none have produced any evidence.

Part of the problem is tha tyou do not know what evidence is. Youhonestly think that evidence is wishing for somthing to be true.

So let us see the evidence. Let's do the Habeus Corpus. What Egyptian test are you citing?

More presumptions lol. If you disagree, fine. I know what evidence is but when speaking about topics such as this there is no conclusive evidence, only theories based on what data is currently available. Bernal mainly presented a theory based on what is available. Nothing more. Never said it was absolute fact. Was an interesting read for me non the less. My people were stuck in West Africa? Dude, just no. I'm not even going to bother entertaining that statement. The world can see that the Ancient Egyptians were not black? News to me lol. Define black? Skull shape? Wide noses? Thick lips? lol
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Old 11-16-2015, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Prince George's County, Maryland
6,212 posts, read 7,392,965 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j View Post
What am I in denial of? That the Ancients Egyptians were white/European? If that's the case then no, I don't agree that that they were. Call me Afrocentric or what have you. Doesn't bother me. I'm a student of knowledge. From the books I'm read and from what I've seen, it makes it difficult for the case to state otherwise. Regaredless of what phenotypical characteristics you deem otherwise. An East Indian is no less Asian than someone from Japan. An African is an African east, west, north, central and south.
The only time the Kemetians (Egyptians as the Greeks called them, their indigenous name for themselves were KMT under their Afro-Asiatic mdr ntr or Medu Neter language. Egypt is also a Greek term, the indigenous name for this powerful Afrikan kingdom was Kemet, Khemet, Ta Mery, or Ta Sety) can be truly classified as a "mixed race" society is during the Ptolemy dynasties where the Greeks and the Romans (both of whom were actual mixed race societies with Black, Caucasoid, and Mulatto citizens, most especially the latter two) came into the picture in a more significant way and intermixing with the indigenous Black Kemetians was becoming more common thanks in large part to the Greeks. The Black Kemetians living in Lower Egypt (northern Egypt) during the era of the Ptolemies and centuries after were for the most part eventually mixed with invading Libyans (Black and Mulatto), Persians (Black and Mulatto, the Persian Empire was quite possibly Kemet's most hated rival), Greeks, Romans, Arabs (indigenous Blacks/Negroids of Arabia), and Western Europeans (Caucasoid). That is where the mixed or Mulatto people of modern day "Arabs" come from. Most unmixed descendants of the indigenous Black Kemetians can be mostly found in Upper Egypt (southern Egypt) and a few parts of Middle Egypt sticking to most of their cultural customs though some have adopted Arabic as their language. Other Afrikan groups who are descendant and/or related to the Kemetians/Black Egyptians include the Nubians (southern Egypt, Sudan, and South Sudan), the Beja/Bejawi, the Bisharin, the Afar, Berbers (originally Black Afrikan but they too are now a mixed people), etc.

The modern Black Kemetians, despite hundreds of years of inter-mixture with foreign invaders, have managed to retain the same blood type (Group B) as the populations of West Afrika on the Atlantic Seaboard as opposed to the A2 Group characteristic of the Caucasoids prior to any crossbreeding.

It's also interesting to note that a significant amount of antiquity of Ancient Kemet that are on display in most museums and art galleries worldwide have ties to Ptolemy Egypt which could be one of the reasons why there are those of an ignorant and/or Eurocentric mindset who assume the Kemetians were always a "mixed race" people, Caucasoid, or even better, "sun-tanned white people". It's about as ridiculous as the so-called "Egyptian Walk" Eye seriously doubt the quality of life for Caucasoids/white people would be bearable under the Saharan Sun with significant exposure to the high UV radiation waves. It would've been much more than just the threat of an excessive sun-tan that they would've had to worry about, particularly on account that the Kemetians wore light linen clothing but their bodies were not completely covered even some of the Kemetians of higher social class status (lower classes often had minimal to no clothing at all). A good number of them had exposed skin and adapted well to the Saharan climate.

There's a lot more to be touched upon but Eye will touch upon them later or you can DM if you'd like jkc2j

'Til then,

KMT
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Old 11-16-2015, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Prince George's County, Maryland
6,212 posts, read 7,392,965 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j View Post
More presumptions lol. If you disagree, fine. I know what evidence is but when speaking about topics such as this there is no conclusive evidence, only theories based on what data is currently available. Bernal mainly presented a theory based on what is available. Nothing more. Never said it was absolute fact. Was an interesting read for me non the less. My people were stuck in West Africa? Dude, just no. I'm not even going to bother entertaining that statement. The world can see that the Ancient Egyptians were not black? News to me lol. Define black? Skull shape? Wide noses? Thick lips? lol
As well as a particular girth that seems to be characteristic of Black Afrikans, a bit of a natural potbelly of varying size if you will. Akhenaten (the "heretic Pharaoh" known for trying to establish a monotheistic religion of Aten and also the husband to Queen Nefertiti herself) is a good example of this along with the nose, torso structure, and thick lips.
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Old 11-16-2015, 11:36 AM
 
3,510 posts, read 2,518,923 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j View Post
More presumptions lol. If you disagree, fine. I know what evidence is but when speaking about topics such as this there is no conclusive evidence, only theories based on what data is currently available. Bernal mainly presented a theory based on what is available. Nothing more. Never said it was absolute fact. Was an interesting read for me non the less. My people were stuck in West Africa? Dude, just no. I'm not even going to bother entertaining that statement. The world can see that the Ancient Egyptians were not black? News to me lol. Define black? Skull shape? Wide noses? Thick lips? lol
You don't know what "presumptions" means. What Bernal does is presumptions.

I am asking for evidence. Evidence, as accepted by historians, would be Egyptian texts that delineate what was later known as Greek learning.

So where are they? Please produce them or stand down. To keep arguing is to make a fool of yourslef.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tcave360 View Post
The only time the Kemetians (Egyptians as the Greeks called them, their indigenous name for themselves were KMT under their Afro-Asiatic mdr ntr or Medu Neter language. Egypt is also a Greek term, the indigenous name for this powerful Afrikan kingdom was Kemet, Khemet, Ta Mery, or Ta Sety) can be truly classified as a "mixed race" society is during the Ptolemy dynasties where the Greeks and the Romans (both of whom were actual mixed race societies with Black, Caucasoid, and Mulatto citizens, most especially the latter two) came into the picture in a more significant way and intermixing with the indigenous Black Kemetians was becoming more common thanks in large part to the Greeks. The Black Kemetians living in Lower Egypt (northern Egypt) during the era of the Ptolemies and centuries after were for the most part eventually mixed with invading Libyans (Black and Mulatto), Persians (Black and Mulatto, the Persian Empire was quite possibly Kemet's most hated rival), Greeks, Romans, Arabs (indigenous Blacks/Negroids of Arabia), and Western Europeans (Caucasoid). That is where the mixed or Mulatto people of modern day "Arabs" come from. Most unmixed descendants of the indigenous Black Kemetians can be mostly found in Upper Egypt (southern Egypt) and a few parts of Middle Egypt sticking to most of their cultural customs though some have adopted Arabic as their language. Other Afrikan groups who are descendant and/or related to the Kemetians/Black Egyptians include the Nubians (southern Egypt, Sudan, and South Sudan), the Beja/Bejawi, the Bisharin, the Afar, Berbers (originally Black Afrikan but they too are now a mixed people), etc.

The modern Black Kemetians, despite hundreds of years of inter-mixture with foreign invaders, have managed to retain the same blood type (Group B) as the populations of West Afrika on the Atlantic Seaboard as opposed to the A2 Group characteristic of the Caucasoids prior to any crossbreeding.

It's also interesting to note that a significant amount of antiquity of Ancient Kemet that are on display in most museums and art galleries worldwide have ties to Ptolemy Egypt which could be one of the reasons why there are those of an ignorant and/or Eurocentric mindset who assume the Kemetians were always a "mixed race" people, Caucasoid, or even better, "sun-tanned white people". It's about as ridiculous as the so-called "Egyptian Walk" Eye seriously doubt the quality of life for Caucasoids/white people would be bearable under the Saharan Sun with significant exposure to the high UV radiation waves. It would've been much more than just the threat of an excessive sun-tan that they would've had to worry about, particularly on account that the Kemetians wore light linen clothing but their bodies were not completely covered even some of the Kemetians of higher social class status (lower classes often had minimal to no clothing at all). A good number of them had exposed skin and adapted well to the Saharan climate.
As we have already covered with scientifics studies, the Egytpians are the same now as they have always been, except a shade darker do to the Arab slave trade.

Also, the Egyptians referred to their civilization as "the two lands." Kmt referred to farm land.

Your ancestors are from West Africa. Not Egypt.
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Old 11-16-2015, 11:38 AM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
8,483 posts, read 10,472,879 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j View Post
More presumptions lol. If you disagree, fine. I know what evidence is but when speaking about topics such as this there is no conclusive evidence, only theories based on what data is currently available. Bernal mainly presented a theory based on what is available. Nothing more. Never said it was absolute fact. Was an interesting read for me non the less. My people were stuck in West Africa? Dude, just no. I'm not even going to bother entertaining that statement. The world can see that the Ancient Egyptians were not black? News to me lol. Define black? Skull shape? Wide noses? Thick lips? lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcave360 View Post
The only time the Kemetians (Egyptians as the Greeks called them, their indigenous name for themselves were KMT under their Afro-Asiatic mdr ntr or Medu Neter language. Egypt is also a Greek term, the indigenous name for this powerful Afrikan kingdom was Kemet, Khemet, Ta Mery, or Ta Sety) can be truly classified as a "mixed race" society is during the Ptolemy dynasties where the Greeks and the Romans (both of whom were actual mixed race societies with Black, Caucasoid, and Mulatto citizens, most especially the latter two) came into the picture in a more significant way and intermixing with the indigenous Black Kemetians was becoming more common thanks in large part to the Greeks. The Black Kemetians living in Lower Egypt (northern Egypt) during the era of the Ptolemies and centuries after were for the most part eventually mixed with invading Libyans (Black and Mulatto), Persians (Black and Mulatto, the Persian Empire was quite possibly Kemet's most hated rival), Greeks, Romans, Arabs (indigenous Blacks/Negroids of Arabia), and Western Europeans (Caucasoid). That is where the mixed or Mulatto people of modern day "Arabs" come from. Most unmixed descendants of the indigenous Black Kemetians can be mostly found in Upper Egypt (southern Egypt) and a few parts of Middle Egypt sticking to most of their cultural customs though some have adopted Arabic as their language. Other Afrikan groups who are descendant and/or related to the Kemetians/Black Egyptians include the Nubians (southern Egypt, Sudan, and South Sudan), the Beja/Bejawi, the Bisharin, the Afar, Berbers (originally Black Afrikan but they too are now a mixed people), etc.

The modern Black Kemetians, despite hundreds of years of inter-mixture with foreign invaders, have managed to retain the same blood type (Group B) as the populations of West Afrika on the Atlantic Seaboard as opposed to the A2 Group characteristic of the Caucasoids prior to any crossbreeding.

It's also interesting to note that a significant amount of antiquity of Ancient Kemet that are on display in most museums and art galleries worldwide have ties to Ptolemy Egypt which could be one of the reasons why there are those of an ignorant and/or Eurocentric mindset who assume the Kemetians were always a "mixed race" people, Caucasoid, or even better, "sun-tanned white people". It's about as ridiculous as the so-called "Egyptian Walk" Eye seriously doubt the quality of life for Caucasoids/white people would be bearable under the Saharan Sun with significant exposure to the high UV radiation waves. It would've been much more than just the threat of an excessive sun-tan that they would've had to worry about, particularly on account that the Kemetians wore light linen clothing but their bodies were not completely covered even some of the Kemetians of higher social class status (lower classes often had minimal to no clothing at all). A good number of them had exposed skin and adapted well to the Saharan climate.
This^^
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