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Old 01-22-2015, 11:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dopo View Post
All you have to do is look at a map and see how far Sudan is from Egypt (right next to it)
If you are not going to read through the studies posted, it is probably best that you at least read through the thread before commenting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dopo View Post
aside from the fact that there are egyptian pyramids in Sudan
Sudan's pyramids were built hundreds, even thousands of years after Egypt's in direct imitation of Egyptian culture. They are fine constructions in their own right, but lets us put them in context.
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Old 01-22-2015, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
Sudan's pyramids were built hundreds, even thousands of years after Egypt's in direct imitation of Egyptian culture. They are fine constructions in their own right, but lets us put them in context.
Even with that being said, Nubian culture predates Egyptian culture. Nubians and Egyptians are sort of like cousins when it comes to their ethnic groups and civilizations, similar to how the relationship is between the Greek and Roman civilizations.
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Old 01-22-2015, 12:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
Even with that being said, Nubian culture predates Egyptian culture.
But the things that make Egypt great and remembered, writing, monumental architecture, etc. are Egyptian, not Nubian. The Nubians obtained these things later in imitation of Egypt. Even the oldest depiction of the white crown is now firmly known to be Egyptian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
Nubians and Egyptians are sort of like cousins when it comes to their ethnic groups and civilizations, similar to how the relationship is between the Greek and Roman civilizations.
This is what is being sold lately, but it is badly overstated. Egypt had influences from the South, and from Asia. It was after all, two lands, Upper Egypt (in the south) where the Naqada culture was related to Nubia, and the Merimde culture in the North related to Asia.

But again, the Nubians are not your ancestors any more than the Egyptians. If you are proud of their accomplishments are fellow "black" Africans, that is great. but let us once again examine the silly drift of premise:

1. We start off talking about whether Tut was black
2. We move to Egypt being a black civilization
3. We pivot to "black people get to choose whatever they want as their culture"
4. We pivot to "black people can study anything they want"
5. We settle (thus far) on "Egypt has connections with Nubia.

How many times are we going to play this game? The bottom line is that Tut was not black, and Egypt was not a black civilization, it was a civilization that had a black minority, just like modern day America, or even Britain. That is great that you like the Nubians (they are actually one of my favorite topics, and a great people in their own right) but Nubians have a separate and distinct cultural identity to Egypt. The Egyptians not only depicted themselves differently, but, of most of Egyptian history, were openly antagonistic with them.
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Old 10-22-2015, 07:35 PM
 
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Funny how Africans have no second thoughts on Ancient Egyptians... only some non Africans seek to establish a technologically "white population" in among indigenious africans who by definition are black. First of all A.E called themselves blacks, KMT. Classic deception is to say " black land" because of the soil of the nile. Ancient Greek and Roman historians have written physical descriptions of AEs as blacks. Even Count Volney hate to admit it , AE race was a negro race.
As xenophobic as AE, they claimed thier ancestoral home as the Land of Punt. Much debate on the location of the Land of Punt,,, between Ethiopia, Somalia and Eritrea. Scientist have concluded Eritrea was the land of Punt ( indigenous African , black people). Also in ancient times, only Africans practiced female circumsion. AE practiced female circumsion.
Anthropologist and scientist believe the people most resemblance of the AE, are a black nomadic people called Beja ( found in Egypt, Ethiopia, and Eritrea). Beja believe they are descendants of Sekhmet and a human.

Getting to King Tut, some scientist based on his dna haplotype R1b1, called him white/anglo saxon. Here the key, he hotspot is Cameroon ( a black indigenious), R1b1* was observed at a frequency of up to 95% in some tribes of northern Cameroon (like the Kirdi), and about 15% nationwide. I guess by definition , Cameroonians are predominantly anglo saxon ,not African.


URL: King Tut is of Haplogroup R1b1a2 (Celtic)
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Old 10-23-2015, 07:10 AM
 
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The whole concept of Pan Africanism only exists in the US, black people in Africa do not get along with eachother. Afrocentrism was implemented in the US to improve the self-esteem of African Americans who have suffered years of oppression and abuse. Ancient Egypt is often regarded as a cradle of civilization. Whether or not Ancient Egyptians were black is a moot point, African Americans should forget about the past and focus on their communities and contemporary problems.
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Old 10-23-2015, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Sandpoint, Idaho
2,897 posts, read 5,277,362 times
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Such an old and troubling discussion.

What are the facts
1. Egyptians are mixed race and a culture that continues to mix in race due to being a cross roads of civilizations.
2. Egypt had a long and varied relation ship with Nubia, much of it in present day Sudan, a country whose people have more African DNA than Egypt, which has some.
3. Due to shameful treasure hunters who destroyed considerable archaeological evidence, we know very little about the ancient Nubians relative to ancient Egyptians.
4. Ancient Egyptian depicted some Africans very differently from Egyptians and other tribes. But it is not 100% clear where exactly these clearly African people came from.
5. Of the 300K African slaves brought to the US, most if not all left from the West Coast of Africa.
6. Some slaves were captured "in the interior." However, common sense dictates most would have still come from the innermost of coastal countries since the economics suggest that it would have been too expensive to bring them to the West from North Africa. Some likely came from central Africa via navigable rivers.

When all is said and done, the African American fantasy of connections to Ancient Egypt are misplaced. That said, I think part of their motivation is to counter equally specious European claims that the great African civilizations were made by White Europeans or one of the lost tribes of Israel. That ancient Egyptians might have had European DNA is just as insignificant that those ancient Egyptians having African DNA. Both are highly likely and both equally irrelevant for such a racially heterogenous people.

I would think that African pride should be focused on the incredible masks such as those of the Yoruba people found at Ife, Nigeria. These bronze, brass, and copper masks are beautiful and like similar masks from Benin suggest the skills of a highly advanced civilization. They date from roughly the 13th-14th century A.D. (or C.E.). While it is likely they bear some influence from global civilization which by that time had reach the West Coast of Africa, they are still African made by Africans about Africans.

Hopefully with more scholarship on pre-European Africa, the legends of African cultures can enable in the diaspora the kind of emotional pride that is now received by Egypt.

S.
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Old 10-23-2015, 02:07 PM
 
3,496 posts, read 2,510,345 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger101 View Post
Funny how Africans have no second thoughts on Ancient Egyptians... only some non Africans seek to establish a technologically "white population" in among indigenious africans who by definition are black.
Did you comepltely miss post ten in which I posted a wall of scientific evidence to debunk this? The Egytpians are the same peopele that they have always been except with a bit more black now due to the Arab slave trade.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger101 View Post
First of all A.E called themselves blacks, KMT. Classic deception is to say " black land" because of the soil of the nile.
Kemet refers to black soil, just as Dshrt, or red lands, refers to barren soils. That is the word that desert comes from. The Egyptians had various words for terrains. They refered to their own nation as "the two lands."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger101 View Post
Ancient Greek and Roman historians have written physical descriptions of AEs as blacks.
No, no they did not. It would help if you actually read some Greek and Roman texts instead of getting your information off of Afrocentric websites.

They refered to the Egyptians as "melanchroes," which refers to swarthy whites. In the Odyssey, Odysseus is refered to as "melanhroes."

Herodotus actually distuniguised between the black pharaohs and the Egyptian. Again, it pays to actually read the soruces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger101 View Post
Even Count Volney hate to admit it , AE race was a negro race.
Count Voleny was not an anthropologist, did no scientific investigation, recanted his statement, and is anyway hundreds of years out of date.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger101 View Post
As xenophobic as AE, they claimed thier ancestoral home as the Land of Punt. Much debate on the location of the Land of Punt,,, between Ethiopia, Somalia and Eritrea. Scientist have concluded Eritrea was the land of Punt ( indigenous African , black people). Also in ancient times, only Africans practiced female circumsion. AE practiced female circumsion.
Most eople have bogus creation myths. The Romans said they were descended from Trojans. No one beleives that either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger101 View Post
Anthropologist and scientist believe the people most resemblance of the AE, are a black nomadic people called Beja ( found in Egypt, Ethiopia, and Eritrea). Beja believe they are descendants of Sekhmet and a human.
As demonstrated in post ten, most believe that they were approximately the same people that they have always been.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger101 View Post
Getting to King Tut, some scientist based on his dna haplotype R1b1, called him white/anglo saxon. Here the key, he hotspot is Cameroon ( a black indigenious), R1b1* was observed at a frequency of up to 95% in some tribes of northern Cameroon (like the Kirdi), and about 15% nationwide. I guess by definition , Cameroonians are predominantly anglo saxon ,not African.


URL: King Tut is of Haplogroup R1b1a2 (Celtic)
All the nonsense about Tut one way or the other was basaed on the JAMA work of Albert Zink, which was admitted falsified. He could not duplicate his results, and was likely analyzing contamination. The subjsequent DNA tribes work was extrapolated from the JAMA work, as commerical DNA testing firms are not given access to Egyptian mummies.

We have dealt with this nonesense now dozens of times of these threads.
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Old 10-23-2015, 02:40 PM
 
56,550 posts, read 80,847,919 times
Reputation: 12490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandpointian View Post
Such an old and troubling discussion.

What are the facts
1. Egyptians are mixed race and a culture that continues to mix in race due to being a cross roads of civilizations.
2. Egypt had a long and varied relation ship with Nubia, much of it in present day Sudan, a country whose people have more African DNA than Egypt, which has some.
3. Due to shameful treasure hunters who destroyed considerable archaeological evidence, we know very little about the ancient Nubians relative to ancient Egyptians.
4. Ancient Egyptian depicted some Africans very differently from Egyptians and other tribes. But it is not 100% clear where exactly these clearly African people came from.
5. Of the 300K African slaves brought to the US, most if not all left from the West Coast of Africa.
6. Some slaves were captured "in the interior." However, common sense dictates most would have still come from the innermost of coastal countries since the economics suggest that it would have been too expensive to bring them to the West from North Africa. Some likely came from central Africa via navigable rivers.

When all is said and done, the African American fantasy of connections to Ancient Egypt are misplaced. That said, I think part of their motivation is to counter equally specious European claims that the great African civilizations were made by White Europeans or one of the lost tribes of Israel. That ancient Egyptians might have had European DNA is just as insignificant that those ancient Egyptians having African DNA. Both are highly likely and both equally irrelevant for such a racially heterogenous people.

I would think that African pride should be focused on the incredible masks such as those of the Yoruba people found at Ife, Nigeria. These bronze, brass, and copper masks are beautiful and like similar masks from Benin suggest the skills of a highly advanced civilization. They date from roughly the 13th-14th century A.D. (or C.E.). While it is likely they bear some influence from global civilization which by that time had reach the West Coast of Africa, they are still African made by Africans about Africans.

Hopefully with more scholarship on pre-European Africa, the legends of African cultures can enable in the diaspora the kind of emotional pride that is now received by Egypt.

S.
There is that as well, but I also think it has to do with the geography aspect as well, where Northern Africa gets to be "claimed" by Europeans. So, while people seem to focus on the Pan African myth/misconception, there is hardly any focus on the Eurocentric narrative in regards to history. one gets to be right, while the other HAS to be wrong. Sounds to familiar and can reek of "supremacy".
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Old 10-23-2015, 08:44 PM
 
6 posts, read 7,198 times
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Cacheable,So you think the majority of black presence in Egypt was due to Arab slave trade. Incredible. This shows you have no idea of the history of Egypt,
Masses of Arabs entered Egypt and spread to the rest of North Africa in 630 AD during islamization. If you are thinking Arabs are indigenous to Africa, lay off the medical marijuana.Guess what else happen during islamization/, During the rule of the Ummayad Caliph Hisham (724-743) in the year 732 Arabs were settled in Egypt to enlarge the Arab presence in the country. The Arab historians see this development as the beginning of the arabization of the rural population of Egypt. Later on in the Abbasid period in 830 two tribes were settled in Upper Egypt, i.e. the tribe of Kenz [sic] and Hillal. These settlement activities indicate a growing Arab population in Egypt. The individual and voluntary settlements in the country are not accounted for in the report of the state sponsored settlements
2. Ancient egyptian language is not dead, related to Wolof, Coptic language. KMT means (black)
The oldest, official name for Egypt, by the Ancient Egyptians themselves, is Kmt (Keme) or Black. The contemporary Egyptian (Coptic) words for Egypt are (depending on the particular dialect): Kame, Keme, Kimi, and Kheme – all of which mean Black. Also in Coptic Egyptian we have, kem, kame, kmi, kmem, kmom or “to be black.”
The Ancient Egyptians referred to themselves as Kmtjw (Kemetu) and Kmmw (Kmemu) or Black people (In contemporary Egyptian: Kmemou=Black people). In Wolof, Khem means “burnt to black.”
3. Unfortunately if you read Greek and Roman texts , you would already know the following:

Herodotus, a Greek writer in the 5th century B.C. claims that "the people of Colchis must be Egyptians because like them they are black-skinned and wooly-haired." (History, Book II.) The interesting thing about what Herodotus wrote is that had he believed the Egyptians to be any other color than black like other Africans he could have chosen other Greek words than the one he chose. His word is melaschroes, black-skinned. If Herodotus thought the Egyptians were white he would have used leucochroes. Had they been simply brown, like so many African Americans, he may have used phrenychroes, but he chose the word melaschroes. This word comes from the same root as Melanesia, the black island, or melanite, a black garnet. The ancient Greek use of "melas" was precise. Egypt is in Africa. Why shouldn't the ancient Egyptians be anything other than black?

The Greek philosopher Aristotle writes in the 4th century B.C. in Physiognomonica that the "Egyptians and Ethiopians were very black

Count Voleny was a french scholar who stated""that this race of Black men, today our slave and the object of our scorn, is the very race to which we owe our arts, sciences, and even the use of speech! upon seeing the sphinx. I can only find youtube video of his recantment.
3. “Most eople have bogus creation myths. The Romans said they were descended from Trojans. No one beleives that either”.
Cmon, i am not talking of folklore. I am talking science.
Beja People of Sudan, Eritrea and Egypt are an ancient people, who are
linguistically, the closest kin to the ancient Egyptians. It is said that there is as
much as a 70% correspondence between the Beja language and Ancient Egyptian!

Egyptologist, Emile Brugsch traced the clan of the Khawr kiji Beja through the
matriarchal Female line to the 20th Dynasty.
4. “s demonstrated in post ten, most believe that they were approximately the same people that they have always been.
Genetic analysis of modern Egyptians reveals that they have paternal lineages common to indigenous North-East African populations primarily (Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco), and to Middle Eastern peoples to a lesser extent—these lineages would have spread during the Neolithic and were maintained by the predynastic period.

Ancient Egyptians had a E1B1B1A haplotype, found in Indigenious African black population. E1B1B1A is believed to originated in Southern Egypt area 20,000 years ago, near Kom Ombo area , one hour from Aswan where my mother was born and raised. Most Cu****ic speakers, hornets have E1B1B1A haplotype.
Look up tropical adaptation and how the ancient egyptian with their body type were tropical blacks not eurasian. Bit about myself... I am African ..Ethiopian father ( Amhara/ Gurage) and Egyptian mother ( A nubian). Thus not afrocentric , just tired of self proclaimed ( arrogant non african ) experts like yourself, on others history. Your motivation is based on the idea that blacks ( Africans ) other than wearing loincloth and dancing around with spears threatens your self identity or self worth.
Why not come to Africa , Egypt better yet tell us about history. I am sure even my mother who was twenty when she was forced with Aswan dam construction , force moved back to Aswan. While other nubians lost their home, were forced relocated to southern Egypt. I am sure both my mother and fellow nubians would love to hear your bull****.
Join egyptsearch if cannot travel, I am sure everyone there ,would love to hear history according to you.
I will not address this anymore with you here, too busy and learned long ago..to fight ignorance is waste of time and thankless job.
Start reading and if you want to debate more about it, come join on egyptsearch forum and I will get the popcorn ready.

Last edited by Tiger101; 10-23-2015 at 08:55 PM.. Reason: to address someone in particular
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Old 10-23-2015, 09:36 PM
 
Location: Sandpoint, Idaho
2,897 posts, read 5,277,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
There is that as well, but I also think it has to do with the geography aspect as well, where Northern Africa gets to be "claimed" by Europeans. So, while people seem to focus on the Pan African myth/misconception, there is hardly any focus on the Eurocentric narrative in regards to history. one gets to be right, while the other HAS to be wrong. Sounds to familiar and can reek of "supremacy".
Just because John Doe claims Northern Africa does not make it so nor does it imply that all Europeans make such a claim.

We can either chose to elevate the discourse and use empirical evidence and logic as our guidance force or we can devolve into old racial claims that have no basis in anything other than fantasy of those desperate on both sides who seek to hold on to their fantastic claims.

I was not privy to Europeans claims on North Africa. I am sure given the extensive Mediterranean trade net work that the cities that hugged the Mediterranean rim had plenty of mixing. There, one sees so much mixing over which I am sure has been pretty common for the past 2000 years. As to the civilization, we have plenty of evidence of Roman influence, but I am sure there was lots of interesting things going on before and after. Both sets of facts undermine simple claims to anything.

When one looks closely at the faceless Moroccan and Algerian runners, one can note almost immediately how much they are African and Arab descendants (and sometimes European as well).

Finally, I think the complication of stuff means one must go at these things one factor at a time. If someone of note was pushing a Eurocentric narrative, I would listen to his entire position before judging him and his arguments. This I would follow with due diligence in order to poke holes in his arguments.

I do not think it serves much purpose to launch into other arguments at the same time. It is a sure way to end conversations and push us further away from each other. At the same time, if those anti-Africans are likely to launch into specious arguments, then of course they should be roundly criticized. One at a time allows us to sink are teeth into the arguments and supporting data.

When instead people launch into arguments, they must have some relevance to the actual debate at hand. If not even the good content gets lost in mudslinging. At least that is what I value. When I watch young adults and pundits argue race today, I find the approach to debate enraging, depressing and almost entirely ignorant and glib. Science is dispassionate and careful. If all were to adopt such mannerisms, we would not always through the baby out with the bath water.

S.
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