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Old 11-11-2015, 08:28 AM
 
16 posts, read 8,598 times
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Quote:
In your text books does it mention whether Modern Egyptians are directly related to Ancient Egyptians?
yepp
ofcourse, i wonder why would anyone even question this issue, i see no one asking does modern Greeks teach their childern they are descended from Ancient Greeks, or does modern Italians teach their childern they are descended from Ancient Romans, or does modern chinese teach their childern they are descended from Ancient chinese ?
Egypt's history as we egyptians always knew it is we are just egyptians , we reverted to Christianity and became called Copts and later 90% of us converted to Islam and became called Muslims, the ones who remained Christian kept the name Copt for themselves and they do not like to be refered to as Arabs since only muslim Egyptians are okay with the Arab identity
anyway, changing our language or religion didnt change our demographics, this is our history as we knew it and documented by us and surrounding countries and this is what modern science and genetic studies came to confirm, it is not even a debatable issue for us, 2 years ago i discovered about afrocentrism and was shocked at the amount of lies and fallacies and insults and hostility being made towards us by those shameless deluded history revisionist cult
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Old 11-11-2015, 09:07 AM
AFP
 
6,898 posts, read 4,232,517 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WWlll View Post
yepp
ofcourse, i wonder why would anyone even question this issue, i see no one asking does modern Greeks teach their childern they are descended from Ancient Greeks, or does modern Italians teach their childern they are descended from Ancient Romans, or does modern chinese teach their childern they are descended from Ancient chinese ?
Egypt's history as we egyptians always knew it is we are just egyptians , we reverted to Christianity and became called Copts and later 90% of us converted to Islam and became called Muslims, the ones who remained Christian kept the name Copt for themselves and they do not like to be refered to as Arabs since only muslim Egyptians are okay with the Arab identity
anyway, changing our language or religion didnt change our demographics, this is our history as we knew it and documented by us and surrounding countries and this is what modern science and genetic studies came to confirm, it is not even a debatable issue for us, 2 years ago i discovered about afrocentrism and was shocked at the amount of lies and fallacies and insults and hostility being made towards us by those shameless deluded history revisionist cult
I don't want to offend you I also find it irritating that Afrocentrists with their lies try to claim the history of Egypt as theirs but your statement isn't corroborated by the DNA study that I posted post #73 it indicates that the Copts have a different genetic makeup than the rest of the Egyptian population, although from a similar population.
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Old 11-11-2015, 07:19 PM
 
16 posts, read 8,598 times
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Quote:
Copts have a different genetic makeup than the rest of the Egyptian population, although from a similar population.
i read otherwise in other studies
i dont tend to believe Copts are diferent or can be different than other egyptians since Copts arent just some group of people sticking or living witrh each other, Copts in north EGypt doesnt look at all like COpts in south Egypt, and thats natural since a Copt is just an egyptian who didnt convert to Islam, so they remain just like egyptians surrounding them, they arent gonna develop their own dna make up in a mater of 1400 years only
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Old 11-11-2015, 07:36 PM
AFP
 
6,898 posts, read 4,232,517 times
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Originally Posted by WWlll View Post
i read otherwise in other studies
i dont tend to believe Copts are diferent or can be different than other egyptians since Copts arent just some group of people sticking or living witrh each other, Copts in north EGypt doesnt look at all like COpts in south Egypt, and thats natural since a Copt is just an egyptian who didnt convert to Islam, so they remain just like egyptians surrounding them, they arent gonna develop their own dna make up in a mater of 1400 years only
I would like to see the studies you refer to if you don't mind posting them.

Well it is possible that they are different I haven't seen any studies comparing Northern Copts to Southern Copts.
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Old 11-12-2015, 05:26 AM
 
11,383 posts, read 7,781,835 times
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Originally Posted by littlemissrock View Post
Humans are mostly divided by Caucasians, Negroids and Mongoloids. These actually have very little to due with skin tone. Now many parts of Asia have light skin ie Japan, Korea whereas South East Asians Malay, Indonesians have dark skin. Arabs are technically Caucasians.
What are people from India?
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Old 11-12-2015, 07:37 AM
 
931 posts, read 613,607 times
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Originally Posted by so954 View Post
What are people from India?
The situation in India is slightly more complicated, India is incredibly diverse. But by definition most Indians would fall under Caucasians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-A...gration_theory

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gn.../#.VkSmo7_uZR4

Last edited by littlemissrock; 11-12-2015 at 07:52 AM..
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Old 11-12-2015, 07:40 AM
 
323 posts, read 242,684 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
Despite the fact that you canot so much as transcribe my handle correctly, I am going to assume that you are speaking to me. There is no doubt, none what-so-ever, that the amount of Sub Saharan African DNA in Egyptians has increased over the years:


Research on ancient DNA in the Near East
Mateusz Baca
Research on ancient DNA in the Near East | Martyna Molak - Academia.edu
To obtain the frequencies of these mtDNA types, amplification of the HVRI region and three RFLP markers was conducted. The authors succeeded in analysing RFLP markers in 34 samples and HVRI sequences in 18 of the samples. Both populations, ancient and contemporary, fit the north-south clinal distribution of “southern” and “northern” mtDNA types (Graver et al. 2001). However, significant differences were found between these populations. Based on an increased frequency of HpaI 3592 (+) haplotypes in the contemporary Dakhlehian population, the authors suggested that, since Roman times, gene flow from the Sub-Saharan region has affected gene frequencies of individuals from the oasis.

mtDNA analysis in ancient Nubians supports the existence of gene flow between sub-Sahara and North Africa in the Nile valley
C. Fox, 1997
mtDNA analysis in ancient Nubians supports the existence of gene flow between sub-Sahara and North Africa in the Nile Valley. - PubMed - NCBI
The Hpal (np3,592) mitochondrial DNA marker is a selectively neutral mutation that is very common in sub-Saharan Africa and is almost absent in North African and European populations. It has been screened in a Meroitic sample from ancient Nubia through PCR amplification and posterior enzyme digestion, to evaluate the sub-Saharan genetic influences in this population. From 29 individuals analysed, only 15 yield positive amplifications, four of them (26·7%) displaying the sub-Saharan African marker. Hpa I (np3,592) marker is present in the sub-Saharan populations at a frequency of 68·7 on average. Thus, the frequency of genes from this area in the Merotic Nubian population can be estimated at around 39% (with a confidence interval from 22% to 55%). The frequency obtained fits in a south-north decreasing gradient of Hpa I (np3,592) along the African continent. Results suggest that morphological changes observed historically in the Nubian populations are more likely to be due to the existence of south-north gene flow through the Nile Valley than to in-situ evolution

Mitochondrial DNA Research in the Dakhleh Oasis, Egypt
Alison M. Graver
Molecular genetic research is being conducted as part of the Dakhleh Oasis Project (DOP), an international and multi-disciplinary research initiative in the western desert of Egypt. Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is being analyzed from both ancient human skeletal remains associated with the Roman period town of Kellis (100 to 450 AD) and contemporary inhabitants of the Dakhleh Oasis. The primary objectives of this research are to derive paleogenetic information about the inhabitants of ancient Kellis, and to develop a picture of change over time within this desert oasis. Preliminary mtDNA restriction site data and control region sequence variability suggest significant genetic differences exist between the ancient and modern oasis populations

mtDNA Analysis of Nile River Valley Populations: A Genetic Corridor or a Barrier to Migration?
Krings
mtDNA analysis of Nile River Valley populations: A genetic corridor or a barrier to migration? - PubMed - NCBI
To assess the extent to which the Nile River Valley has been a corridor for human migrations between Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa, we analyzed mtDNA variation in 224 individuals from various locations along the river. Sequences of the first hypervariable segment (HV1) of the mtDNA control region and a polymorphic HpaI site at position 3592 allowed us to designate each mtDNA as being of “northern” or “southern” affiliation. Proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the southern Sudan. At slowly evolving sites within HV1, northern-mtDNA diversity was highest in Egypt and lowest in the southern Sudan, and southern-mtDNA diversity was highest in the southern Sudan and lowest in Egypt, indicating that migrations had occurred bidirectionally along the Nile River Valley. Egypt and Nubia have low and similar amounts of divergence for both mtDNA types, which is consistent with historical evidence for long-term interactions between Egypt and Nubia. Spatial autocorrelation analysis demonstrates a smooth gradient of decreasing genetic similarity of mtDNA types as geographic distance between sampling localities increases, strongly suggesting gene flow along the Nile, with no evident barriers. We conclude that these migrations probably occurred within the past few hundred to few thousand years and that the migration from north to south was either earlier or lesser in the extent of gene flow than the migration from south to north.



Because Egypt is a corridor of three continents, migrations have been ocuriing for 50,000 years or more. The Egyptian people are a mixed race, and always have been since Neolithic times:

A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa
Arredi
A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa
"We have typed 275 men from five populations in Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt with a set of 119 binary markers and 15 microsatellites from the Y chromosome, and we have analyzed the results together with published data from Moroccan populations. North African Y-chromosomal diversity is geographically structured and fits the pattern expected under an isolation-by-distance model Autocorrelation analyses reveal an east-west cline of genetic variation that extends into the Middle East and is compatible with a hypothesis of demic expansion. This expansion must have involved relatively small numbers of Y chromosomes to account for the reduction in gene diversity towards the West that accompanied the frequency increase of Y haplogroup E3b2, but gene flow must have been maintained to explain the observed pattern of isolation-by-distance. Since the estimates of the times to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCAs) of the most common haplogroups are quite recent, we suggest that the North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation is largely of Neolithic origin. Thus, we propose that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic–speaking pastoralists from the Middle East."... that most of the rest fell into haplogroup U6 (Salas et al. [/SIZE][SIZE=3]2002[/SIZE][SIZE=3]), which perhaps originated in the Near East and spread into North Africa ~30 thousand years (KY) ago (KYA

Mitochondrial DNA transit between West Asia and North Africa inferred from U6 phylogeographyMaca-Meyer
BMC Genetics | Full text | Mitochondrial DNA transit between West Asia and North Africa inferred from U6 phylogeography
World-wide phylogeographic distribution of human complete mitochondrial DNA sequences suggested a West Asian origin for the autochthonous North African lineage U6. We report here a more detailed analysis of this lineage, unraveling successive expansions that affected not only Africa but neighboring regions such as the Near East, the Iberian Peninsula and the Canary Islands.

The mtDNA legacy of the Levantine early Upper Palaeolithic in Africa
Olivieri A
The mtDNA Legacy of the Levantine Early Upper Palaeolithic in Africa
Sequencing of 81 entire human mitochondrial DNAs (mtDNAs) belonging to haplogroups M1 and U6 reveals that these predominantly North African clades arose in southwestern Asia and moved together to Africa about 40,000 to 45,000 years ago. Their arrival temporally overlaps with the event(s) that led to the peopling of Europe by modern humans and was most likely the result of the same change in climate conditions [/SIZE][SIZE=3]that allowed humans to enter the Levant, opening the way to the colonization of both Europe and North Africa

Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages (RETUNR TO THIS ONE???)
European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages
Fulvio Cruciani et al.
Although human Y chromosomes belonging to haplogroup R1b are quite rare in Africa, being found mainly in Asia and Europe, a group of chromosomes within the paragroup R-P25* are found concentrated in the central-western part of the African continent, where they can be detected at frequencies as high as 95%. Phylogenetic evidence and coalescence time estimates suggest that R-P25* chromosomes (or their phylogenetic ancestor) may have been carried to Africa by an Asia-to-Africa back migration in prehistoric times. Here, we describe six new mutations that define the relationships among the African R-P25* Y chromosomes and between these African chromosomes and earlier reported R-P25 Eurasian sub-lineages. The incorporation of these new mutations into a phylogeny of the R1b haplogroup led to the identification of a new clade (R1b1a or R-V88) encompassing all the African R-P25* and about half of the few European/west Asian R-P25* chromosomes. A worldwide phylogeographic analysis of the R1b haplogroup provided strong support to the Asia-to-Africa back-migration hypothesis. The analysis of the distribution of the R-V88 haplogroup in >1800 males from 69 African populations revealed a striking genetic contiguity between the Chadic-speaking peoples from the central Sahel and several other Afroasiatic-speaking groups from North Africa. The R-V88 coalescence time was estimated at 9200–5600 kya, in the early mid Holocene. We suggest that R-V88 is a paternal genetic record of the proposed mid-Holocene migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers through the Central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin, and geomorphological evidence is consistent with this view.[/SIZE]






Please stop the idiodic insults. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.




The greater change has been more sub-saharan African DNA due to the slave trade, as documented in several posted studies.





KMT refers to the black soil, just as Dshrt refers to the red terrain or desert. They called thier nation "the two lands."




Please. You have never read a single ancient text and hav no idea what you are talking about. I have read Herodotus, Xenophon, Thucidydis, Tactitus, Suetonius, Ceasar, Cicero, Polybius, Livy, Josephus, the Augustin writers,, Arrian, and a host of others. Stop this nonesene.




It is good tha tyou know that he said "melanchroes," because the word refers to swarthy white people. Here is a part of the Odyssey in which Odysseus is described as melenchroes:

With this, Athena touched him [Odysseus] with her golden wand. A well-washed cloak and a tunic she first of all cast about his breast, and she increased his stature and his youthful bloom. Once more he grew dark of color [melanchroięs], and his cheeks filled out, and dark grew the beard about his chin.

Herodotus actually distingushed between Egytpian and Nubian Pharohs- HE SAID THEY WERE DIFFERENT:

After this man the priest enumerate to me from a papyrus the names of other Kings, three hundred and thirty in number; and in all these generations of men eighteen were Ethiopians, one was a woman and the rest were men and of Egyptian race.




Aristotle never actually went to Egypt. Besides, we have discussed the fact that you are reading phny Afrocentric translations.




Count Volney recanted, and besides, was NOT an anthopologist. His oppinion means nothing.





But language is not genetics. As we have demonstrated time and again, the genetics does not support this creation myth.





Even if true all it would prove is that one New Kindom dynasty wsa Beja. Yes, we know that foeign influences came form both directions.





No. They had a vast array of haplotypes as some of the studies posted above attest to.



This is jsu tplain childish. Modern day Europe and America has real, direct links to Greece and Rome. We live in Republics conscioulsy modelled on Rome, and the founding fathers debated a Greek model. Law and Medicine are direct ocntinuations of what wsent on in Greece and Rome, and both fields are permeated with Greek and Roman words. We could go on for days about how you cannot understand the west without understanding Greece and Rome.




Modern day black Africans and African Americans have nothing whatsoever to do with Egypt.



This is all nosnese. The ONLY DNA analysis that has been done on Tut is the Journal of American Medicidne analysis (the DNA TRIBES study uses data from the JAMA).

Albert Zink, who as in charge of the studies, admitted to falsifying the results. He could not repeat them and merely publsihed the one he liked the best.

"Zink has stated that the tests did not get the same results each time they were run and the results reported in the JAMA paper are those the team adjudged "most likely" based on "majority rule" (Curse of the Pharaoh's DNA AWT Conference Review, Marchant; 2011)


http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110427/full/472404a.html


Oh boy, here we go again lol. What about my argument is childish? So, using your argument the presumption would be that everyone in the western hemisphere would be Greek/Roman. The premise of your argument is weak. Europe was not some monolithic cultural/ethnic group until the Romans conquered and assimilated most of the Northern European tribes. What you are referring to is cultural assimilation. Nothing more. When Europeans invaded the America's and conquered the natives and forced conversion to Christianity that didn't make the Natives European. Not sure why this concept is so difficult for you to grasp. The same thing applies to Europe. Those indigenous Northern European tribes had their own language, culture, religious customs that had nothing to do with the foundations of Roman and Greek concepts and philosophy, of which I would argue was plagiarized from the Ancient Egyptians but that's a whole other topic of discussion.

Last edited by jkc2j; 11-12-2015 at 08:31 AM.. Reason: corrections
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Old 11-12-2015, 01:38 PM
 
3,496 posts, read 2,510,345 times
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Originally Posted by jkc2j View Post
Oh boy, here we go again lol. What about my argument is childish? So, using your argument the presumption would be that everyone in the western hemisphere would be Greek/Roman. The premise of your argument is weak. Europe was not some monolithic cultural/ethnic group until the Romans conquered and assimilated most of the Northern European tribes. What you are referring to is cultural assimilation. Nothing more. When Europeans invaded the America's and conquered the natives and forced conversion to Christianity that didn't make the Natives European. Not sure why this concept is so difficult for you to grasp. The same thing applies to Europe. Those indigenous Northern European tribes had their own language, culture, religious customs that had nothing to do with the foundations of Roman and Greek concepts and philosophy, of which I would argue was plagiarized from the Ancient Egyptians but that's a whole other topic of discussion.
It is sad, and almost astonishing, that I can post DNA evidence from the best scientists in the world to have studied the subject, and show you with the very words of the ancients that you have no idea what you are talking about, and instead of conceading the truth, you pick what you consier to be low hanging fruit and continue to argue.

My argument is spot on, but I am not going to continue to prosecute it. The bottom line is that the Egyptians were never a different, blacker people. They are basically the same as they always were, except a bit darker now due the the Arab slave trade. Egypt is a corridor of migration for three continents, and people have been migrating since the paleolithic. So the Egyptians of 5000 years ago were already a heavily mixed race. What is more, Egypt is NOT tropical, so even the native Africans that live there had already evolved to look more like Middle Easterners, since it is on a similar lattidue.

That is the truth, and every scientist to have looked at the situation knows as much.

Actually let's tackle the cultural arguement one last time, for the honest readers following the thread.

Europe has a shared heritage, Africa does not.

Greek and Roman classics were studied and scrutinized when republics were born in France, America, and other places, and constitutional monarchies were borne in Britain and elsewhere. West Africa had no known contact at all with Egypt until the Middle Ages.

Roman law was the law of the land throughout parts of Europe for centuries after the fall of the Roman empire. Egypt did not similarly inform West Africa.

Germans, Gauls, Brits, East Europeans and Spaniards served in the Roman legions building and maintaining an empire. Spain even provided Rome and emperor. No West African carried any kind of torch of civilization in Egypt.

Europeans are highly genetically intertwined, both from ancient times and in America. I am Irish, Italian, Polish, Swedish, German, and English. My Italian, German, English, and possibly Polish ancestors certainly fought both for and against Rome. No decedents of West Africa can claim to have had anything to do with Egypt one way or the other.

The Irish helped to preserve Greco-Roman knowledge during the Middle Ages, and helped to re-distribute it throughout Europe.

Latin is still studied in Europeans and is the base of most Europeans languages. West Africans mostly speak a different language GROUP entirely than ancient Egyptians.

And on and on and on. The bottom line is that Europeans are culturally, linguistically, historically, and legally intertwined, West Africans and Egyptians not so much.

Last edited by cachibatches; 11-12-2015 at 01:56 PM..
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Old 11-12-2015, 03:50 PM
 
16 posts, read 8,598 times
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Quote:
Europe has a shared heritage, Africa does not.

Greek and Roman classics were studied and scrutinized when republics were born in France, America, and other places, and constitutional monarchies were borne in Britain and elsewhere. West Africa had no known contact at all with Egypt until the Middle Ages.

Roman law was the law of the land throughout parts of Europe for centuries after the fall of the Roman empire. Egypt did not similarly inform West Africa.

Germans, Gauls, Brits, East Europeans and Spaniards served in the Roman legions building and maintaining an empire. Spain even provided Rome and emperor. No West African carried any kind of torch of civilization in Egypt.

Europeans are highly genetically intertwined, both from ancient times and in America. I am Irish, Italian, Polish, Swedish, German, and English. My Italian, German, English, and possibly Polish ancestors certainly fought both for and against Rome. No decedents of West Africa can claim to have had anything to do with Egypt one way or the other.

The Irish helped to preserve Greco-Roman knowledge during the Middle Ages, and helped to re-distribute it throughout Europe.

Latin is still studied in Europeans and is the base of most Europeans languages. West Africans mostly speak a different language GROUP entirely than ancient Egyptians.

And on and on and on. The bottom line is that Europeans are culturally, linguistically, historically, and legally intertwined, West Africans and Egyptians not so much
That was very informative man
Thanks for enlightening me that much about Europe and the west in general
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Old 11-12-2015, 03:54 PM
 
323 posts, read 242,684 times
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Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
It is sad, and almost astonishing, that I can post DNA evidence from the best scientists in the world to have studied the subject, and show you with the very words of the ancients that you have no idea what you are talking about, and instead of conceading the truth, you pick what you consier to be low hanging fruit and continue to argue.

My argument is spot on, but I am not going to continue to prosecute it. The bottom line is that the Egyptians were never a different, blacker people. They are basically the same as they always were, except a bit darker now due the the Arab slave trade. Egypt is a corridor of migration for three continents, and people have been migrating since the paleolithic. So the Egyptians of 5000 years ago were already a heavily mixed race. What is more, Egypt is NOT tropical, so even the native Africans that live there had already evolved to look more like Middle Easterners, since it is on a similar lattidue.

That is the truth, and every scientist to have looked at the situation knows as much.

Actually let's tackle the cultural arguement one last time, for the honest readers following the thread.

Europe has a shared heritage, Africa does not.

Greek and Roman classics were studied and scrutinized when republics were born in France, America, and other places, and constitutional monarchies were borne in Britain and elsewhere. West Africa had no known contact at all with Egypt until the Middle Ages.

Roman law was the law of the land throughout parts of Europe for centuries after the fall of the Roman empire. Egypt did not similarly inform West Africa.

Germans, Gauls, Brits, East Europeans and Spaniards served in the Roman legions building and maintaining an empire. Spain even provided Rome and emperor. No West African carried any kind of torch of civilization in Egypt.

Europeans are highly genetically intertwined, both from ancient times and in America. I am Irish, Italian, Polish, Swedish, German, and English. My Italian, German, English, and possibly Polish ancestors certainly fought both for and against Rome. No decedents of West Africa can claim to have had anything to do with Egypt one way or the other.

The Irish helped to preserve Greco-Roman knowledge during the Middle Ages, and helped to re-distribute it throughout Europe.

Latin is still studied in Europeans and is the base of most Europeans languages. West Africans mostly speak a different language GROUP entirely than ancient Egyptians.

And on and on and on. The bottom line is that Europeans are culturally, linguistically, historically, and legally intertwined, West Africans and Egyptians not so much.



So, the fact that a few Gauls and Brits served in the Roman legion some how validates your argument that all of Europe was some unified, cultural/linguistic group? Sorry that argument just doesn't hold up. Ever heard of Septimius Severus? An African born in modern day Libya whom was emperor of Rome from 193 to 211 c. Would that make modern day Libyans Roman? Though most of North Africa was a Roman territory at one time that means modern day North Africa is somehow Roman too according to your logic since they too were conquered and some were soldiers in the Roman legion and one even became emperor. Sorry but your argument fails here. You might want to distort history and paint a pretty picture of a unified culturally homogenous Europe, but to anyone who's studied history knows better. Even the Romans separated themselves from the rest of Europe and showed there was a clear distinction between them and the "barbaric tribes" to the north.

Last edited by jkc2j; 11-12-2015 at 04:05 PM..
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