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Old 04-06-2015, 12:45 AM
 
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Xander,

Am not sure about what points you are trying to make at this point. I've already mentioned that Haile Selassie fled the country for assistance from the League of Nations and I believe this was the right thing for the country. Had he not left the country Ethiopia could have been colonized and or would have possibly shared the same fate as Libya and or Egypt. It is not like he hung out and partied and rebuilt a life in Europe. He was seeking help during the occupation. Not everyone liked Haile Selassie and not all Ethiopians fought for Ethiopia, this is a fact that I too mentioned. But it should be noted that mostly Eritreans and Somalians fought for the Italians not the majority of Ethiopians fought for the Italians as you would like to put it.

You keep mentioning without the British's help Ethiopia would not be free. If Italy didn't use poison to gas the people of Ethiopia, had they had the money to actually colonize, had Italy not declared war on Britain and France, and had they not had the support of the Nazi's the Italians would not have been able to occupy the country for 5 years they would have fought a short term war like the first war. The Italians made it appear that they had a larger presence in Ethiopia than it really had, this is too a fact. They occupied a small section of Ethiopia not all of Ethiopia, this is a fact.

The fact is that there were more Ethiopians fighting for their country and no the people never stopped fighting. If the people just stopped fighting it would make it impossible for Haile Selassie to even return. There were Ethiopian surrenders and there were Italian surrenders this should be oblivious outcomes of war. The British actually put in few of their people to come in and train and fight for Ethiopia but they organized primarily several of the Ethiopian rebels and other Africans from other regions, it should also be noted that African Americans and people from the Caribbean also fought along with the Ethiopians. The Italians fled the country this is another fact. Ethiopia was occupied, just as the Nazi's occupied Europe, just like the Russians did in Afghanistan, and just like the US in Vietnam and now parts of the middle east. But Ethiopia was not colonized but occupied and this is noted in just about everything you have posted.

It would be nice to have actual historical books as reference points and or other reliable historical references.
Italo-Ethiopian War | 1935-1936 | Encyclopedia Britannica

John Welsh of Harvard University has also written about the battle of Adawa and I believe has commented on the 2nd invasion. If I have time and can find some link I will post it. But there are actual books on this subject matter.
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Old 04-06-2015, 03:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayarea-girl View Post
Xander,

Am not sure about what points you are trying to make at this point. I've already mentioned that Haile Selassie fled the country for assistance from the League of Nations and I believe this was the right thing for the country. Had he not left the country Ethiopia could have been colonized and or would have possibly shared the same fate as Libya and or Egypt. It is not like he hung out and partied and rebuilt a life in Europe. He was seeking help during the occupation. Not everyone liked Haile Selassie and not all Ethiopians fought for Ethiopia, this is a fact that I too mentioned. But it should be noted that mostly Eritreans and Somalians fought for the Italians not the majority of Ethiopians fought for the Italians as you would like to put it.
I never said that the majority of Ethiopians fought for Italy, but several tribes who were oppressed and treated like slaves by Amhara did revolt (Oromo, Tigray's tribes, Azebo Gallà, Somalian tribes and Ogaden tribes) and they were few people.
I never accused Haile Selassié of having fled the country, he couldn't have done anything more than he did and if he had stayed, nothing useful would have come out of it.



Quote:
You keep mentioning without the British's help Ethiopia would not be free. If Italy didn't use poison to gas the people of Ethiopia, had they had the money to actually colonize, had Italy not declared war on Britain and France, and had they not had the support of the Nazi's the Italians would not have been able to occupy the country for 5 years they would have fought a short term war like the first war. The Italians made it appear that they had a larger presence in Ethiopia than it really had, this is too a fact. They occupied a small section of Ethiopia not all of Ethiopia, this is a fact.
1) It's a fact that Italians were defeated by British forces not by Ethiopian partisans: at Keren, at Kassala, at Gondar, at Amba-Alagi, etc there were always were British forces and Italians did never surrender to Ethiopian forces.
On the contrary, mostly Italian colonial troops (Askaris) remained loyal to the true end (Libyan, Eritrean,Ethiopian and Somalian soldiers fought with admirable distinction and bravery within the Italian Army).
2) The use of gas wasn't determinant at all in the fighting: the same reports of its use prove that, while it was used, it was never determinant enough to win battles on their own.
Italian soldiers weren't even issued gas masks.
3) Italy did spend a lot in infrastructures and buildings, building much more than whatever had been built previously by other Negus. Then, we can discuss that Italy didn't gain anything from Ethiopia, that's another story.
In fact, Italy did spend in colonies between 17,2 and 19,4% of the Italian annual budget.
4)The fact is this: Ethiopia was annexed and wholly occupied, EVERY single source say this, you can deny this how many times you want, the same sources you cited before mention this. I don't know why you keep on denying such a fact: Ethiopia was defeated, occupied and annexed to Italy, ALL OF ETHIOPIA.
End of the story, there's nothing to debate here.
Quote:
The fact is that there were more Ethiopians fighting for their country and no the people never stopped fighting. If the people just stopped fighting it would make it impossible for Haile Selassie to even return. There were Ethiopian surrenders and there were Italian surrenders this should be oblivious outcomes of war. The British actually put in few of their people to come in and train and fight for Ethiopia but they organized primarily several of the Ethiopian rebels and other Africans from other regions, it should also be noted that African Americans and people from the Caribbean also fought along with the Ethiopians. The Italians fled the country this is another fact. Ethiopia was occupied, just as the Nazi's occupied Europe, just like the Russians did in Afghanistan, and just like the US in Vietnam and now parts of the middle east. But Ethiopia was not colonized but occupied and this is noted in just about everything you have posted.
Sure, there were more than 70,000 Italian colonists and circa 90,000 Italian soldiers in Ethiopia alone, this means roughly 160,000 people ONLY in Ethiopia.
There were other 90,000 people in the rest of East Africa.
I don't think that "occupiers" would build 4,000 km of roads, railways, hospitals, schools, postal offices and so on.
If you know whether Nazi or Soviets built all of that, please make a sign.
Then, if you look at the order of battle of British army for the East Africa Campaign you'll notice that most forces were either British or Indian with a small percentage of King's Africa Rifles, no African-Caribbean and most certainly no African-Americans.
Quote:
It would be nice to have actual historical books as reference points and or other reliable historical references.
Italo-Ethiopian War | 1935-1936 | Encyclopedia Britannica

John Welsh of Harvard University has also written about the battle of Adawa and I believe has commented on the 2nd invasion. If I have time and can find some link I will post it. But there are actual books on this subject matter.
First line of your source (which actually is 15 lines like Wikipedia):
Quote:
"Italo-Ethiopian War, (1935–36), an armed conflict that resulted in Ethiopia’s subjection to Italian rule"
Can't you see that? Nowhere it's said that Ethiopians defeated Italians nor that Ethiopia was only partly occupied, nowhere.
I don't understand why you keep on denying such an obvious fact.

Last edited by xander.XVII; 04-06-2015 at 03:51 AM..
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Old 04-06-2015, 03:43 AM
 
Location: Sweden
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^^^ I think it's a matter of distinguishing the difference between occupation and colonisation. I think that's where all the confusion comes from
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Old 04-06-2015, 12:38 PM
 
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Ethiopians had defeated the fascist army in the Battle of Tembein and this led Italy to revert to chemical warfare. A recent document prepared by Marshall Graziani, acquired by the Library of Congress (Bridget Conley August 29, 2012) read as follows:
"Essential condition for the succeeding of the Operation: (….) the free use of special-liquid bombs and shells in order to inflict maximum losses on the enemy, and above all to effect his complete collapse of morale" Through an extensive use of chemical warfare Italy was able to occupy towns and cities. The Ethiopian resistance continued for five years and it was victorious with the assistance of the allies. Mussoloni himself admitted that he reverted to chemical warfare because the Ethiopians were victorious. Mussolini in his letter on December 28, 1935 to Marshall Badoglio identified the reason for reverting to chemical warfare as follows:
"Given the enemy system of combat, I have authorized ……. the use even on a vast scale of any gas and flamethrowers."

What was the enemy (Ethiopian) system of combat which Mussolini referred above? Leul Ras Kassa the Ethiopian commander in the Northern war front, in his interview with Marcel Griaule, the French anthropologist and writer, explained what Mussolini considered the "enemy system of combat" as follow
"At the battle our soldiers threw away their rifles and unleashed their swords and combated the enemy in hand to hand fight. Eve though most think this type of hand to hand combat as an outdated tactic it has proved effective in modern warfare. Ethiopians succeeded to defeat the Italians in all the battles conducted in the northern war front." (Laketch pp 56/7)

In a situation where the war continued for five years and culminated with Ethiopian victory overcoming a chemical warfare that costed Ethiopia a million lives could not be considered to have been concluded with the Ethiopian retreat to patriotic war controlling almost all rural areas thus frustrating Italian plan to settle its nationals in Ethiopia. - See more at: One Tough Campaign

- See more at: One Tough Campaign
One Tough Campaign
Italy's Invasion of Ethiopia | History Today
http://www.sipri.org/research/disarm.../ethiopiapaper
Italy's Invasion of Ethiopia | History Today

While the mustard gas and other poisons were used by the Italains and it killed several Ethiopians and was difficult for there to be a fair fight. This is a fact, that is why the Italains were sanctioned by many countries including the League of Nations including the USA and the Geneva Convention.

Italians also sought help from the Nazis this is also a fact and is another reason why the British assisted Ethiopia.

Ethiopian rebels with the aid of the British and other African countries kicked the Italians out of Ethiopia. If you google how may troops were in Ethiopia you won't find it, again you actually have to read books. African American and Afro-Carribeans did fight in this war sources are listed below. The US did not want Afro-Americans to fight in the war but they certainly did many went through Spain and other channels but notable fighters were the Mississippi-born Chicagoan John C. Robinson and the West Indies-born Hubert Julian, were both aviators with their own means of getting to Africa that made arrangements far before the call for recruits reached fever pitch or neutrality laws were cited.:

Due read:
Bekerie, Ayele. “African-Americans and the Italo-Ethiopian War.” In Revisioning Italy: National Identity and Global Culture, edited by Beverly Allen and Mary J. Russo. 116-134. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press, 1997.
Bekerie, Ayele. “Ethiopian & African American Relations: The Case of Malaku E. Bayen and John Robinson.” Tadias Magazine, April 18, 2007. Accessed March 13, 2012.
The Case of Melaku E. Bayen & John Robinson at Tadias Magazine
Gramby-Sobukwe, Sharon. “Africa and U.S. Foreign Policy: Contributions of the Diaspora to Democratic African Leadership.” Journal of Black Studies 35, no 6 (2005): 779-801. JSTOR. URL: JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
Harris, Joseph E. African American Reactions to the War in Europe, 1936-1941. Baton Rouge: Louisiana State Press, 1994.
New York Amsterdam News. Available online through Proquest.
Norfolk New Journal and Guide. Available online through Proquest.
Shaftel, David. “The Black Eagle of Harlem: the truth behind the tall tales of Hubert Fauntleroy Julian”. Air and Space. January 2009. Accessed June 2012. History, Travel, Arts, Science, People, Places | Air & Space Magazine
Scott, William R. “Black Nationalism and the Italo-Ethiopian Conflict.” The Journal of Negro History 63, no. 2 (1978): 118-134. JSTOR. URL: JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
Scott, William R. The Sons of Sheba’s Race: African Americans and the Italo-American War 1935-1941. Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1993.

In other points:

Ethiopian rebels retreated to the mountains and kept the fight going for the entire occupation that along, with the fact that Italy had little money to have a colony, and the fact that by Europeans identified Ethiopia as a sovereign independent country in the first Italio and Ethiopian war are reasons why Ethiopia could never be considered colonized by the Italians. Books, and admissions by Mussolini himself say so much.

Am not sure why you keep mentioning 4,000 km of roads built by the Italians for a country that is much bigger than that? Italians had been building in Ethiopia for several years prior, during and after the war. There was a 5 year occupation not colonization. What you and I have both posted basically identifies this contradiction. When you google what you will pull up basically condenses historical facts and perspectives, if you read, or studied in school, and or have family members that fought in such wars you have a better perspective.

Interesting reading on this subject matter:
Lion by the Tail
Haile Selassie's War
Emperor Haile Selassie
Between Bombs and Good Intentions

There are more than one perspective on this subject matter to be debated. Fact remains is that Ethiopia was occupied not colonized. This is a world view at least when you read history books.
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Old 04-06-2015, 03:33 PM
 
1,603 posts, read 1,460,248 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayarea-girl View Post
Ethiopians had defeated the fascist army in the Battle of Tembein and this led Italy to revert to chemical warfare. A recent document prepared by Marshall Graziani, acquired by the Library of Congress (Bridget Conley August 29, 2012) read as follows:
"Essential condition for the succeeding of the Operation: (….) the free use of special-liquid bombs and shells in order to inflict maximum losses on the enemy, and above all to effect his complete collapse of morale" Through an extensive use of chemical warfare Italy was able to occupy towns and cities. The Ethiopian resistance continued for five years and it was victorious with the assistance of the allies. Mussoloni himself admitted that he reverted to chemical warfare because the Ethiopians were victorious. Mussolini in his letter on December 28, 1935 to Marshall Badoglio identified the reason for reverting to chemical warfare as follows:
"Given the enemy system of combat, I have authorized ……. the use even on a vast scale of any gas and flamethrowers."
There's no doubt that gas has been employed and I have never denied it and actually gas was employed before than you mention, not December 28 but December 22 in response to the counter-offensive of Ras Immirù (by the way, I am sorry but I am using Italianised names for Ethiopian leaders and provinces because I don't their correspondent translation in English).


Quote:
What was the enemy (Ethiopian) system of combat which Mussolini referred above? Leul Ras Kassa the Ethiopian commander in the Northern war front, in his interview with Marcel Griaule, the French anthropologist and writer, explained what Mussolini considered the "enemy system of combat" as follow
"At the battle our soldiers threw away their rifles and unleashed their swords and combated the enemy in hand to hand fight. Eve though most think this type of hand to hand combat as an outdated tactic it has proved effective in modern warfare. Ethiopians succeeded to defeat the Italians in all the battles conducted in the northern war front." (Laketch pp 56/7)
Actually, if Ethiopians had reverted to guerilla they might have as well as delayed the conflict as long enough to convince Italy to a peace.
Unfortunately the fedual structure itself of the country, where the different Ras were of dubious loyalty, hampered this project, thus Haile Selassié decided to fight in open battles (Mai Ceu, Lake Ascianghi, Endertà, Scirè,Harar) where the Italian superiority in technology was evident and the courage of Ethiopians wasn't enough (at Mai Ceu Italian Alpini [mountain troops] remained astonished by the bravery of Ethiopians).

Quote:
In a situation where the war continued for five years and culminated with Ethiopian victory overcoming a chemical warfare that costed Ethiopia a million lives could not be considered to have been concluded with the Ethiopian retreat to patriotic war controlling almost all rural areas thus frustrating Italian plan to settle its nationals in Ethiopia. - See more at: One Tough Campaign

- See more at: One Tough Campaign
One Tough Campaign
Italy's Invasion of Ethiopia | History Today
http://www.sipri.org/research/disarm.../ethiopiapaper
Italy's Invasion of Ethiopia | History Today
Actually the official Ethiopian relation assessed losses at 760.000 not certainly a million and it has been severely contested along history.
Rural areas might have been controlled by Ethiopians but there were 70.000 Italian civilians alone in Ethiopia, so evidently somehow they must have stayed.
Quote:
While the mustard gas and other poisons were used by the Italains and it killed several Ethiopians and was difficult for there to be a fair fight. This is a fact, that is why the Italains were sanctioned by many countries including the League of Nations including the USA and the Geneva Convention
.
Actually the US, which weren't in the League of Nations, refused to sanction Italy because the US found hypocritical that two nations who had colonies all over the world (UK and France) could sanction another one about colonialism.
Sanctions were scarcely applied and they didn't result in a halt of Italian operations (it would have sufficient that Britain closed the Suez channel and Italy would lose).
Plus, the annexation was recognised by the League of Nations (except the USSR) on 15 July 1936.
Quote:
Italians also sought help from the Nazis this is also a fact and is another reason why the British assisted Ethiopia.
Actually Nazis helped Ethiopians sending in 1935 10886 Mauser rifles, 10 or 13 pak 35/36 cannons, a thousand of grenades,bullets and other supplies (mainly food and medical supplies).

Quote:
Ethiopian rebels with the aid of the British and other African countries kicked the Italians out of Ethiopia. If you google how may troops were in Ethiopia you won't find it, again you actually have to read books. African American and Afro-Carribeans did fight in this war sources are listed below. The US did not want Afro-Americans to fight in the war but they certainly did many went through Spain and other channels but notable fighters were the Mississippi-born Chicagoan John C. Robinson and the West Indies-born Hubert Julian, were both aviators with their own means of getting to Africa that made arrangements far before the call for recruits reached fever pitch or neutrality laws were cited.:
I didn't know that, thank you.



Quote:
In other points:

Ethiopian rebels retreated to the mountains and kept the fight going for the entire occupation that along, with the fact that Italy had little money to have a colony, and the fact that by Europeans identified Ethiopia as a sovereign independent country in the first Italio and Ethiopian war are reasons why Ethiopia could never be considered colonized by the Italians. Books, and admissions by Mussolini himself say so much.
I repeatedly asked you to explicate what means "colonisation", it's not the point I'm contesting.
You keep on saying that Italy didn't occupy the whole country when in truth Italians did occupy it.
The annexation of Ethiopia, as I said, was recognised by the League of Nations on 15 July 1936, so the world (except the USSR) didn't see Ethiopia as a sovereign independent nation any more.

Quote:
Am not sure why you keep mentioning 4,000 km of roads built by the Italians for a country that is much bigger than that? Italians had been building in Ethiopia for several years prior, during and after the war. There was a 5 year occupation not colonization. What you and I have both posted basically identifies this contradiction. When you google what you will pull up basically condenses historical facts and perspectives, if you read, or studied in school, and or have family members that fought in such wars you have a better perspective.
I mention those works because I find rather difficult to build such an extensive road network and so many other buildings if, like you said, the whole country was controlled by Ethiopian rebels, that's my concern.

Quote:
There are more than one perspective on this subject matter to be debated. Fact remains is that Ethiopia was occupied not colonized. This is a world view at least when you read history books.
Undeniably and all books in the world will say that the whole Ethiopia was occupied, not a tiny fraction as you say.
All books in the world will mention the valour of Arbegnoch but they won't say that they defeated alone Italians nor that they ever controlled the country.
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Old 04-06-2015, 04:36 PM
 
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This site which I copied the text states exactly what I want to convey!Ethiopia…colonized or occupied? | Deep from an Ethiopian - An Ethiopian blog

Ethiopians are proud of the fact that they have never been conquered throughout their history. Africans adopted the Ethiopian tri-colours, green, gold and red, as theirs. It eventually became the colours of pan-Africanism.

Yet as can be found on the internet, there are some who find that fact a bitter pill to swallow. They just can not accept the fact that Ethiopia was never colonized. They always refer to the five years from 1936 to 1941 that the Italians were in Ethiopia and say that Ethiopia was colonized for those five years and not occupied.

So let’s start with the definitions. What is colonization? And what is occupation? The Webster-Merriam dictionary tells us:

Colonization: an act or instance of ‘colonizing.’ Colonizing being the ‘establishment of a colony’; and colony in turn meaning ‘a body of people living in a new territory but retaining ties with the parent state.’ Also a ‘territory inhabited by such a body.’

Occupation: the act or process of ‘taking possession of a place or area: seizure’. Also: ‘the holding and control of an area by foreign military force.’ And ‘the military force occupying a country or the policies carried our by it.’

The obvious differences that can be seen are the fact that

1. In a colonization resistance has been eliminated, the colonized have been subdued and the major activity that is going around is done by the civilians. The country must have surrendered.

2. In occupation there are almost no civilians involved because the occupation is being enforced by the invading army. And the need for this invading army is due to the fact that there is still a resistance going on in one way or the other, which in term implies that the army still doesn’t have a 100% control over the territories.

Now let’s have a look at Ethiopian history, specifically the years 1936 to 1941. The second Ethio-Italian war started a long time before 1935. The first Ethio-Italian war, which ended with Italy’s defeat and humiliation at Adowa in 1896, could be seen as the starting point. Italy wanted revenge and started the second war on October 3rd, 1935. It ended on May 7th, 1936 with the collapse of the Ethiopian Army, which had fought bravely but could not stand up to the poison gas and bombs raining from the Fascists’ airplanes. They marched into Addis Ababa on May 5th, 1936. It must be noted that Ethiopia never surrendered.

The first of the Ethiopian patriots to start the guerilla warfare that would continue till victory day was Lij Hailemaria Mamo of Debre Damo. He attacked a convoy of Italians that were heading to Addis Ababa on May 4th, 1936 thus gaining him the name first of the Ethiopian Patriots or “Arbegna.” After him came resistance in each and every part of Ethiopia. The more the patriots fought the harsher the fascists became, and the harsher they became the more people joined the patriots. By the end of 1936, almost all of Ethiopia was up in rebellion and fighting a guerilla war.

To name a very few of the patriots’ leaders:

• Lij Hailemariam Mamo in and around Debre Damo
• Abebe Aregay in and around Showa
• Dejazmach Menegesha and Belay Zelleke in the the Gojjam are and around the Nile Gorge
• Dejazmach Balcha “Aba Nefso” Safo in the Gurage lands
• Dejazmach Hailu Kebede in the Lasta lands
• There were Eritrean deserters who fought on the Ethiopian side, even when the patriots were losing.


At no given time during those fives years were Italians not fighting for their lives. Apart from the cities where they had their garrisons the land a few kilometers away was controlled by the patriots and the vast countryside remained free.

The Allies had only postponed what was inevitable by letting the fascists get away with murder and pillage hoping that the leniencies of France and Britain would not push Mussolini into the arms of Hitler. They, especially the British finally realized the error of their ways when they found out that should the fascists win they could be a threat to their own territories of Kenya, British Somaliland and Sudan and could completely cut them off from the Suez Canal and the Red Sea if they were to create and empire that stretched form Somaliland to Libya!

The war ended after only three months of fighting between Ethio-British forces and the fascists. Addis Ababa was liberated on May 5th, 1941 exactly five years after it was occupied by the Italians.

So, how was this any different than the ‘occupation’ and not ‘colonization’ of Europe? Almost all of mainland Europe except for Portugal, Spain and Sweden were in one way or another under Germany’s rule; Some for more than five years. Some had even completely surrendered and even collaborated and switched sides over to the Nazis. And yet not one of them is mentioned as being colonized.

Well, it is hoped that this article will show that Ethiopia is a nation that has never been colonized… and never will be!
Other reading sources:
Ekechi, Felix. "The Consolidation of Colonial Rule, 1885–1914." In Colonial Africa, 1885–1939, vol. 3 of Africa, ed. Toyin Falola. Durham: Carolina Academic Press, 2002.
Iweriebor, Ehiedu E. G. "The Psychology of Colonialism." In The End of Colonial Rule: Nationalism and Decolonization, vol. 4 of Africa, ed. Toyin Falola. Durham: Carolina Academic Press, 2002.
Oyebade, Adebayo. "Colonial Political Systems." In Colonial Africa, 1885–1939, vol. 3 of Africa, ed. Toyin Falola. Durham: Carolina Academic Press, 2002.
Stilwell, Sean. "The Imposition of Colonial Rule." In Colonial Africa, 1885–1939, vol. 3 of Africa, ed. Toyin Falola. Durham: Carolina Academic Press, 2002.

Am not sure about some of your rebuttals from my last post. But if Ethiopia was colonized then so was most of Europe by the Nazis and no the Germans are not noted for helping the Ethiopians.
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Old 04-06-2015, 05:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bayarea-girl View Post
Ethiopians are proud of the fact that they have never been conquered throughout their history. Africans adopted the Ethiopian tri-colours, green, gold and red, as theirs. It eventually became the colours of pan-Africanism.
But Ethiopia was conquered in 1936 and annexed.
Conquered doesn't mean "colonised", it means that a foreign army has defeated the local one and assumed control of the country.

Quote:
Yet as can be found on the internet, there are some who find that fact a bitter pill to swallow. They just can not accept the fact that Ethiopia was never colonized. They always refer to the five years from 1936 to 1941 that the Italians were in Ethiopia and say that Ethiopia was colonized for those five years and not occupied.
Then you do admit that Ethiopia was occupied in 1936?
Quote:
So let’s start with the definitions. What is colonization? And what is occupation? The Webster-Merriam dictionary tells us:

Colonization: an act or instance of ‘colonizing.’ Colonizing being the ‘establishment of a colony’; and colony in turn meaning ‘a body of people living in a new territory but retaining ties with the parent state.’ Also a ‘territory inhabited by such a body.’

Occupation: the act or process of ‘taking possession of a place or area: seizure’. Also: ‘the holding and control of an area by foreign military force.’ And ‘the military force occupying a country or the policies carried our by it.’
According to this definition Ethiopia was colonised since there were 70,000 Italian civilians in Ethiopia sent there to colonise the country.

Quote:
The obvious differences that can be seen are the fact that

1. In a colonization resistance has been eliminated, the colonized have been subdued and the major activity that is going around is done by the civilians. The country must have surrendered.

2. In occupation there are almost no civilians involved because the occupation is being enforced by the invading army. And the need for this invading army is due to the fact that there is still a resistance going on in one way or the other, which in term implies that the army still doesn’t have a 100% control over the territories.
The difference, according to your definition, is that a colonisation means to transfer a population into the country while occupation doesn't.
Italians did bring 70,000 civilians (a number which rises up to 190,000 if you consider also Eritrea and Somalia).
Quote:
Now let’s have a look at Ethiopian history, specifically the years 1936 to 1941. The second Ethio-Italian war started a long time before 1935. The first Ethio-Italian war, which ended with Italy’s defeat and humiliation at Adowa in 1896, could be seen as the starting point. Italy wanted revenge and started the second war on October 3rd, 1935. It ended on May 7th, 1936 with the collapse of the Ethiopian Army, which had fought bravely but could not stand up to the poison gas and bombs raining from the Fascists’ airplanes. They marched into Addis Ababa on May 5th, 1936. It must be noted that Ethiopia never surrendered.
Actually the Ethiopian Army collapsed against a much better equipped and led Italian Army: the gas had a marginal role in the pure military victory, it was mostly used against columns in retreat (at Endertà, at Uarieu Pass, at Mai Ceu or in Ogaden) and to terrorise the population.


Quote:
The first of the Ethiopian patriots to start the guerilla warfare that would continue till victory day was Lij Hailemaria Mamo of Debre Damo. He attacked a convoy of Italians that were heading to Addis Ababa on May 4th, 1936 thus gaining him the name first of the Ethiopian Patriots or “Arbegna.” After him came resistance in each and every part of Ethiopia. The more the patriots fought the harsher the fascists became, and the harsher they became the more people joined the patriots. By the end of 1936, almost all of Ethiopia was up in rebellion and fighting a guerilla war.

To name a very few of the patriots’ leaders:

• Lij Hailemariam Mamo in and around Debre Damo
• Abebe Aregay in and around Showa
• Dejazmach Menegesha and Belay Zelleke in the the Gojjam are and around the Nile Gorge
• Dejazmach Balcha “Aba Nefso” Safo in the Gurage lands
• Dejazmach Hailu Kebede in the Lasta lands
• There were Eritrean deserters who fought on the Ethiopian side, even when the patriots were losing.
Sure, there were also Ethiopian tribes who fought with Italians till the very end.
When Italian forces surrendered at Amba Alagi in 1941, Eritrean Askaris refused to leave before and walked to prison with their Italian comrades.
The fact itself that Tigray massively supported Italians can be seen when, after the battle of Endertà, Ethiopian forces were heavily harassed by Ethiopians loyal to Italy.
Plus, Eritrea rebelled and after a long war obtained its independence, so I doubt that Eritreans were pro-Ethiopia.

Quote:
At no given time during those fives years were Italians not fighting for their lives. Apart from the cities where they had their garrisons the land a few kilometers away was controlled by the patriots and the vast countryside remained free.
They fought for their lives for sure since Ethiopian didn't take prisoners.

Quote:
The Allies had only postponed what was inevitable by letting the fascists get away with murder and pillage hoping that the leniencies of France and Britain would not push Mussolini into the arms of Hitler. They, especially the British finally realized the error of their ways when they found out that should the fascists win they could be a threat to their own territories of Kenya, British Somaliland and Sudan and could completely cut them off from the Suez Canal and the Red Sea if they were to create and empire that stretched form Somaliland to Libya!
Nothing to say, all true.
Quote:
The war ended after only three months of fighting between Ethio-British forces and the fascists. Addis Ababa was liberated on May 5th, 1941 exactly five years after it was occupied by the Italians.
The war began on 10 June 1940 and the last Italian forces surrendered at Gondar (again widely supported by the population) on 28 November 1941, thus the war lasted 17 months, not three.
[quote]So, how was this any different than the ‘occupation’ and not ‘colonization’ of Europe? Almost all of mainland Europe except for Portugal, Spain and Sweden were in one way or another under Germany’s rule; Some for more than five years. Some had even completely surrendered and even collaborated and switched sides over to the Nazis. And yet not one of them is mentioned as being colonized.

Well, it is hoped that this article will show that Ethiopia is a nation that has never been colonized… and never will be![/QUOTE
Actually Nazi Germany tried to implement a colonisation plan in Eastern Europe: exterminating all previous inhabitants and supplant them with German colonists.
Beside that, Nazi neither built many infrastructures and buildings in their occupied territories nor they transferred massive numbers of their civilians to occupied territories (though that was in their plans).

Quote:
Am not sure about some of your rebuttals from my last post. But if Ethiopia was colonized then so was most of Europe by the Nazis and no the Germans are not noted for helping the Ethiopians.
Nazi Germany sent weapons and supplies to Ethiopia to punish Italy of its opposition to the German plans of annexation of Austria (Stresa Front).
Plus, most Ethiopian artillery came from either Belgium (Oerlikon) or Germany (Krupp).
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Old 04-06-2015, 07:51 PM
 
3,117 posts, read 6,836,008 times
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Your position is just confusing. My position has always been and will always be that Ethiopia was occupied by the Italians, not all of Ethiopia was occupied either it just wasn't nor was the counrty Colonized NEVER! This is where we began our argument of the difference between colonization and occupation which I appreciate have been very civil arguments, which often times when discussing subject matters of this nature debates can just be heated.

No Eritrean and Somalian pre and or post war do not count as Italian settlers. Many of those people have done business and have lived in Ethiopia for many years. Italians have migrated during WW2 to just about every country for various reasons. During the Italian occupation about 38,000 Italians lived in Ethiopia (most of these people were there prior to the war it should be noted and many of these people also fought for Ethiopia) and 49,000 lived in Asmara, Eritrea (think some sources at least on the internet merged the 2 countries numbers together).

Most of the relative success achieved by the Ethiopians was attributed by the Italians to foreigners or "ferenghi".[78] Many of these elusive individuals were military advisers, pilots, doctors, or just well wishers of Haile Selassie's "cause". While never numbering more than a hundred, the Italian propaganda machine magnified the number to thousands so that Rome could account for the virtual standstill of the Italian Royal Army after De Bono's first rapid advances. According to Ethiopian historians, something had to explain the Ethiopians' ability to launch the "Christmas Offensive" of late 1935.[79]

The following are a few of the foreigners who came to Ethiopia or who supported the Ethiopian people:

Bill Deedes – Journalist and possibly the inspiration for William Boot in Waugh's Scoop
Andrew Fountaine – Ambulance driver
Hubert Julian – Pilot
Marcel Junod – Red Cross doctor
Webb Miller – Journalist
Wehib Pasha – Military advisor
Count Carl Gustaf von Rosen – Swedish Red Cross pilot – Red Cross facilities were bombed regularly by the Italians.[80]
John H. Spencer – Advisor
Linton Wells and Fay Gillis Wells – Journalists
Karl von Wiegand – Journalist
Adolf Parlesák – Military advisor
John Robinson - Aviator
While the majority of non-Italian foreigners in Ethiopia were with the Ethiopians, there were others who saw the war from the Italian lines. An example:

Matthews, Herbert Lionel – A reporter and historian who wrote Eyewitness in Abyssinia: With Marshal Bodoglio's forces to Addis Ababa (1937)
Pedro del Valle – Observer (USMC)
Evelyn Waugh – Sent by Daily Mail as a reporter; later wrote the novel Scoop based on experiences
The United States is in the Middle East right now and has people from the states that have migrated there. There are many people involved in construction but I would hardly say that deems their settlement as colonization. This too is an occupation.

Mussolini turned to Hitler

Hitler and Mussolini
EthiopiaSpeech


Here are some interesting videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYdZiVlDqbs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtxL3idYS6k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfJYh3Y45Uk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3HYOOjIj88

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akChOvfHADs

Last edited by bayarea-girl; 04-06-2015 at 08:02 PM..
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Old 05-20-2015, 08:24 AM
 
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To me success or failure are direct results of thinking and practices. If you look at most Ethiopians or Somalians for that matter you can clearly see that they are very stubborn and have hard time accepting new ideas or disagree in a civil manner. Almost any differences of ideas bring fights at a personal level and war at group level due to lack of self confidence and poor or no education / experience. Most live based on yesterday and wishful thinking e.g. "We are the best looking people on earth, we were not colonized, etc).
I was born and lived there so I am speaking from experience.
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Old 05-20-2015, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Sweden
1,446 posts, read 1,501,368 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scientifcmind1 View Post
To me success or failure are direct results of thinking and practices. If you look at most Ethiopians or Somalians for that matter you can clearly see that they are very stubborn and have hard time accepting new ideas or disagree in a civil manner. Almost any differences of ideas bring fights at a personal level and war at group level due to lack of self confidence and poor or no education / experience. Most live based on yesterday and wishful thinking e.g. "We are the best looking people on earth, we were not colonized, etc).
I was born and lived there so I am speaking from experience.
These are not the only 2 countries that cannot accept new ideas, there are at least a 100 more.
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