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Old 05-05-2015, 10:38 PM
 
Location: Kirkland, WA (Metro Seattle)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
You do realize that more powerful African tribes often conquered/ruled over less powerful tribes, sometimes enslaving the population of the losing side? African tribes weren't immune to this kind of conquest and creation of "artificial" borders themselves. Its human nature, not just a "European thing."
Of course they did. "They" are humanity, that is (all of our) nature: Conquest. Borders are very temporary. Ask any Polish, Irish, or Sicilian national: three of the most invaded and conquered lands, past thousand years in-particular but certainly before that, too (can we say, "Roman Empire?")

I laugh at the whiny little schoolgirls in the United States (my home) complaining about the peace-loving Native Americans. They conveniently ignore the half of it. Yes, it was a shame they were mostly wiped out by disease from other conquerors (Europeans, my direct ancestors). Yes, they were mistreated by a militarily superior foe across an arc of two hundred years or more. All that just slowed them down from getting on with the earlier business of conquering and wiping out each other, all across North America, for God knows how many centuries.

Cities, city-states, and agricultural empires spanning large swathes around our greatest N-S river, the Mississippi, rose and fell across centuries. They're pretty sure Anasazis (aka Puebloans) rose and fell in multiple civilizational waves across an arc of nine THOUSAND years in the American southwest, same theory. They ebbed and flowed across waves of war, famine, drought, and more-pacific periods that could also last centuries as part of the real (natural) "climate change" that has been occurring on the Earth since...forever.

That's just how we are. All of us.
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Old 08-29-2017, 02:12 PM
 
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Very interesting thread.
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Old 09-01-2017, 01:44 AM
 
Location: Katy,Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
You do realize that more powerful African tribes often conquered/ruled over less powerful tribes, sometimes enslaving the population of the losing side? African tribes weren't immune to this kind of conquest and creation of "artificial" borders themselves. Its human nature, not just a "European thing." At present, however, I can't think of too many African tribes that are dying to be completely independent sovereign nations.
Some Igbos are doing it in Biafra, and a few others but only revert back to tribal boundaries not ways of governance.
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Old 09-01-2017, 02:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gumisgood View Post
The nature of Africans enslaving Africans was different from Europeans enslaving Africans. .


Time we stop this nonsense.


1. There were many types of slavery in Africa. And many types of slaves.


In fact we can see from the chattel slavery that exists TODAY in places like Mali and Niger that it could be every bit as damaging as that practiced by those in the Americas. there are "tribes" which are known to be slaves, and are so brain washed by this that some refuse to seize "freedom" even when offered to them.


2. The African kingdoms which evolved as slave economies weren't filled with stupid people. they knew full well what Transatlantic slavery was as they observed it for themselves once the slaves were sold. In addition people who were captured and who returned to Africa warned them of what happens and so these people cannot plead that they didn't know.


3. When Sierra Leone and Liberia were set up by emancipated and free blacks some of the surrounding kingdoms were hostile to their presence as they saw it as interfering with their right to trade slaves. In some instances they even attacked these colonies hoping that they would fail.


So we need to stop excusing Africans from the role that they played in establishing the slave trade. One can see similar behavior in today's Africa where we see rampant corruption and brutality in today's diamond trade.
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Old 09-01-2017, 03:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Multi-tribalism is not a relevant factor in the failure of any African country to develop economically, so changing borders would not mitigate poverty.


It is in fact a factor in that many of the conflicts are in fact disguised inter "tribal" wars. It is no coincidence that the combatants are often fellow ethnics.


Now reverting to original borders is impractical as those borders were constantly shifting in pre colonial times. In addition many ethnic identities have been altered.
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Old 09-05-2017, 08:16 AM
 
Location: Macao
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The nation-state system is here to stay...any place without one, just won't have any security.

The real question is should they be redrawn, to reflect groups of people more accurately.

For people unfamiliar with how Africa was carved. It's kind of like if someone were to draw countries in Europe that are 1/3 french, 1/3 german, and 1/3 spanish, which worked great when you have a foreign overlord. But when they go to nation-states, they are in perpetual conflict as to who should run the state.

My argument is to just redraw the nation-states, so they more adequately group the correct people together.
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Old 09-11-2017, 10:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gumisgood View Post
Well, in colonial times, a certain tribe was usually propped up to rule over the rest. This bred inequality amongst the tribes, those that were in the colonizer's pockets gaining large amounts of power, land, money etc. ..
I suspect that the powerful rulers of the Dahomey empire as well as those of the Asante and the Yoruba would be shocked to find out that they were in some one's pockets.

Just as Saudi Arabia sees oil as a good way to make money so too did some of the larger and more powerful empires see slavery as a good route to wealth.

Contrary to your thinking they didn't see a world of blacks and whites. They saw a world of people who were of their empires and those who weren't. Some of these foreigners were blacks, and others were "weird devilish looking with extremely hideous appearance" because of their white skin, pale eyes and hair which Africans saw as being unnatural. Seeing these whites dying off because of the tropical heat and diseases and noting their habit of extreme slovenly and drunken behavior I can imagine that those African rulers also saw them as being very weak.

Clearly the Asante weren't in the pockets of the British, even as they sold them tens of thousands of slaves, because they fought a fierce war against them in the late 19th century and were never completely conquered.

Do you know that before the Asante began to sell slaves they BOUGHT them from the Portuguese, who sold them enslaved peoples from the Congo/Angola regions.
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Old 11-15-2017, 06:10 PM
 
4,434 posts, read 4,417,168 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Time we stop this nonsense.


1. There were many types of slavery in Africa. And many types of slaves.


In fact we can see from the chattel slavery that exists TODAY in places like Mali and Niger that it could be every bit as damaging as that practiced by those in the Americas. there are "tribes" which are known to be slaves, and are so brain washed by this that some refuse to seize "freedom" even when offered to them.


2. The African kingdoms which evolved as slave economies weren't filled with stupid people. they knew full well what Transatlantic slavery was as they observed it for themselves once the slaves were sold. In addition people who were captured and who returned to Africa warned them of what happens and so these people cannot plead that they didn't know.


3. When Sierra Leone and Liberia were set up by emancipated and free blacks some of the surrounding kingdoms were hostile to their presence as they saw it as interfering with their right to trade slaves. In some instances they even attacked these colonies hoping that they would fail.


So we need to stop excusing Africans from the role that they played in establishing the slave trade. One can see similar behavior in today's Africa where we see rampant corruption and brutality in today's diamond trade.
Im going to respond to this later because there a lot of false hoods and oversimplification in this post
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Old 11-15-2017, 08:30 PM
 
691 posts, read 918,997 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
I suspect that the powerful rulers of the Dahomey empire as well as those of the Asante and the Yoruba would be shocked to find out that they were in some one's pockets.

Just as Saudi Arabia sees oil as a good way to make money so too did some of the larger and more powerful empires see slavery as a good route to wealth.

Contrary to your thinking they didn't see a world of blacks and whites. They saw a world of people who were of their empires and those who weren't. Some of these foreigners were blacks, and others were "weird devilish looking with extremely hideous appearance" because of their white skin, pale eyes and hair which Africans saw as being unnatural. Seeing these whites dying off because of the tropical heat and diseases and noting their habit of extreme slovenly and drunken behavior I can imagine that those African rulers also saw them as being very weak.

Clearly the Asante weren't in the pockets of the British, even as they sold them tens of thousands of slaves, because they fought a fierce war against them in the late 19th century and were never completely conquered.

Do you know that before the Asante began to sell slaves they BOUGHT them from the Portuguese, who sold them enslaved peoples from the Congo/Angola regions.
Interesting, because a friend from Sierra Leone stated when his tribe first saw the European's white skin
they thought of the white part of a peeled potato that was rotting from being in the sun too long.
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Old 11-15-2017, 11:57 PM
 
4,434 posts, read 4,417,168 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Time we stop this nonsense.


1. There were many types of slavery in Africa. And many types of slaves.


In fact we can see from the chattel slavery that exists TODAY in places like Mali and Niger that it could be every bit as damaging as that practiced by those in the Americas. there are "tribes" which are known to be slaves, and are so brain washed by this that some refuse to seize "freedom" even when offered to them.
Ok let start here

False, not that there isn't chattel slavery in Africa or even today, hell there slaves in the US Human trafficking etc.

Non of this has much to do with the vast numbers of the transatlantic slave trade, The majority came by war captivity. Rival kingdoms fought each other and raid villages and etc.

Also just because there might have some instance chattel slavery does not change the fact of the commonly indentured servitude.


indentured servitude is when you working for someone pay off a debt or loan,


You really should read this stuff
Indentured Servants In The U.S. | History Detectives | PBS


Quote:
2. The African kingdoms which evolved as slave economies weren't filled with stupid people. they knew full well what Transatlantic slavery was as they observed it for themselves once the slaves were sold. In addition people who were captured and who returned to Africa warned them of what happens and so these people cannot plead that they didn't know.
False 2#

1. Slavery in Americas center around racism, in Africa it wasn't. Slavery wasn't a new concept to European, there was white on white slavery with in the Roman empire, The viking and Nordic countries, Germanic tribes and etc.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozAPmRun8GU


By the late middle Churches supposedly ban slavery, they didn't really ban slavery they ban slavery to Christians, Who were over whelming were white. This slowly change to European exploiting slave markets with people of color.

European went to Africa because of color, African where not selling slaves of their color. Africans did not know they was being target because of these color.

African rulers and etc did not go to the Americas. They had no idea of the condition in the Americas. or again people where being target because of their color.

Also The Slaves that returning came near or was after the British empire outlaw slavery. the damage was already done Even America outlaw the importing of slaves in 1807. For instance ex slaves didn't start going to Sierra Leone until 1787 Liberia until the 1822. When the Portuguese started the trade back in 1502, With British and etc later.


Quote:
3. When Sierra Leone and Liberia were set up by emancipated and free blacks some of the surrounding kingdoms were hostile to their presence as they saw it as interfering with their right to trade slaves. In some instances they even attacked these colonies hoping that they would fail.
Think deeply about it


imagine...... if white Americans went to Germany and Ireland, took their land and form colonies..... Do think you German the Irish would think kindly of this?.....


Quote:
So we need to stop excusing Africans from the role that they played in establishing the slave trade. One can see similar behavior in today's Africa where we see rampant corruption and brutality in today's diamond trade.
Not excusing

I'm using logic, Of course I have critizism towards The slave trading kingdoms those Kings failed to see the larger picture, That was puppets

It's bizarre Rival kingdoms would have the same Europeans sponsor to fight each other.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...hedebateonslav

The National Archives | Exhibitions & Learning online | Black presence | Africa and the Caribbean
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