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Old 05-04-2015, 09:00 PM
 
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Europeans come and divide the land into countries that disregard tribal considerations, and Africans go along with it. Yet, some of these tribes are ancient...from the 11th centuary. Europeans disrupt the process for 100 years and all of a sudden we are supposed to forget our tribes? Our ancestors would be ashamed. They died and killed for us to even be here, it's disrespectful to your ancestors to forsake them.

Instead of doing away with the nation states, we should incorporate them into our system of governance. How that would work exactly, I am not sure. You tell me. But, leave the Europeans to rule themselves how they wish, we have to do what works for us. We have our system, why are we abondoning it?

So, when do we go back to our natural tribal system?
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Old 05-04-2015, 09:23 PM
 
Location: Middle of the Pacific Ocean
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Originally Posted by gumisgood View Post
Europeans come and divide the land into countries that disregard tribal considerations, and Africans go along with it. Yet, some of these tribes are ancient...from the 11th centuary. Europeans disrupt the process for 100 years and all of a sudden we are supposed to forget our tribes? Our ancestors would be ashamed. They died and killed for us to even be here, it's disrespectful to your ancestors to forsake them.

Instead of doing away with the nation states, we should incorporate them into our system of governance. How that would work exactly, I am not sure. You tell me. But, leave the Europeans to rule themselves how they wish, we have to do what works for us. We have our system, why are we abondoning it?

So, when do we go back to our natural tribal system?
You do realize that more powerful African tribes often conquered/ruled over less powerful tribes, sometimes enslaving the population of the losing side? African tribes weren't immune to this kind of conquest and creation of "artificial" borders themselves. Its human nature, not just a "European thing." At present, however, I can't think of too many African tribes that are dying to be completely independent sovereign nations.
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Old 05-04-2015, 10:16 PM
 
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The nature of Africans enslaving Africans was different from Europeans enslaving Africans. An African slave in Africa was a consequence of war..and he could work to become a prominent member of the community that was enslaving him. His kids were usually not born into slavery, instead they were absorbed by the tribe. They could marry, eventually, into the tribe...get land and money. Slavery wasnt a birthright by virtue of your skin color or history. It was more a function of war.

But youre right...most African tribes arent looking to become sovereign. I wonder why though.
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Old 05-04-2015, 10:32 PM
 
Location: Middle of the Pacific Ocean
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Originally Posted by gumisgood View Post
The nature of Africans enslaving Africans was different from Europeans enslaving Africans. An African slave in Africa was a consequence of war..and he could work to become a prominent member of the community that was enslaving him. His kids were usually not born into slavery, instead they were absorbed by the tribe. They could marry, eventually, into the tribe...get land and money. Slavery wasnt a birthright by virtue of your skin color or history. It was more a function of war.

But youre right...most African tribes arent looking to become sovereign. I wonder why though.
Even to the extent that your point has some truth to it (and it does), let's take care not to romanticize Africans enslaving Africans; slavery, even as practiced within and between various African tribes certainly wasn't pleasant and was degrading/inhumane. Yes, there were differences between European slavery and African slavery, but I always ask why this point is brought up as both were still terrible. Also, I won't speak of African slavery as practiced by some African tribes like it was the same for all tribes; indeed, I'm sure there were variations among tribes, with some tribes practicing more brutal/less forgiving forms of slavery than others. Heck, within Africa, there was chattel slavery, debt slavery, war slavery, human sacrifice slavery, etc. There was no one form of slavery within Africa.

As to the other point: I ask what do most African tribes have to gain by becoming independent? Its sometimes much better to pool resources than for many hundreds of ethnic groups/tribes to try to go it alone. And, as I mentioned before, the concept of "artificial boundaries" is not new to European colonization of Africa, as various African tribes conquered/ruled over other tribes.
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Old 05-04-2015, 11:15 PM
 
Location: Allendale MI
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Originally Posted by gumisgood View Post
The nature of Africans enslaving Africans was different from Europeans enslaving Africans. An African slave in Africa was a consequence of war..and he could work to become a prominent member of the community that was enslaving him. His kids were usually not born into slavery, instead they were absorbed by the tribe. They could marry, eventually, into the tribe...get land and money. Slavery wasnt a birthright by virtue of your skin color or history. It was more a function of war.

But youre right...most African tribes arent looking to become sovereign. I wonder why though.
It's 2015
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Old 05-04-2015, 11:39 PM
 
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Well, in colonial times, a certain tribe was usually propped up to rule over the rest. This bred inequality amongst the tribes, those that were in the colonizer's pockets gaining large amounts of power, land, money etc. And it bred and continues to breed resentment. Until today, certain tribes...actually, just certain families..own most of the land.

It is frequently the case that an overall minority controls the resources of the country. And people grow weary, and it leads to insecurity and violence.

An extreme example is Rwanda. Though the Hutus are 80% of the country, Tutsis run the government. They always have, as they were the ones deemed worthy of power. So, the Hutus...essentially living under a system of opression..react horribly to their state killing so many Tutsi men that the country was literally 70/30 female...and eventually it is brought to a stop only for the Tutsi to be propped back up into power? What changed? Why wont exactly what happened in the 90s happen again? If not there, then elsewhere?

Instead, why not have each tribe rule over its people? Or at least have power more balanced? It's time for those put in power to relinquish their power and have it more evenly distributed amongst all sorts of people. And not just the power, the land especially. There's probably a list of 100 families that control most of the land in sub-saharan Africa. Land they pocketed when the Europeans were chased out. And you wonder why people are angry?

Its time to rebalance the powers, I think.
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Old 05-04-2015, 11:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Michigantown View Post
It's 2015
What is inherently progressive about nation states and inherently backwards about tribal states?
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Old 05-04-2015, 11:48 PM
 
Location: Allendale MI
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Originally Posted by gumisgood View Post
What is inherently progressive about nation states and inherently backwards about tribal states?
Should France , Spain and Germany split up too. Most Africans are happy with there borders by now. Tribes stunt growth.
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Old 05-05-2015, 12:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Michigantown View Post
Tribes stunt growth.
Hmmm...maybe. I'm just throwing it out there. At the end of the day its whats good for the people.
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Old 05-05-2015, 12:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by gumisgood View Post
The nature of Africans enslaving Africans was different from Europeans enslaving Africans. An African slave in Africa was a consequence of war..and he could work to become a prominent member of the community that was enslaving him. His kids were usually not born into slavery, instead they were absorbed by the tribe. They could marry, eventually, into the tribe...get land and money. Slavery wasnt a birthright by virtue of your skin color or history. It was more a function of war.
Was this written in books from the African tribes? How do you know this?
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