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Old 03-08-2016, 04:45 AM
 
4,434 posts, read 4,422,235 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
I am not from the far right or racist at all, to the contrary I am progressive and liberal, but not blind. I just don't see any pan-African whatever in Africa. People are egoistic everywhere, and each ethnic group cares about itself. People in Uganda don't give a crap about people in Nigeria or Somalia. They are not in any way united just because they happen to have black skin.

Pan-Africa is a naive idea, probably originating with people from outside Africa looking at that abused continent.
But there is no Pan-Africa, just like there is no Pan-Asia or Pan-America.

I don't like the word diaspora and what it stands for. African-Americans have no right to go back to Africa, it is not their continent, their future is in America where they belong. Just like white Americans have no right to go back to Europe. They simply are not from there. There is no point in trying to turn back time, it's impossible.

When I look at Liberia, that idea is doomed to failure, anyway.
You didn't answer anything I said and still constricting yourself making my point.

1. "pan-Africa" is not a sole idea, it's abstract people have different definitions to what it is. And the term could be use to apply to different contexts and situation. Therefore it can never be wrong or right. Pan African could anything from civil rights, entertainment, learning African and African diaspora history. Political and etc. It's dozens of different topics to different people with different interests.

2. People in the South Pacific have dark skin it's not about skin color. It's related to African heritage.

3. "probably originating with people from outside Africa looking at that abused continent." this let me know you clearly don't know what talking about. Again it's abstract there is no origin, it depends of the subject you speaking of. Also " people from outside Africa looking at that abused continent" what?

4. "African-Americans have no right to go back to Africa," African-Americans have the right to go to Africa, Europe, South America, Asia, dang it Antarctica. African Americans are Human being and have right to immigrate where ever if they chose to, it's not your call.

5, And your last post you said Africa is a mess and the people are very divide that actually the making case why should be pan African. This is why I said you have no center,

6. "I am progressive and liberal, but not blind." your blind to your criticism that doesn't make sense. And generalization your own notion to what it is. And you don't seem progressive or liberial generalizing like that and being that close minded. I also never said you was racist, I said that anyone who straw man a complex argument to something as simplistic as saying " victim mindset" and than attach the term racism out of context is probably racist themselves.
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Old 03-08-2016, 08:39 AM
 
7,328 posts, read 4,018,637 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
I am not from the far right or racist at all, to the contrary I am progressive and liberal, but not blind.
Claims of being a "progressive and liberal" does not offer immunity from racist tendencies and ideas.

As one who claims to believe is progressivism and liberalism do you consider unionism as class warfare, feminism as sexist, or progressivism and liberalism as anti-democratic or anti-individualism? If so, then I suggest you rethink your self-description.

Pan-Africanism is a socio-political philosophy created to unite an historically oppressed and exploited people who have been subject to the deprecation of their history, and culture. People who in their struggles for independence and self-determination were mentally and spiritual disunited in their common struggle against racism and imperialism and neocolonialism. Yet as a "progressive and a liberal" you deride this philosophy as racist when its sole objective is to combat the very racism that has been imposed upon Africans and those of the African Diaspora.

Amazing.

Quote:
I just don't see any pan-African whatever in Africa. People are egoistic everywhere, and each ethnic group cares about itself. People in Uganda don't give a crap about people in Nigeria or Somalia. They are not in any way united just because they happen to have black skin.
Funny, I don't "see" progressivism and liberalism in much of the world does that mean that attempts to achieve progressivism and liberalism is a fools errand? That doesn't seem very progressive or liberal to me.
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Old 03-08-2016, 01:42 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,463 posts, read 19,332,544 times
Reputation: 8521
Sorry, I have a lot of work these days, so no time for orderly quoting etc. I just read through your replies and write my comments on them here:

Why am I racist just because I don't buy into that pan-African myth?! Since I am in a mixed-race relationship myself, I am certainly not racist, else my gf would long have dumped me.

Big mistake there in one of your replies, Africans are not AN oppressed and exploited people. They are hundreds or even thousands of very different peoples, as different from each other as the Irish and the Chinese. That is why there is no pan-Africa. Many of those peoples can't stand each other. Any two European peoples are closer to each other than people in southern and northern Nigeria are to each other. Even more so as you cross the borders.

And no, there is no pan-America, either. The US is just one American country of many, and there is nothing that unites, say, US-Americans with Brazilians just because they happen to live on the same continent. The only pan-American thing there is is a highway.
Even the EU is not pan-Europe. It started as a mere trade union, but most Europeans do not support all those additional pseudo-unions that have been forced upon them by the elite by now. Why? Because Spaniards or Italians don't give a crap about Germans or Danes, and vice versa. And that's OK. There is no need for any pan-whatever.

I am not telling African-Americans anything. But it is my opinion that they indeed belong on the American continent and nowhere else. They are not Africans, they and their ancestors have not been to Africa in many generations. Many of them are mixed-race, anyway, so one might as well say they are Europeans in diaspora. Which of course makes just as little sense. AA's are Americans and nothing else. AA's don't speak African languages, they don't dress in African clothes, they don't eat African foods, there is nothing African about AA's except for mere genes, partially that is. My impression is that some AA's have that naive idea of some African homeland in mind, a place where they are welcome and at home. In my view that is utter nonsense. Africans don't need AA's for anything. They have more than enough mouths to feed already. No place for dreamers who don't get their own act together at home...
And yes, except for skin color AA's are much more European than African. They are not more welcome in Africa than they are in Europe.

There are also lots of white people living permanently in Africa. African countries let in people that contribute, no matter what color they are or where they are from. There is no preference for AA's just because they happen to be of a similar color. The only foreigners that really help some Africans are the Chinese, who are mostly racists, but at least they do bring about change and invest and build a lot.
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Old 03-08-2016, 06:30 PM
 
4,434 posts, read 4,422,235 times
Reputation: 3500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Sorry, I have a lot of work these days, so no time for orderly quoting etc. I just read through your replies and write my comments on them here:

Why am I racist just because I don't buy into that pan-African myth?! Since I am in a mixed-race relationship myself, I am certainly not racist, else my gf would long have dumped me.

Big mistake there in one of your replies, Africans are not AN oppressed and exploited people. They are hundreds or even thousands of very different peoples, as different from each other as the Irish and the Chinese. That is why there is no pan-Africa. Many of those peoples can't stand each other. Any two European peoples are closer to each other than people in southern and northern Nigeria are to each other. Even more so as you cross the borders.

And no, there is no pan-America, either. The US is just one American country of many, and there is nothing that unites, say, US-Americans with Brazilians just because they happen to live on the same continent. The only pan-American thing there is is a highway.
Even the EU is not pan-Europe. It started as a mere trade union, but most Europeans do not support all those additional pseudo-unions that have been forced upon them by the elite by now. Why? Because Spaniards or Italians don't give a crap about Germans or Danes, and vice versa. And that's OK. There is no need for any pan-whatever.

I am not telling African-Americans anything. But it is my opinion that they indeed belong on the American continent and nowhere else. They are not Africans, they and their ancestors have not been to Africa in many generations. Many of them are mixed-race, anyway, so one might as well say they are Europeans in diaspora. Which of course makes just as little sense. AA's are Americans and nothing else. AA's don't speak African languages, they don't dress in African clothes, they don't eat African foods, there is nothing African about AA's except for mere genes, partially that is. My impression is that some AA's have that naive idea of some African homeland in mind, a place where they are welcome and at home. In my view that is utter nonsense. Africans don't need AA's for anything. They have more than enough mouths to feed already. No place for dreamers who don't get their own act together at home...
And yes, except for skin color AA's are much more European than African. They are not more welcome in Africa than they are in Europe.

There are also lots of white people living permanently in Africa. African countries let in people that contribute, no matter what color they are or where they are from. There is no preference for AA's just because they happen to be of a similar color. The only foreigners that really help some Africans are the Chinese, who are mostly racists, but at least they do bring about change and invest and build a lot.
Why? Cause your post is base on generalizing if you don't like it or think it doesn't apply to you stop generalizing. and you still didn't respond anything I said. It's like your trying to not, listen.

I said

"pan-Africa" is not a sole idea, it's abstract people have different definitions to what it is. And the term could be use to apply to different contexts and situation. Therefore it can never be wrong or right. Pan African could anything from civil rights, entertainment, learning African and African diaspora history. Political and etc. It's dozens of different topics to different people with different interests.

Person A Pan Africanism maybe learning African History
Person B Pan Africanism maybe learning the history of the African Diaspora
Person C Pan Africanism has nothing to do with history just into pop culture.
Person D Pan Africanism maybe about civil rights.
Person E Pan Africanism maybe about Economics and trade
Person G Pan Africanism maybe Africans uniting with Africans and have nothing to do with AA, or AD
Person F Pan Africanism maybe has nothing to do with Africa, Just learning about African Diaspora.
and etc.

It's not a sole ideal, It's dozens of different topics to different people with different interests into different thing. Do you understand this. Your post are these vague sweeping generalizations, that have no center and often contradict themselves. The Term "Pan Africanism" is so abstract it litteally could be attach into anything related to African and African diaspora.



Every time you respond you respond like Pan African-ism a specific thing. it's not. Listen

You post is about African American going to Africa, beside it's erroneous to suggest where people can immigrate to. that's like saying different people around the World shouldn't immigrant to the US they belong only tn their host county and no where else. See what I did? See how stupid that sounds? But my point was who told you the point of Pan Africanism is immigrating to Africa? Your making an assumption... Again Pan Africanism is not a sole idea someone maybe interested immigrating to a African nation others maybe not.Again Listen


But let me just break down your series of Assumptions, cause your post is like a matrix of overlapping assumption.

1. "There are also lots of white people living permanently in Africa."......... So Who said anything about Pan Africanism is for or against someone white living in Africa? In your mind Pan African most is something Anti white isn't? This is what I'm talking about you have these built notions, The error maybe pan Africanism is nothing you think it is.... Also They maybe not have native African ancestry but who told you white people can't celebrate pan African culture?

2. "Many of them are mixed-race, anyway, so one might as well say they are Europeans in diaspora." Who told you pan Africanism is anti mix? And People can't learn about Europe also if they choose? Who told you have to learn one thing? How on Earth is this an conflict?


3. "Africans are not AN oppressed and exploited people" This is such general blank statement, Besides I didn't suggest this, Much like your "immigrant to Africa" assumption, who told you Pan Africnism is just about Civil rights in Africa? Some one may be or maybe not to into that it's there choice. Someone maybe into learning history, more cultural and economical exchanges with African nations is not a sole idea. Again Listen.

4. "Africans don't need AA's for anything." Who said they did?

5. "They have more than enough mouths to feed already. No place for dreamers who don't get their own act together at home..." Besides this comment is borderline racist. It's generalizing and loaded language, and you just contradict your self. You just said "Africans are not AN oppressed and exploited people." than you reverse the notion, " They have more than enough mouths to feed already" Your argument has no center, You saying what ever fits even if it's a contradiction to your last point just to argue. And that's just the first sentence. In the second you made another sweeping generations "dreamers who don't get their own act together at home" 1. "dreamers" when people have different motives, 2. "who don't get their own act together at home" Is self explanatory why that's a generalization and it's why borderline racist.

6. "AA's don't speak African languages, they don't dress in African clothes, they don't eat African foods," Again your contradicting your self. This why I said argue has no centers. You can't criticize Pan Africanism and criticize a lack of it at the same time. Your actually making the cause why some want to to learn about Africa.


7. "My impression is that some AA's have that naive idea of some African homeland in mind, a place where they are welcome and at home." Once again your reviling you don't know what your talking about and generalizing.


"That is why there is no pan-Africa. Many of those peoples can't stand each other. Any two European peoples are closer to each other than people in southern and northern Nigeria are to each other. " Again your contradicting your self. You can't criticize Pan Africanism and criticize a lack of it at the same time....

Again you have center in your argument you said

A " Any two European peoples are closer to each other than people in southern and northern Nigeria are to each other........

than you said ........

B " Because Spaniards or Italians don't give a crap about Germans or Danes, and vice versa. And that's OK. There is no need for any pan-whatever.................

You can't criticize Pan Africanism and criticize a lack of it at the same time.... this is what happen in Quote A your saying Europe counties have more in common with each other..... this defeats your own argument. Your saying Europeans are more together. Because you think this benefits your point but it actually makes mines. in Quote B you convincingly switch your argument basically saying Europeans aren't "pan" but in the first quote A your saying Europe is more.


European being more united then Africans, and the European diaspora having closer ties to Europe than than the African diaspora to Africa. Actually makes the point why more pan Africans is need. You contradicting yourself.

-----------------------------------

Do you even know what the term "The West", "Western Culture", "Western civilization" means,


The Study of Western Culture

History_of_Western_civilization

Western culture - definition of Western culture by The Free Dictionary

Watch how the centers of Western culture migrated over 2,000 years - Quartz

What is Culture? | Definition of Culture


Quote:
Western culture, sometimes equated with Western civilization, Western lifestyle, Western society or European civilization is a term used very broadly to refer to a heritage of social norms, ethical values, traditional customs, belief systems, political systems, and specific artifacts and technologies that have some origin or association with Europe, having both indigenous and foreign origin. The term has come to be applied by people of European ethnicity to countries whose history is strongly marked by European immigration, colonisation, and influence, such as the continents of the Americas and Australasia, whose current demographic majority is of European ethnicity, and is not restricted to the continent of Europe.
Basically saying Western culture is basically saying a country that is majority white and relates thing back to Europe.

The whole concept is Pan European itself.

For example

Ballet is from Europe..... but nobody is going to say it only should be in Europe,
The Battles is from the UK but nobody is going to say they should only been popular in Europe,
No body in America is going to say The Greek, Romans Middle age Europe and the renaissance only should taught in Europe.
No body in America is going to say dishes from Europe only Should be Europe.

So your saying it's ok for white American to have knowledge or celebrate this stuff.

But you find issue with people of African descent wanting to learn their own history, Ancestry, and interact with other people of African descent? And don't get the hypocrisy.

Your not getting it, cause your already have this fix notions to what pan African is, if some white American was studying the renaissance or like European band you wouldn't be saying "that whole idea is basically based on a racist and victim mindset."..... it's like what? That is so random. This means you have a deep loaded minded set to what Pan Africanism.
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Old 03-08-2016, 06:42 PM
AFP AFP started this thread
 
6,898 posts, read 4,245,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperiorMegaman View Post
You're not racist because you're dating a woman outside your race? Fine. I'm not sexist because I only date outside of my own gender(IE I only date women.) You can date out and still be racist. Plenty of slave masters (and Thomas Jefferson) can attest to this. That some white person doesn't buy into the Pan-African ideology(not myth) is not my concern.(notice how you dismiss an ideology and philosophy held by millions of Africans as a myth. Not Racist, huh?) I only care that you're trying to impose your beliefs on people and think they are right because you're a white American man.





There are thousands of different tribes speaking thousands of different languages. All of us have faced oppression and humiliation and have common challenges--this is why pan-Africanism exists.





The United States is composed of 50 states and several different territories across the globe. It is also home to nearly every race, religion and ethnic group on Earth. Yes, there is a pan-America and it is called the US--now, who exactly counts as "American" is a different story.



The European Union is Pan-Europe--some people call it the United States of Europe. Europeans living in the Eurozone can travel without a passport. There is a common currency. The European Union is not just a Trade Union.



Look! He's doing it again. Using his magic white man powers to tell us Black folk what our place in society and the world is. The heritage of Black Americans is in Africa, period. It does not matter where or when they were born.



Again, what is your point? Lots of Africans in Africa don't speak African languages--their native languages are actually on the verge of extinction in some cases. They also wear American clothes and eat American food (made popular by Black Americans). Black Americans are not seen as Americans in this country--and in many cases, they are not even seen as human. Moving back is an option for some of us.




Again with the magic white man powers. You may not think you're a racist, but you certainly sound like one. Now you're saying very clearly that Black Americans are stupid and lazy and need "to get their act together." Have you ever even spoken to an African or African American? Have you been to Africa? Do you realize that Most Black Americans are not in poverty or jail, and that about a third of Africans in Africa are middle class?



Nope, like I said, Blacks in the new world aren't even seen as Human in some cases. Educate yourself



So what? A lot of black people live in Europe. How many Africans have you spoken to? Where are you getting your information? Educate yourself.
1. Which tribe are you a member of and which African country are you from exactly? You are an American have some pride in your heritage.

2. No there is no similarity between the USA and it's 50 states in comparison to Africa and it's 54 countries with thousands of different ethnic groups many of which have nothing in common which each other.

3. The European Union is nothing like the United States and they certainly don't see themselves as one people or nation.

4. You have convinced yourself that this is true.
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Old 03-08-2016, 08:47 PM
 
4,434 posts, read 4,422,235 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFP View Post
1. Which tribe are you a member of and which African country are you from exactly? You are an American have some pride in your heritage.

2. No there is no similarity between the USA and it's 50 states in comparison to Africa and it's 54 countries with thousands of different ethnic groups many of which have nothing in common which each other.

3. The European Union is nothing like the United States and they certainly don't see themselves as one people or nation.

4. You have convinced yourself that this is true.
Why do someone Black got be from Africa to learn about Africa?

In American schools they teach about Greek, The Roman Empire, Mid evil Europe , The renaissance,

I'm not Greek. I'm not Italian at all. but it okay to learn about European history, but because I'm not from Africa, So I don't suppose to know about Africa history how does that make sense.


http://www.myinterestingfacts.com/wp...ssance-Pic.jpg


How come Hollywood gets to make all these epic about Europe I'm mean it's American Hollywood,



http://www.asset1.net/tv/pictures/mo...heart-05-4.jpg






This from Spain/Italy why is this commonly eat in America, Cause you know Black don't suppose to learn about Africa culture, but it's ok to just take European ones.






This is straight up an Irish Holiday, but yet no body call this un American.

http://www.123dentist.com/wp-content...t_patrick2.jpg











Ballet is from Europe, why do American, Australian do ballet? If Black American wanted to take an African dance class, people would say that's un American.



Classical music is from Europe, Why do America have orchestras?






I'm very very very sure America has way more cultural exchange with Europe in pope culture, So can't Black American learn what going on in at least in English speaking counties in Africa.







http://smilefactory.at.ua/FOTO/Nostalgiya/19.jpg


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CW8vHZ6U0AEftmR.jpg

Again why do some one Black got be from Africa to learn about Africa? Cause you clearly don't have to be from Europe to learn European history, European traditions nor keep tabs on pop culture their.


"WEB dubois coin the phrase "double consciousness"

Understanding W.E.B. Du Bois

Under this philosophy Dubois spoke about the racist double standards that you can't be proudly American and embrace your heritage of someone of African decent.

Who told you because some black wants to learn about their African heritage means they are not proud Americans?


Did you think your history teacher wasn't a proud American cause he or she taught you about The renaissance?
Do you do think someone playing classic music isn't American?
Do you do think all these European Epic films by Hollywood is un American?
What about some liking a British band are they un American?

The Reason why Most Americans don't want to learn about Africa and their African heritage because their racist double standard of isolation. I can learn European history but I better not learn about Africa, You can pay attention to UK pop culture music artists but you better not know anything Nigerian, Ghana, South African artists.

Last edited by chiatldal; 03-08-2016 at 08:58 PM..
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Old 03-08-2016, 09:11 PM
AFP AFP started this thread
 
6,898 posts, read 4,245,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
Why do someone Black got be from Africa to learn about Africa?

In American schools they teach about Greek, The Roman Empire, Mid evil Europe , The renaissance,

I'm not Greek. I'm not Italian at all. but it okay to learn about European history, but because I'm not from Africa, So I don't suppose to know about Africa history how does that make sense.


http://www.myinterestingfacts.com/wp...ssance-Pic.jpg


How come Hollywood gets to make all these epic about Europe I'm mean it's American Hollywood,



http://www.asset1.net/tv/pictures/mo...heart-05-4.jpg






This from Spain/Italy why is this commonly eat in America, Cause you know Black don't suppose to learn about Africa culture, but it's ok to just take European ones.






This is straight up an Irish Holiday, but yet no body call this un American.

http://www.123dentist.com/wp-content...t_patrick2.jpg











Ballet is from Europe, why do American, Australian do ballet? If Black American wanted to take an African dance class, people would say that's un American.



Classical music is from Europe, Why do America have orchestras?






I'm very very very sure America has way more cultural exchange with Europe in pope culture, So can't Black American learn what going on in at least in English speaking counties in Africa.







http://smilefactory.at.ua/FOTO/Nostalgiya/19.jpg


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CW8vHZ6U0AEftmR.jpg

Again why do some one Black got be from Africa to learn about Africa? Cause you clearly don't have to be from Europe to learn European history, European traditions nor keep tabs on pop culture their.


"WEB dubois coin the phrase "double consciousness"

Understanding W.E.B. Du Bois

Under this philosophy Dubois spoke about the racist double standards that you can't be proudly American and embrace your heritage of someone of African decent.

Who told you because some black wants to learn about their African heritage means they are not proud Americans?


Did you think your history teacher wasn't a proud American cause he or she taught you about The renaissance?
Do you do think someone playing classic music isn't American?
Do you do think all these European Epic films by Hollywood is un American?
What about some liking a British band are they un American?

The Reason why Most Americans don't want to learn about Africa and their African heritage because their racist double standard of isolation. I can learn European history but I better not learn about Africa, You can pay attention to UK pop culture music artists but you better not know anything Nigerian, Ghana, South African artists.
They don't have to be from Africa. I'm not even black and I like learning about it.
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Old 03-08-2016, 09:29 PM
AFP AFP started this thread
 
6,898 posts, read 4,245,951 times
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[quote=SuperiorMegaman;43291191]
Quote:

My heritage is on the African continent--just as yours is on the European continent--if you go far back enough. Get over it.




The US is 50 states and several territories across the globe, Speaking a common language and taking in people from all stripes. Africa can do it too.


Again, you can travel through the Eurozone without a passport and there is a common currency--kinda like the US.


What are you talking about?

1.Not the same thing I still have ties was born in Europe still speak my native language and have familial ties to the same village for over 500 years.

2. Good luck with that do you follow the news? They can't even work together and squash the terrorist groups.

3. I bolded it pretty clear what I was saying.
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Old 03-08-2016, 09:51 PM
AFP AFP started this thread
 
6,898 posts, read 4,245,951 times
Reputation: 5878
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperiorMegaman;43291636[B
]So?[/b]



Oh, you mean the terror groups that the US created in the first place? You sound a bit racist...
You do realize that the US and Europe manipulated Africa and exploit tribalism, right?
Just stating that having DNA from a continent doesn't mean you have ties.

I'm not surprised you think I sound a bit racist you have a habit of accusing other posters of it. Take the word "can't" and substitute it for "don't" . Define racist I'll let you know whether I meet your criteria. But no I'm not that word doesn't scare me.
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Old 03-09-2016, 08:00 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,463 posts, read 19,332,544 times
Reputation: 8521
Wow, you people have a lot of time it seems I don't so I can't respond to all those endless posts.
Just a few comments:

I am not racist in any way. Your accusing me of being racist seems like a last resort because you don't like my views on this topic and can't convince me of anything you have said so far. Some of your posts are linguistically so weird I have a hard time understanding them.

So, when everyone has a different and arbitrary definition of pan-Africanism, why even talk about it?
There is an article on it on Wiki.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Africanism

Only read the first few paragraphs and judging from those I will stick to my earlier statements, i.e. that according to that definition there currently is no pan-Africanism, and that I don't even think there should be because it is based on an ideology I don't share.
I am against that idea that thousands of peoples should somehow unite just because they happen to have similar pigmentation and live on or had remote ancestors from the same (in this case giant) continent.
I find it racist to try and force all people and peoples of African descent into some kind of union just because they have similar pigmentation; we would ignore their differences and the simple fact that many of them can't stand each other.

US Americans are supporting a presidential candidate who wants to build a wall between the US and Mexico. So obviously many Americans don't like the idea of pan-Americanism, either.

Similar views in Europe. It is simply human nature to want to be distinct from other peoples.

Last edited by Neuling; 03-09-2016 at 08:11 AM..
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