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Old 03-09-2016, 12:04 PM
AFP AFP started this thread
 
6,898 posts, read 4,245,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Wow, you people have a lot of time it seems I don't so I can't respond to all those endless posts.
Just a few comments:

I am not racist in any way. Your accusing me of being racist seems like a last resort because you don't like my views on this topic and can't convince me of anything you have said so far. Some of your posts are linguistically so weird I have a hard time understanding them.

So, when everyone has a different and arbitrary definition of pan-Africanism, why even talk about it?
There is an article on it on Wiki.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Africanism

Only read the first few paragraphs and judging from those I will stick to my earlier statements, i.e. that according to that definition there currently is no pan-Africanism, and that I don't even think there should be because it is based on an ideology I don't share.
I am against that idea that thousands of peoples should somehow unite just because they happen to have similar pigmentation and live on or had remote ancestors from the same (in this case giant) continent.
I find it racist to try and force all people and peoples of African descent into some kind of union just because they have similar pigmentation; we would ignore their differences and the simple fact that many of them can't stand each other.

US Americans are supporting a presidential candidate who wants to build a wall between the US and Mexico. So obviously many Americans don't like the idea of pan-Americanism, either.

Similar views in Europe. It is simply human nature to want to be distinct from other peoples.

Pretty much I've noticed that pattern with a few individuals on this sub forum. Possibly they believe it gives them leverage. Racists are really quick to call others racist sometimes.

Let's take a look at the definition of racism. Now I wonder how the accusers determined how you or I believed in the superiority of one race over the other. When dealing with overly sensitive types with a delusional victim mentality facts and evidence bear little weight.

rac·ism
[ˈrāˌsizəm]



NOUN

  1. prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior:
    "a program to combat racism" synonyms: racial discrimination · racialism · racial prejudice · [more]
    xenophobia · chauvinism · bigotry · casteism



    • the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

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Old 03-09-2016, 02:23 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,463 posts, read 19,332,544 times
Reputation: 8521
Again, a racist is someone who thinks their own race is superior to others. That is not what I think, though, hence I am no racist, period.

I have not criticized Africans for not being pan-African. How could I when I am against pan-whatever?

HipHop? Really? Africans are rather conservative people and the last thing African parents want is for their kids to behave like those American thugs with gold chains around their necks etc.

I don't like the way those few pan-Africanists out there are hijacking black people and declaring themselves the speakers of thousands of peoples who couldn't care less about each other. Most Africans are not pan-Africanist at all, they just want their own families and clans, at best countries, to do well, if necessary at the expense of the rest, just like humans all over the planet. That is human nature.

Pan-Americanism is the US? Keep dreaming

Regarding African-Americans, the US is their only home and their future. A few individuals might migrate to other countries, just like a few Europeans or Canadians do. But for the bulk of AA's the US is and always will be their only home.
Nor is there any point in importing African views, for the simple reason that the West is basically ahead in every respect. And the problems we do have can only be solved from within our Western societies, which AA's are a part of just like Europeans.

One big problem with the pan-African idea is that it keeps the victim mentality alive, blacks against the oh so evil whites, totally ignoring the fact that Africans helped white colonialists, hunted and sold each other as slaves to them, etc.

Last edited by Neuling; 03-09-2016 at 02:44 PM..
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Old 03-10-2016, 07:13 AM
 
5,823 posts, read 10,162,048 times
Reputation: 4536
Delusional fantasy.
For once, Africa is the most divided continent of all, with 52 different states. And each statelet even so small (think Sao Tomé for instance) extremekly jealous of its precious , recently (or relatively recently, for most in the early sixties) acquired independence. If there is a tendency, it's for more division to come (read : South Sudan, or Somaliland). Panafricanism if it ever existed is dead and buried.
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Old 03-10-2016, 07:50 AM
 
4,434 posts, read 4,422,235 times
Reputation: 3500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Wow, you people have a lot of time it seems I don't so I can't respond to all those endless posts.
Just a few comments:

I am not racist in any way. Your accusing me of being racist seems like a last resort because you don't like my views on this topic and can't convince me of anything you have said so far. Some of your posts are linguistically so weird I have a hard time understanding them.

So, when everyone has a different and arbitrary definition of pan-Africanism, why even talk about it?
There is an article on it on Wiki.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Africanism

Only read the first few paragraphs and judging from those I will stick to my earlier statements, i.e. that according to that definition there currently is no pan-Africanism, and that I don't even think there should be because it is based on an ideology I don't share.
I am against that idea that thousands of peoples should somehow unite just because they happen to have similar pigmentation and live on or had remote ancestors from the same (in this case giant) continent.
I find it racist to try and force all people and peoples of African descent into some kind of union just because they have similar pigmentation; we would ignore their differences and the simple fact that many of them can't stand each other.

US Americans are supporting a presidential candidate who wants to build a wall between the US and Mexico. So obviously many Americans don't like the idea of pan-Americanism, either.

Similar views in Europe. It is simply human nature to want to be distinct from other peoples.

Ummmm no...... I Mention racism because your generalizing hasty generalization and over stereotyping is racist. Racists are very narrow minded people I didn't bring that up just by chance. You posts are full of sweeping generalization.

Racist line 1
"that whole idea is basically based on a racist and victim mindset"...... No, that's Prejudice, Your assuming someone one mind set.

Racist line 2.
"They have more than enough mouths to feed already. No place for dreamers who don't get their own act together at home"..... this an negative statement about Black Americans


Your oblivious The "Pan Africanism" term comes from The Pan-African Conferences and Pan African Congress which were events that Africans and the African diaspora leaders met and address issue of the time Racism and the Americas and Colonization in Africa. Some of these leaders want on to form Civil right groups such as the NAACP. Other became important figures for African and West Indianian nations independence.


Pan-African Congress, 2nd Pan-African_Congress


Kwame Nkrumah first president of Ghana
W.E.B. Du Bois, scholar, Co one of the co founder The NAACP
Julius Nyerere first president of Tanzania
Jomo Kenyatta first president of Kenya
Jaja Wachuku Nigerian politician
Obafemi Awolowo Nigerian politician
Trinidadian George_Padmore politician
Dudley Thompson Jamaican politician

and etc...


"I am against that idea that thousands of peoples should somehow unite just because they happen to have similar pigmentation and live on or had remote ancestors from the same (in this case giant) continent."



Besides there a billion Black people not thousands If you haven't realize...... that's not my view of What Pan Africanism is...... this is called a straw man. A Straw man is when someone argue something as your Position that's not position.

Fallacy: Straw Man

Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.


Your jumping the gun to the extreme, making your own argument up and not listening I don't think Black people should learn or be connected to Africa. Anymore or less than White People are to Europe. But that's the thing White Americans know waaay more about European History and Culture and way more connected to European pop culture.


If white European pop stars and Actors can Break into American media is ok, why you think there's something wrong if Black Americans were more aware of African artists. White Americans know the history of Europe schools taught European History The Greek, The Roman Empire, Mid evil Europe, The renaissance, but you think it's wrong for Black Americans to learn different African kingdom across?

My view of Pan Africanism isn't anything more than this, Your view point Pan Africanism is a straw man. Your not really talking about Pan Africanism your talking Black Nationalism which is something completely different. You did this because generalizing and being prejudice.

People have different views, some people have more views extremely than others. And your posts already assumes the extremes. For example Pan Africanism is a tool for peace and cooperation in Africa. Pan African as far Africans uniting but you took it litteally.


"So, when everyone has a different and arbitrary definition of pan-Africanism, why even talk about it?" Because it's more of an idiom word you pretty much can just attach it any intercultural exchange between one Black population and the next and call it Pan Africanism. Also I'm Geography nerd I love learning about different cultures and history. Europe, Asia and etc it don't make matter. "Africiana studies" is study of African cultures influences on Americas. By default this would be pan Africanism.


The Issue I have with your post, your posts aren't really about Pan Africans your post are more about Black nationalism. Which is not the same thing. A white person studying Europe or a white American teen listening to a British band is not the same thing as a KKK member. You misinterpret what "unity" means by Pan Africanist to something extreme. If your not racist stop the off the wall generalization.
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Old 03-10-2016, 08:00 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,463 posts, read 19,332,544 times
Reputation: 8521
@superior

No, I have not criticized them for not being pan-African. I have merely stated some reasons why they are not. But since I do not consider pan-Africanism a goal, I can't criticize them for not being pan-African, of course.

I know African Hip-Hop. I live in Portugal, a country with a huge African community due to its colonial past. We have dedicated African music programs on TV, made by Africans for Africans, not for whites. And there I see what African Hip-Hop is mostly like. Vulgar, sexist, primitive, fake angry, etc. Africa is better off without it.

I observe people, that is my research. As I said, we have a lot of Africans here. They are not any nicer or better than white people, they are just as capitalist, consumerist, materialist, egoist etc., maybe even more so.
And they are happy to have made it to Europe, even those that are not doing well, they don't return to Africa, although they could. And why? Because life in Europe is way better than life in Africa, albeit not perfect of course. You can blame white people for all the things you have mentioned (I am well aware of the dark chapters of Europeans' history), but at the end of the day, black people and other immigrants seek exactly what white people have created by now, not seldom emulating them. I am not saying this is a good or a bad thing, just observing.

Likewise I know of the history of blacks and other minorities in the US. While it was ugly, things have changed quite a bit, and the people alive today have nothing to do with slavery and all that. Being a stagnating minority, African-Americans should sooner or later learn to live with the fact that the US is for the most part a country where white people's culture dominates, even when continued by non-white people. That is why I am against that 'we blacks vs the rest' crap, it only hurts black people when they try to keep themselves apart from the majority, based on the illusion that they are different and don't belong there just because of the past.

I don't have anything against Africans as such, but I am not blind to their problems, such as corruption, nepotism, superstition or sexism. And much of that is not the fault of foreigners.

You are the one saying there is pan-Africanism, so why don't you like my saying that Africans hunted and sold each other to the colonialists? That is just the way it was. And yes, indeed Africans have always had wars as well (just like European tribes), which reflects the lack of any pan-African mindset. A Yoruba doesn't like a Hausa just because they happen to have similar pigmentation and live on the same continent, in the same country even.

Funny when Africans complain about colonialism, they usually blame whites, but I rarely hear complaints about Muslims, who messed up Africa before Europeans did.

Funny you mention pollution and capitalism. Ever been to Africa? it is utterly capitalist and polluted.

Yes, I know oppression, exploitation, racism exist, or rather existed. That is the important thing. Today there are laws and when someone feels they have been abused due to their race, they can sue the abuser, which was not possible in the distant past. So yes, I do think African-Americans should get over their past and move on, shed that image of the angry race that hurts them so much. Nobody likes angry, paranoid people. Most white people today are very nice people. Sure, there is a certain percentage that will always be racist, but that is also the case with blacks and Asians.

Stop referring to me as you when speaking about races. I am not the speaker of my race, which I simply happen to be part of. It is neither my merit nor my fault. You should really get rid of that idea that the people of a given race (that word is outdated anyway and scientifically dubious) are some homogeneous block, thinking and acting in unison.

And no, pan-Americanism does not exist, either. The US is just one of dozens of American countries who don't give a crap about each other. The US consists of 50 states, but every other country also consists of states/provinces or whatever term they use. Whether or not 3 US states used to be republics is totally irrelevant in this context. The US is not even pan-North American. Nafta can't change that, either.

Last edited by Neuling; 03-10-2016 at 08:40 AM..
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Old 03-10-2016, 08:26 AM
 
4,434 posts, read 4,422,235 times
Reputation: 3500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFP View Post
Pretty much I've noticed that pattern with a few individuals on this sub forum. Possibly they believe it gives them leverage. Racists are really quick to call others racist sometimes.

Let's take a look at the definition of racism. Now I wonder how the accusers determined how you or I believed in the superiority of one race over the other. When dealing with overly sensitive types with a delusional victim mentality facts and evidence bear little weight.

rac·ism
[ˈrāˌsizəm]



NOUN

  1. prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior:
    "a program to combat racism" synonyms: racial discrimination · racialism · racial prejudice · [more]
    xenophobia · chauvinism · bigotry · casteism



    • the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

So would prefer the term Prejudice more?

Prejudice | Definition of Prejudice by Merriam-Webster


Quote Neuling "that whole idea is basically based on a racist and victim mindset. "

Besides he's the first to call people racist which is ironic to your point...

He post isn't about Pan Africanism it's about about Black nationalism which not the same thing.



Ummmm Some Black mention Africa equals their racists? this what I gather from his post.
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Old 03-10-2016, 08:36 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,463 posts, read 19,332,544 times
Reputation: 8521
@chiatldal

Generalization (which is totally ok in such a discussion, nobody said there are no exceptions) has nothing to do with racism. Again, racism implies that someone thinks one race - usually their own - is better than others. But I don't think that way. If I did I could not respect my girlfriend for instance.

Of course I can make negative statements about black Americans. I also make negative statements about Germans and Chinese, for instance.

Essentially, to me pan-Africanism implies black racism. After all, Berbers, Arabs etc. living in northern Africa are usually not included in that idea.

When you complain about history lessons, you forget the simply fact that Europe was historically much more important than Africa. It is the cradle of Western civilization, which kind of dominates the world today. I don't see anything black African of global relevance. But that is not my fault. The lack of African history in history classes is not due to racism, but due to a lack of content.
And the media? You should compare apples to apples. American whites know very few if any European actors, just like they know very few if any African actors. They only know actors that move to the US, no matter where from. I know Hollywood has a minority problem, but Hollywood is not society. The minority problem is simply an economic one because white people are by far the biggest audience, so studios fear their films would flop if they cast minorities in leading roles.

There is not only one definition of Pan-Africanism, so your saying my view of it is wrong and yours is right seems a bit absurd. Do you really think you will convince anyone with that attitude? Pan simply means across, including, uniting, etc.

Pan-Africanism for peace? Just a few days ago I read that Mozambique is almost back to a civil war. Pan-Africanism does not exist in the minds of people who are fighting for survival, which applies to many if not most Africans, who can not rely on a social security system. So not seldom does pan-African simply mean smuggling and crime across borders. Culturally there is no pan-Africanism just like there is no pan-Asianism. Each ethnic group and country acts in its own interest, at the expense of the rest.
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Old 03-10-2016, 09:51 AM
AFP AFP started this thread
 
6,898 posts, read 4,245,951 times
Reputation: 5878
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
So would prefer the term Prejudice more?

Prejudice | Definition of Prejudice by Merriam-Webster


Quote Neuling "that whole idea is basically based on a racist and victim mindset. "

Besides he's the first to call people racist which is ironic to your point...

He post isn't about Pan Africanism it's about about Black nationalism which not the same thing.



Ummmm Some Black mention Africa equals their racists? this what I gather from his post.

1. I was talking about SuperiorMegaman's post #177 actually he was quick to state "You sound a bit racist" and I have noticed that he is quick to call other posters racist. I wasn't even talking about you. Why are you feeling guilty lol? I wonder what his username is a play on sounds a little strange.

2. The dots don't connect but you can see whatever you like. I've mentioned Africa many times on this forum should that mean something?(Rhetorical question)

3. Neuling can speak about his own ideas if he chooses.

4. Prejudice is different that racism and everyone is prejudiced whether you want to admit it or not.

prej·u·dice
[ˈprejədəs]



NOUN

  1. preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience:
    "English prejudice against foreigners" · [more]
    "anti-Jewish prejudices"

    synonyms: preconceived idea · preconception · prejudgment


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Old 03-10-2016, 10:17 AM
 
4,434 posts, read 4,422,235 times
Reputation: 3500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
@chiatldal

Generalization (which is totally ok in such a discussion, nobody said there are no exceptions) has nothing to do with racism. Again, racism implies that someone thinks one race - usually their own - is better than others. But I don't think that way. If I did I could not respect my girlfriend for instance.
No it's not
Fallacy: Hasty Generalization



Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
@superior

No, I have not criticized them for not being pan-African. I have merely stated some reasons why they are not. But since I do not consider pan-Africanism a goal, I can't criticize them for not being pan-African, of course.

I know African Hip-Hop. I live in Portugal, a country with a huge African community due to its colonial past. We have dedicated African music programs on TV, made by Africans for Africans, not for whites. And there I see what African Hip-Hop is mostly like. Vulgar, sexist, primitive, fake angry, etc. Africa is better off without it.

I observe people, that is my research. As I said, we have a lot of Africans here. They are not any nicer or better than white people, they are just as capitalist, consumerist, materialist, egoist etc., maybe even more so.
And they are happy to have made it to Europe, even those that are not doing well, they don't return to Africa, although they could. And why? Because life in Europe is way better than life in Africa, albeit not perfect of course. You can blame white people for all the things you have mentioned (I am well aware of the dark chapters of Europeans' history), but at the end of the day, black people and other immigrants seek exactly what white people have created by now, not seldom emulating them. I am not saying this is a good or a bad thing, just observing.

Likewise I know of the history of blacks and other minorities in the US. While it was ugly, things have changed quite a bit, and the people alive today have nothing to do with slavery and all that. Being a stagnating minority, African-Americans should sooner or later learn to live with the fact that the US is for the most part a country where white people's culture dominates, even when continued by non-white people. That is why I am against that 'we blacks vs the rest' crap, it only hurts black people when they try to keep themselves apart from the majority, based on the illusion that they are different and don't belong there just because of the past.

I don't have anything against Africans as such, but I am not blind to their problems, such as corruption, nepotism, superstition or sexism. And much of that is not the fault of foreigners.

You are the one saying there is pan-Africanism, so why don't you like my saying that Africans hunted and sold each other to the colonialists? That is just the way it was. And yes, indeed Africans have always had wars as well (just like European tribes), which reflects the lack of any pan-African mindset. A Yoruba doesn't like a Hausa just because they happen to have similar pigmentation and live on the same continent, in the same country even.

Funny when Africans complain about colonialism, they usually blame whites, but I rarely hear complaints about Muslims, who messed up Africa before Europeans did.

Funny you mention pollution and capitalism. Ever been to Africa? it is utterly capitalist and polluted.

Yes, I know oppression, exploitation, racism exist, or rather existed. That is the important thing. Today there are laws and when someone feels they have been abused due to their race, they can sue the abuser, which was not possible in the distant past. So yes, I do think African-Americans should get over their past and move on, shed that image of the angry race that hurts them so much. Nobody likes angry, paranoid people. Most white people today are very nice people. Sure, there is a certain percentage that will always be racist, but that is also the case with blacks and Asians.

Stop referring to me as you when speaking about races. I am not the speaker of my race, which I simply happen to be part of. It is neither my merit nor my fault. You should really get rid of that idea that the people of a given race (that word is outdated anyway and scientifically dubious) are some homogeneous block, thinking and acting in unison.
You are so dang prejudice is not funny, A first I thought may you just didn't know better and your not prejudice at heart. But no, you mind is full of stereotypes and negative generalization about different racial back to the point it's ridiculous.


Some whites have a guilt complex. To the point Black people are not allow to talk about history to them. If your not a slave holder from 200 years ago. You should have issue with black talking about history even slavery. But it gets silly when that person let that guilt complex develop to point actually prejudice.


You taking about problems, and corruption in Africa is not Revolutionary. And you talking about kingdoms fought each no duh...... Africans sold kingdoms sold other groups in Slavery no duh. No Pan Africanist talk about that? Your showing more and more how you have that guilt complex. Hell here's a link to Henry gates a pan Africanist talking about the slave kingdoms.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxydlMaikBY

Nobody Blamming white people about anything you just randomly inject this in the conservation... This is why I started to call you racist because you bust in the thread making sweeping generalization. This also turn the thread in a different direction which it wasn't at all. For example you calling Black people the angry race if you feel that way that would litteally fit definition of racial inferiority cause you generalize a race with something negative.

One of weird things racist do besides your randomly injecting points saying people are blaming you actually complaining about Black working together also at the same time. There's no win.

As said I don't think Black people should learn or be connected to Africa. Anymore or less than White People are to Europe. But that's the thing White Americans know waaay more about European History and Culture and way more connected to European pop culture.

Also The US is a multicultural nation I'm very pound be American. One cool things about America it embraces diversity at a least most of it anyways, But people are different religions, different background and etc. You basically made issue out nothing Pan Africanism is not the same thing as Black nationalist. And nobody is blaming white people these are pre notions you already had before you even enter the thread.

Last edited by chiatldal; 03-10-2016 at 10:32 AM..
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Old 03-10-2016, 10:19 AM
 
4,434 posts, read 4,422,235 times
Reputation: 3500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFP View Post
1. I was talking about SuperiorMegaman's post #177 actually he was quick to state "You sound a bit racist" and I have noticed that he is quick to call other posters racist. I wasn't even talking about you. Why are you feeling guilty lol? I wonder what his username is a play on sounds a little strange.

2. The dots don't connect but you can see whatever you like. I've mentioned Africa many times on this forum should that mean something?(Rhetorical question)

3. Neuling can speak about his own ideas if he chooses.

4. Prejudice is different that racism and everyone is prejudiced whether you want to admit it or not.

prej·u·dice
[ˈprejədəs]



NOUN

  1. preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience:
    "English prejudice against foreigners" · [more]
    "anti-Jewish prejudices"

    synonyms: preconceived idea · preconception · prejudgment


Prejudice and racism is related.

He can speak his mind but that won't change the fact he keep making sweeping prejudice statements, and it's not normal for some to continuing to make prejudice statements . And He does fall under racist

Unless he meant by generalizing 40 million Black people the Angry race as something positive it's negative inferiority. You can't generalize people negatively and say oh I'm not racist.

Last edited by chiatldal; 03-10-2016 at 10:53 AM..
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