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Old 05-20-2016, 08:15 AM
 
Location: San Antonio
5,286 posts, read 4,202,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
People can find all sorts of ways to connect. But naively believing that "we are all one" and then getting excited when some African cooks food like your great grandma did, doesn't change the fact.


Blacks of the Americas are a western people. When we engage Africans, we come with our western values and attitudes.


Most often Africans find it hilarious when we go into "pretend African" mode. Yes, an African OUTSIDE of Africa, might go into pretense mode, but get them when they are together and you will see.


AN indication of this was up to a generation ago when many Africans still carved scars on their faces to indicate ethnic identity. NONE of the militant Black Panthers did so, and would have recoiled with horror if some white person suggested that they should. To them that was too "Tarzan".


As to the building economically joke. Listen black Americans cannot even do this in Chicago, where the largest concentration of them exist, almost 1 million people.


I select Chicago instead of the more diverse NYC, because it means that even a people (most of whom had roots in the Deep South) cannot find commonality to trust each other, the way that other ethnic groups so, what hope is there for some villager from Nigeria to trust some kid from Compton?


In fact I can see the contact now. The Nigerian employing all the white stereotypes of the black kid from Compton, and that black kid employing all the white stereotypes of what an African is.


I will not even get into Nigeria, a nation riven with ethnic conflict, and so performing much worse than it ought to, when one sees the tremendous talent of its peoples, and its natural resource base.
I do not consider myself African, but American doesn't tell the whole story either. I once had a coworker from Cameroon, and you couldn't tell me that we had less in common than I do with some random white dude from Utah. Not a chance.

Also, many African immigrants are quick to point out how different they are from us, yet seem less able to realize how Westernized they themselves have become. I recall a time where I was served an "authentic" African dish...made with corn.
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Old 05-20-2016, 09:45 AM
 
339 posts, read 249,818 times
Reputation: 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
People can find all sorts of ways to connect. But naively believing that "we are all one" and then getting excited when some African cooks food like your great grandma did, doesn't change the fact.


Blacks of the Americas are a western people. When we engage Africans, we come with our western values and attitudes.


Most often Africans find it hilarious when we go into "pretend African" mode. Yes, an African OUTSIDE of Africa, might go into pretense mode, but get them when they are together and you will see.


AN indication of this was up to a generation ago when many Africans still carved scars on their faces to indicate ethnic identity. NONE of the militant Black Panthers did so, and would have recoiled with horror if some white person suggested that they should. To them that was too "Tarzan".


As to the building economically joke. Listen black Americans cannot even do this in Chicago, where the largest concentration of them exist, almost 1 million people.


I select Chicago instead of the more diverse NYC, because it means that even a people (most of whom had roots in the Deep South) cannot find commonality to trust each other, the way that other ethnic groups so, what hope is there for some villager from Nigeria to trust some kid from Compton?


In fact I can see the contact now. The Nigerian employing all the white stereotypes of the black kid from Compton, and that black kid employing all the white stereotypes of what an African is.


I will not even get into Nigeria, a nation riven with ethnic conflict, and so performing much worse than it ought to, when one sees the tremendous talent of its peoples, and its natural resource base.

Seems to me you've been around the wrong Africans lol. Honestly your hypothetical scenerios are plausible but doesn't nessarily look at the full spectrum. What about 2nd generation American born Africans who move back to the continent? Would they be too Westernized to invest in their areas to build economically? I don't think you give Black Americans enough credit.

Prior to desegregation there were thriving black communites all across the US, Atlanta, DC, Harlem, Black Wall Street in Tulsa and even Chicago's Southside which had one of the wealthiest black communites in the country. Unfortunately you had a thing called racism that stifled the growth of these communities where a Black Wall Street can be literally bombed by the US government to keep black progress from happening. This notion that blacks from either hemispheres being incapable of collaborating toogether due to petty differences is laughable to me.

There's a lot of us whom are proud of our ancestry and recognize our history didn't start with slavery. Look at any country in the western hemisphere and you can see vestiges of our African ancestry whether it be the US, Jamaica, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, Brazil etc.

Heck, the Pan African movement was started by a Jamaican and spread globally. I encourage you to explore the subject a bit more.

Last edited by jkc2j; 05-20-2016 at 10:24 AM..
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Old 05-20-2016, 01:30 PM
 
7,457 posts, read 5,984,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunion Powder View Post
I do not consider myself African, but American doesn't tell the whole story either. .


Which is why when some insist that blacks born in the USA are just "American", and to say otherwise is divisive, is just as dishonest as when folks go to the other extreme, where they paint a black man from a Cameroon village to be the same as a black man from Seattle.


Yes there are a variety of black cultures and identities in the Americas, Europe, and also in Africa. Yes there is some overlap, but to extend this to mean that there aren't also real differences is to be nave.


Hell blacks from the English speaking Caribbean had the same slave masters as those from the USA. In fact Washington had relatives in Barbados, and Jefferson was connected to people in St Kitts. Yet there exists real issues between these two groups of blacks.
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Old 05-20-2016, 01:54 PM
 
7,457 posts, read 5,984,753 times
Reputation: 3804
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j View Post
Seems to me you've been around the wrong Africans lol. Honestly your hypothetical scenerios are plausible but doesn't nessarily look at the full spectrum. What about 2nd generation American born Africans who move back to the continent? Would they be too Westernized to invest in their areas to build economically? I don't think you give Black Americans enough credit.

Prior to desegregation there were thriving black communites all across the US, Atlanta, DC, Harlem, Black Wall Street in Tulsa and even Chicago's Southside which had one of the wealthiest black communites in the country. Unfortunately you had a thing called racism that stifled the growth of these communities where a Black Wall Street can be literally bombed by the US government to keep black progress from happening. This notion that blacks from either hemispheres being incapable of collaborating toogether due to petty differences is laughable to me.

There's a lot of us whom are proud of our ancestry and recognize our history didn't start with slavery. Look at any country in the western hemisphere and you can see vestiges of our African ancestry whether it be the US, Jamaica, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, Brazil etc.

Heck, the Pan African movement was started by a Jamaican and spread globally. I encourage you to explore the subject a bit more.
OK I just got over laughing that you seriously think that Puerto Ricans/Dominicans value being black, and want any deep connection to Africa beyond the African elements within their cultures, which they will gladly tell you developed within the context of the multiracial identities that they use to negate any sense of being black.

Ok more mythologies. Are you now trying to tell me that prior to the civil rights movements blacks were better off? The KKK will love to hear this, and will quickly cite your comments to bring back the America of the 20s.


Those black communities were isolated communities where small groups did well. Yet we can see how one rumor of a rape led to their destruction, and those displaced weren't able to recreate those communities elsewhere. Jews were able to rebuild when their communities were destroyed, as they bind together against external forces in a way that we blacks don't.


Harlem in the 20s was a place where the vast majority of blacks were poor, and employment, even in the basest of jobs was tenuous. Even though a black elite existed, the bulk of the businesses and real estate were always in the hands of whites, usually Jews.


I will suggest the same for the southside of Chicago, which had some of the worst slums this side of Calcutta.


Today there exist many "wealthy" black communities, in the ATL, and DC suburbs. You don't acknowledge their existence because you know that this represents a minority of the overall black population today.


Well in the 20s, when over 80% of blacks were poor (now its less than 30%), and very few even had a high school education, those buildings in Harlem, filled with "wealthy doctors and lawyers" existed in a sea where most worked as domestics and porters, and that is IF they had a job. They didn't live in Harlem among its poverty stricken because they wanted to. They lived there because they had no choice, and the speed that they left, post WWII when communities opened up elsewhere, is evidence of this.


Now as to the Africans.


Yes the kid of an African will have to prove themselves on trips back to Africa, much as kids of immigrant heritage must do every where else in the world. Indian American kids are called ABCDs (American Born Confused Desi), so these Africans aren't unique. This is why immigrant parents, who can afford it, send their kids home during the summer.


In fact even their parents, on trips back home, have to make adjustments, and will encounter some skepticism.


What those Americans, with immediate African heritage have, that you lack, is an explicit knowledge of those cultures. They know how to maneuver and impress aunty that they aren't chocolate coated white men. Most likely they can speak the language.


Can you speak any African language? The fact that you think you can function as an African, with only an ability to speak a European language(s) is evidence of the bias that we western blacks have.


They also know the mores and values of the specific ethnic group that they are from? Do you know what your specific African ancestry is?


When an African asks you about your "tribe" what is your response? And if you don't know how important ethnic identity is among Africans, often more important than national identity, and definitely more important than being black, then you know NOTHING about being African.




Does it dawn on you that the Africans who you know, are in a pretense mode because they live in the USA, and want/need your friendship. Or if you are in Africa, they are either being good hosts, or merely wish something out of you?


Never judge what people say in front of your face. Figure out what they say behind your back.


Africans generally don't respect blacks of the Diaspora, and the ones which they reserve the most contempt for are black Americans? Why?

All of Africa would flee to the USA if a green card dropped in their lap. What they don't understand is why a group of blacks. with the good fortune of living in the USA, seem to have not taken advantage of it.

Now are these Africans correct in their views?

Maybe not, but it is the fact that they are African that leads them to despise the waste that they think that many black Americans are. They think the same of British blacks of Caribbean origin!

Last edited by caribny; 05-20-2016 at 02:03 PM..
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Old 05-20-2016, 02:53 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
5,286 posts, read 4,202,062 times
Reputation: 4350
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Which is why when some insist that blacks born in the USA are just "American", and to say otherwise is divisive, is just as dishonest as when folks go to the other extreme, where they paint a black man from a Cameroon village to be the same as a black man from Seattle.


Yes there are a variety of black cultures and identities in the Americas, Europe, and also in Africa. Yes there is some overlap, but to extend this to mean that there aren't also real differences is to be nave.
I don't remember saying that there were no differences.
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Old 05-20-2016, 02:59 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
5,286 posts, read 4,202,062 times
Reputation: 4350
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
OK I just got over laughing that you seriously think that Puerto Ricans/Dominicans value being black, and want any deep connection to Africa beyond the African elements within their cultures, which they will gladly tell you developed within the context of the multiracial identities that they use to negate any sense of being black.

Ok more mythologies. Are you now trying to tell me that prior to the civil rights movements blacks were better off? The KKK will love to hear this, and will quickly cite your comments to bring back the America of the 20s.


Those black communities were isolated communities where small groups did well. Yet we can see how one rumor of a rape led to their destruction, and those displaced weren't able to recreate those communities elsewhere. Jews were able to rebuild when their communities were destroyed, as they bind together against external forces in a way that we blacks don't.


Harlem in the 20s was a place where the vast majority of blacks were poor, and employment, even in the basest of jobs was tenuous. Even though a black elite existed, the bulk of the businesses and real estate were always in the hands of whites, usually Jews.


I will suggest the same for the southside of Chicago, which had some of the worst slums this side of Calcutta.


Today there exist many "wealthy" black communities, in the ATL, and DC suburbs. You don't acknowledge their existence because you know that this represents a minority of the overall black population today.


Well in the 20s, when over 80% of blacks were poor (now its less than 30%), and very few even had a high school education, those buildings in Harlem, filled with "wealthy doctors and lawyers" existed in a sea where most worked as domestics and porters, and that is IF they had a job. They didn't live in Harlem among its poverty stricken because they wanted to. They lived there because they had no choice, and the speed that they left, post WWII when communities opened up elsewhere, is evidence of this.


Now as to the Africans.


Yes the kid of an African will have to prove themselves on trips back to Africa, much as kids of immigrant heritage must do every where else in the world. Indian American kids are called ABCDs (American Born Confused Desi), so these Africans aren't unique. This is why immigrant parents, who can afford it, send their kids home during the summer.


In fact even their parents, on trips back home, have to make adjustments, and will encounter some skepticism.


What those Americans, with immediate African heritage have, that you lack, is an explicit knowledge of those cultures. They know how to maneuver and impress aunty that they aren't chocolate coated white men. Most likely they can speak the language.


Can you speak any African language? The fact that you think you can function as an African, with only an ability to speak a European language(s) is evidence of the bias that we western blacks have.


They also know the mores and values of the specific ethnic group that they are from? Do you know what your specific African ancestry is?


When an African asks you about your "tribe" what is your response? And if you don't know how important ethnic identity is among Africans, often more important than national identity, and definitely more important than being black, then you know NOTHING about being African.




Does it dawn on you that the Africans who you know, are in a pretense mode because they live in the USA, and want/need your friendship. Or if you are in Africa, they are either being good hosts, or merely wish something out of you?
Does that pretense include scarfing down Kit Kat bars and being a Travis Scott fan? I don't indulge in either, so it couldn't be for my benefit.


Quote:
Never judge what people say in front of your face. Figure out what they say behind your back.


Africans generally don't respect blacks of the Diaspora, and the ones which they reserve the most contempt for are black Americans? Why?

All of Africa would flee to the USA if a green card dropped in their lap. What they don't understand is why a group of blacks. with the good fortune of living in the USA, seem to have not taken advantage of it.

Now are these Africans correct in their views?

Maybe not, but it is the fact that they are African that leads them to despise the waste that they think that many black Americans are. They think the same of British blacks of Caribbean origin!
I don't respect anyone that doesn't respect me, so it all works out in the end.
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Old 05-20-2016, 03:13 PM
 
339 posts, read 249,818 times
Reputation: 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
OK I just got over laughing that you seriously think that Puerto Ricans/Dominicans value being black, and want any deep connection to Africa beyond the African elements within their cultures, which they will gladly tell you developed within the context of the multiracial identities that they use to negate any sense of being black.

Ok more mythologies. Are you now trying to tell me that prior to the civil rights movements blacks were better off? The KKK will love to hear this, and will quickly cite your comments to bring back the America of the 20s.


Those black communities were isolated communities where small groups did well. Yet we can see how one rumor of a rape led to their destruction, and those displaced weren't able to recreate those communities elsewhere. Jews were able to rebuild when their communities were destroyed, as they bind together against external forces in a way that we blacks don't.


Harlem in the 20s was a place where the vast majority of blacks were poor, and employment, even in the basest of jobs was tenuous. Even though a black elite existed, the bulk of the businesses and real estate were always in the hands of whites, usually Jews.


I will suggest the same for the southside of Chicago, which had some of the worst slums this side of Calcutta.


Today there exist many "wealthy" black communities, in the ATL, and DC suburbs. You don't acknowledge their existence because you know that this represents a minority of the overall black population today.


Well in the 20s, when over 80% of blacks were poor (now its less than 30%), and very few even had a high school education, those buildings in Harlem, filled with "wealthy doctors and lawyers" existed in a sea where most worked as domestics and porters, and that is IF they had a job. They didn't live in Harlem among its poverty stricken because they wanted to. They lived there because they had no choice, and the speed that they left, post WWII when communities opened up elsewhere, is evidence of this.


Now as to the Africans.


Yes the kid of an African will have to prove themselves on trips back to Africa, much as kids of immigrant heritage must do every where else in the world. Indian American kids are called ABCDs (American Born Confused Desi), so these Africans aren't unique. This is why immigrant parents, who can afford it, send their kids home during the summer.


In fact even their parents, on trips back home, have to make adjustments, and will encounter some skepticism.


What those Americans, with immediate African heritage have, that you lack, is an explicit knowledge of those cultures. They know how to maneuver and impress aunty that they aren't chocolate coated white men. Most likely they can speak the language.


Can you speak any African language? The fact that you think you can function as an African, with only an ability to speak a European language(s) is evidence of the bias that we western blacks have.


They also know the mores and values of the specific ethnic group that they are from? Do you know what your specific African ancestry is?


When an African asks you about your "tribe" what is your response? And if you don't know how important ethnic identity is among Africans, often more important than national identity, and definitely more important than being black, then you know NOTHING about being African.




Does it dawn on you that the Africans who you know, are in a pretense mode because they live in the USA, and want/need your friendship. Or if you are in Africa, they are either being good hosts, or merely wish something out of you?


Never judge what people say in front of your face. Figure out what they say behind your back.


Africans generally don't respect blacks of the Diaspora, and the ones which they reserve the most contempt for are black Americans? Why?

All of Africa would flee to the USA if a green card dropped in their lap. What they don't understand is why a group of blacks. with the good fortune of living in the USA, seem to have not taken advantage of it.

Now are these Africans correct in their views?

Maybe not, but it is the fact that they are African that leads them to despise the waste that they think that many black Americans are. They think the same of British blacks of Caribbean origin!







I think you missed my point about Dominicans and Puerto Ricans. I said that there were "vestiges" of African culture in these groups not that they were African. I'm well aware that some Puerto Ricans and Dominicans would mostly prefer not to identify with anything pertaining to Africa, which is kind of ironic that everything from the music they listen to the food they eat has a very prominent African influence.

Actually those areas I named were very prominent African American communities. Of course there was still poverty in some areas and some that were quite well to do by African American standards at the time. This was all accomplished in spite of systematic racism and oppression.

So you mean to tell me that 2nd generation Africans born in the western hemisphere have a leg up with building up their communities economically is because they aren't "chocolate covered white men"? What does that even mean? lol. We have two entirely different experiences when it comes to interacting with continental Africans. Whether or not they feel this way behind closed doors is another issue.

I think we're going around is circles. I've already stated my opinion on why I feel that knowing which specific tribe I belong to won't necessarily be a hindrance on building economic prosperity amongst others who look like me and whom I'm descended. From conversations I've had from Africans whom I know personally from Nigeria, South Africa and Ghana they have no issues collaborating to build economically in spite of the cultural differences. I believe it all boils down to our day to day experiences.

Where do you think their negative images of American blacks comes from? The western media does a great job projecting negative propagated images worldwide especially when it pertains to African Americans as ignorant, thugs and criminals through music, movies etc. The same could be said about how continental Africans are portrayed in the western hemisphere by the media, always as Africans being dirty, poor, and uneducated which is completely false. This in my opinion by design to prevent any form of collboration between the two groups. That's why I believe finding that cultural ground to initially come together is a great solution to that because you'll find more similarities often than not.

Last edited by jkc2j; 05-20-2016 at 04:37 PM..
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Old 05-20-2016, 04:08 PM
 
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Reputation: 648
If Africans look down on Black Americans and Black British for being a waste, are they exempting poor White Americans and poor White British?
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Old 05-23-2016, 06:36 PM
 
691 posts, read 925,766 times
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What I find interesting in all of this according to my experience is that I never see the Black American Afro-Centrist types at any of the Caribbean and African film festivals they show from time to time, it is usually very few blacks and mostly white
intellectuals at these events in my city.

One Yoruba business woman complained to me, they were having heritage days in our city and the day for Black Americans
different black groups were trying to organize including some Afro-Centrist type groups, So when the Nigerian woman offered
to help with some input, she said they told her she was "foreign" and would not understand. I told her if these people are so into Africa, you should be the FIRST person they would come to.


She ran a clothing shop, and she did presentations and educational seminars for different groups on Yoruba Culture and she
was from Yoruba royalty also.

So I think some Americans are into Africa only up to their comfort level and only go so far as music, dance and clothing.

We were conversing at her stall one day, and a Black American male came in and said "Keep talking, let me guess you are
Yoruba right?" He said he had studied at the University of Jos and learned the accents of the different ethnic groups, while at school. Some people have a surface knowledge of Africa.
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Old 05-25-2016, 12:30 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
5,286 posts, read 4,202,062 times
Reputation: 4350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agbor View Post
What I find interesting in all of this according to my experience is that I never see the Black American Afro-Centrist types at any of the Caribbean and African film festivals they show from time to time, it is usually very few blacks and mostly white
intellectuals at these events in my city.

One Yoruba business woman complained to me, they were having heritage days in our city and the day for Black Americans
different black groups were trying to organize including some Afro-Centrist type groups, So when the Nigerian woman offered
to help with some input, she said they told her she was "foreign" and would not understand. I told her if these people are so into Africa, you should be the FIRST person they would come to.


She ran a clothing shop, and she did presentations and educational seminars for different groups on Yoruba Culture and she
was from Yoruba royalty also.

So I think some Americans are into Africa only up to their comfort level and only go so far as music, dance and clothing.

We were conversing at her stall one day, and a Black American male came in and said "Keep talking, let me guess you are
Yoruba right?" He said he had studied at the University of Jos and learned the accents of the different ethnic groups, while at school. Some people have a surface knowledge of Africa.
Just as many have surface knowledge of Black Americans.

I've personally never heard any Black Americans dismiss an African as just a "foreigner". I would have taken her comments with a grain of salt.
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