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Old 05-31-2016, 12:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agbor View Post
If Africans look down on Black Americans and Black British for being a waste, are they exempting poor White Americans and poor White British?


Those they don't even bother with. The notice the black British and Americans because they will likely live among them.
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Old 05-31-2016, 12:31 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j View Post

So you mean to tell me that 2nd generation Africans born in the western hemisphere have a leg up with building up their communities economically is because they aren't "chocolate covered white men"? What does that even mean? lol. We have two entirely different experiences when it comes to interacting with continental Africans. Whether or not they feel this way behind closed doors is another issue.

I think we're going around is circles. I've already stated my opinion on why I feel that knowing which specific tribe I belong to won't necessarily be a hindrance on building economic prosperity amongst others who look like me and whom I'm descended. From conversations I've had from Africans whom I know personally from Nigeria, South Africa and Ghana they have no issues collaborating to build economically in spite of the cultural differences. I believe it all boils down to our day to day experiences.

Where do you think their negative images of American blacks comes from? .
Talking about being seen as a chocolate coated white man. Even in the Caribbean black American tourists are often viewed that way, so why not in Africa, where we are talking about deep seated linguistic, and cultural differences. Face it. Putting aside racism, you have more in common with a white American than you do with a black African.


Actually black immigrants often arrive in the USA with highly favorable images of blacks. Ebony is very popular in many of these nations. In fact some might argue that the skin lightening problem in Africa is often an attempt to look like the images which are shown in those magazines.


A black woman basically owns the real estate of NBCTV programming on a Thursday, and her programming features loads of powerful black women (less so powerful black men). In fact blacks are represented in US media in proportion to their population. And often as authority figures, such as judges. Blacks are seen on talk shows, and no longer confined to civil rights issues, and also in ads, and not just about house cleaning supplies either.


No the problem happens when they arrive in the USA, and then note that African Americans have as much difficulty in leveraging economic opportunity in the USA, where their families have lived for over 200 years, as some newly arrived college educated African. They see the ghettoes and they wonder what's wrong with those people.


Now Africa is not like the USA, with its well developed institutions and rule of law, and with institutional racism still a prominent feature. I add the latter in case some of our white cousins arrive babbling nonsense that any one who works hard can excel......we all know better than that.


Africa is based on networks. One of the powerful networks is ethnicity. If you don't know how powerful ethnic (tribal) identity is in most parts of Africa you seriously don't understand those nation. This isn't to say that people don't deal across the boundaries of ethnicity. It is to say that one better understand how these networks operate.


Now have you done business in Africa? I am not talking about some petty trading. I am talking about the type of activity which ensures that you can support yourself well, in addition to having employees in the USA, and in Africa itself.


Also sad to say, many Africans will sooner deal with a white man than they will with you, as they think that the white man has access to resources, whereas you just bring chatter about blacks having to love each other. In societies where every one is black, such chatter seems silly.
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Old 05-31-2016, 05:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Talking about being seen as a chocolate coated white man. Even in the Caribbean black American tourists are often viewed that way, so why not in Africa, where we are talking about deep seated linguistic, and cultural differences. Face it. Putting aside racism, you have more in common with a white American than you do with a black African.


Actually black immigrants often arrive in the USA with highly favorable images of blacks. Ebony is very popular in many of these nations. In fact some might argue that the skin lightening problem in Africa is often an attempt to look like the images which are shown in those magazines.


A black woman basically owns the real estate of NBCTV programming on a Thursday, and her programming features loads of powerful black women (less so powerful black men). In fact blacks are represented in US media in proportion to their population. And often as authority figures, such as judges. Blacks are seen on talk shows, and no longer confined to civil rights issues, and also in ads, and not just about house cleaning supplies either.


No the problem happens when they arrive in the USA, and then note that African Americans have as much difficulty in leveraging economic opportunity in the USA, where their families have lived for over 200 years, as some newly arrived college educated African. They see the ghettoes and they wonder what's wrong with those people.


Now Africa is not like the USA, with its well developed institutions and rule of law, and with institutional racism still a prominent feature. I add the latter in case some of our white cousins arrive babbling nonsense that any one who works hard can excel......we all know better than that.


Africa is based on networks. One of the powerful networks is ethnicity. If you don't know how powerful ethnic (tribal) identity is in most parts of Africa you seriously don't understand those nation. This isn't to say that people don't deal across the boundaries of ethnicity. It is to say that one better understand how these networks operate.


Now have you done business in Africa? I am not talking about some petty trading. I am talking about the type of activity which ensures that you can support yourself well, in addition to having employees in the USA, and in Africa itself.


Also sad to say, many Africans will sooner deal with a white man than they will with you, as they think that the white man has access to resources, whereas you just bring chatter about blacks having to love each other. In societies where every one is black, such chatter seems silly.

Again, I believe our experiences are totally different. I personally believe I would have more in common with someone from Nigeria than a white person from Iowa, though we live in the same country our cultural worldview couldn't be any more different. So I have to disagree with you on that.

You contradict yourself as well. On a previous post you said Africans don't have favorable opinions about Black Americans now you say they do because of access to Ebony magazine? Which is it?

I never said that tribalism wasn't a big part of African culture what I did say is that it shouldn't be something that prevents those on the continent and the diaspora to work together for a common goal, which is to build up economically not some love fest like you make it seem. Mutual respect yes, but the business of collaborative economics is what I'm speaking about.

Last edited by jkc2j; 05-31-2016 at 05:35 AM..
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Old 05-31-2016, 11:00 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j View Post
Again, I believe our experiences are totally different. I personally believe I would have more in common with someone from Nigeria than a white person from Iowa, though we live in the same country our cultural worldview couldn't be any more different. So I have to disagree with you on that.

You contradict yourself as well. On a previous post you said Africans don't have favorable opinions about Black Americans now you say they do because of access to Ebony magazine? Which is it?

I never said that tribalism wasn't a big part of African culture what I did say is that it shouldn't be something that prevents those on the continent and the diaspora to work together for a common goal, which is to build up economically not some love fest like you make it seem. Mutual respect yes, but the business of collaborative economics is what I'm speaking about.

I guess your credibility with me might increase if you can describe REAL multi million dollar business ventures that you have engaged in Africa. If you haven't, ask yourself why.



I said that the image AAs by Africans is favorable in Africa, but then many get shocked upon arrival, seeing the considerable problems and dysfunctional behavior of a segment of the black American population.


They then also realize that AAs are just as isolated from the power centers of the USA, than African immigrants are.


Africans (both those in Africa and immigrants to the USA) would love it if AAs owned large corporations and had strong influence over the global economic systems. They see Asian leveraging the growing economic power of Asian Americans. Indeed Asian Americans also leverage the growing economy power of Asia. They don't see African Americans having the same ability. They are also fully aware of the marginality of Africa.




But let is be perfectly frank.


Blacks (AAs, Caribbean, Latin Americans, Africans). do not have access to capital. We don't control the markets, or the technology. We are subordinates in economic systems which are dominated by white Americans, Europeans, and increasingly Asians.


So we can have a group hug and pretend that melanin binds us.


Problem with that is Africans (the ones with real power) are very pragmatic people. They see blacks all day in their countries, so don't attach anything special to blackness. And they want access to capital, technology, and markets.


AAs don't offer access to that.
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Old 05-31-2016, 01:12 PM
 
323 posts, read 242,273 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
I guess your credibility with me might increase if you can describe REAL multi million dollar business ventures that you have engaged in Africa. If you haven't, ask yourself why.



I said that the image AAs by Africans is favorable in Africa, but then many get shocked upon arrival, seeing the considerable problems and dysfunctional behavior of a segment of the black American population.


They then also realize that AAs are just as isolated from the power centers of the USA, than African immigrants are.


Africans (both those in Africa and immigrants to the USA) would love it if AAs owned large corporations and had strong influence over the global economic systems. They see Asian leveraging the growing economic power of Asian Americans. Indeed Asian Americans also leverage the growing economy power of Asia. They don't see African Americans having the same ability. They are also fully aware of the marginality of Africa.




But let is be perfectly frank.


Blacks (AAs, Caribbean, Latin Americans, Africans). do not have access to capital. We don't control the markets, or the technology. We are subordinates in economic systems which are dominated by white Americans, Europeans, and increasingly Asians.


So we can have a group hug and pretend that melanin binds us.


Problem with that is Africans (the ones with real power) are very pragmatic people. They see blacks all day in their countries, so don't attach anything special to blackness. And they want access to capital, technology, and markets.


AAs don't offer access to that.

No, your original statement about Africans disliking Black Americans was this.

"Africans generally don't respect blacks of the Diaspora, and the ones which they reserve the most contempt for are black Americans? Why?"

To which I responded speaking about Western media propaganda etc. Not sure how you went from Africans having contempt for Black Americans to we are viewed favorably by Africans due to things like Ebony magazine.

How do you suppose that Blacks across the globe build an economic power base without working together? How do you think Asian Americans, White Americans, Arabs etc. are able to gain a foot hold in the US economic order? Because they practice group economics. I can mainly speak from a US perspective, but as you may know, the economic and social order in this country is primarily based on race. From my observations Asians(no matter the ethnic background)tend to collaborate with other Asians, Europeans with other Europeans and so on. I'm not saying Pan Africanism is the final answer but it seems that every where on the planet, people who have my skin tone as a whole are at the bottom of the social and economic order. To me, cooperative economics makes the most sense.

Again, I don't know what your experiences have been with dealing with continental Africans but it sounds like it's been the complete opposite of mine. Mind you, I'm a recent college grad, so no I don't have any multi-million dollar business ventures in Africa. However, I can say from my conversations with Africans, first generation and second generation here in the US, that they are open to collaboration. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Last edited by jkc2j; 05-31-2016 at 01:37 PM..
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Old 05-31-2016, 02:21 PM
Status: "Nobody's right if everybody's wrong" (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
9,827 posts, read 21,130,434 times
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Europe Americans aren't bosom buddies with Europeans and there are many philosophical differences. But what you do have is mutually beneficial military agreements (NATO), trade deals, and cross tourism. That's what Africa needs with the African Diaspora that is doesn't currently have. The slave trade made it impossible for Blacks in the New World to even know where their ancestors came from, now with DNA that can be found out. West Africa could gain a lot of tourism from wealthy Black Americans who can now know where their ancestors lived. Europe gains a lot of genealogy tourism from White Americans who can now easily trace family trees, something that was only for the very wealthy until the internet.
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Old 06-04-2016, 02:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j View Post

I can mainly speak from a US perspective, .


You seem to be a bunch of theory and rhetoric. Do you actually own a business, or are you one of those dreamers? That rhetoric that you chat is so "1970", when we were waving fists in the air.


If in the 150 years since slavery ended black Americans haven't been able to practice this group economics, then why will they be able to do so with people who are radically different, and who live thousands of miles away?


Understand something. A Chinese American is usually one 1-3 generations separated from the people in China.


Black Americans experienced a far more radical separation, and this rupture has been in place for over 200 years. So you cannot compare Chinese Americans with black Americans.


Black Americans and Africans might as well be 2 different races. In fact few black Americans can be mistaken for an African.




Please indicate in what situation have you seen black Americans cooperate to build this utopian society that you describe.


Asians and others have business driven cultures. They know how to cooperate with each other. They aren't afraid to talk business. Blacks of the Diaspora are not like this. We will sooner support people from other groups than our own.


Why don't you chat with black business owners and ask them about the challenges that they face dealing with blacks? In fact I know several black property owners who are reluctant to deal with other blacks. And these include American black owners. The stuff that black tenants will bring to them they would never bring to a non black property owner.
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Old 06-04-2016, 02:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by censusdata View Post
That's what Africa needs with the African Diaspora that is doesn't currently have. .


Wealthy black Americans prefer Paris than Dakar. If they do Africa, it will be South Africa, with its safaris, and with an environment that is closer to what they are accustomed to in the USA. And where they can better insulate themselves from 3rd world backwardness.


I seriously don't see Oprah prancing around the streets of Liberia, where DNA analysis suggests that some of her ancestors came from. She will more do South Africa.


Oprah had an event to commemorate the movie Selma. All the wealthy Negroes were there quite happy that the waiters and other staff were whites.


So when folks babble about what wealthy blacks do, understand this. They want to show that they have arrived, and are mainstream, so aren't much more likely to be supportive of black business ventures than are whites.


And let us be honest. What does the black Diaspora have to offer Africa. We do not even have economic leverage within our own societies, much less have an ability to assist Africa to access markets, technology, or management expertise. Just look at what happens to cities in the USA when their populations become majority black. They cannot sustain, because they lack a tax base. This because there is insufficient business activity to generate tax revenues.


Let us get real here.
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Old 06-04-2016, 02:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j View Post
. Mind you, I'm a recent college grad, .


Yes. I thought so. Still at the stage of being an idealist instead of a realist.


Take it from some one who has had extensive dealings with black American, Caribbean, and African business owners.


That cooperative economics that you chatter about came about in the Black Power era. No evidence any where that its working.


To be frank with you SERIOUS African business people scoff at that nonsense. As do indeed serious black American business people. You will be shocked to know that many of these people seek alliances with the white mainstream, and those who are best at doing so are the most successful. Scratch a seriously wealthy black person, who made their money in the post Civil Rights era, and this isn't some one who got it from Cooperative Economics.
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Old 06-04-2016, 10:30 AM
 
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I have always viewed West Africans as distantly related BUT completely different people.
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