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Old 07-07-2016, 09:30 AM
 
338 posts, read 245,597 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
You still cannot explain why if those "black Wall Streets" were so pervasive and successful, why almost none of them remained in place by the dawn of the Civil Rights movement. In fact most were destroyed by jealous whites, and those so displaced, lacked the means to recreate these communities.


Please don't chat about the law firms of the pre Civil Rights era. The black owned law firms today are more numerous, and also more successful. There are more black lawyers today than at any other time. You need to get out a bit more.


The black banks have suffered the fate of small banks all over the USA. The few remaining only exist because of capital injected from mainstream entities.




Now let us look at the condition of those black businesses which DO invest within poor black communities.


Does the meager success of these entities provide incentive for others to follow? How will these upper middle class blacks attract the capital to build business, given the track record of failure among black business located in poor black communities with limited spending power? Where are the deep pockets of cash within the black community to provide risk capital?


The black entities which succeed, are those more thoroughly integrated into the US economic systems. Those less successful at this remain under capitalized and financially weak.



You do know that the child of an upper middle class black is more likely to fall into poverty, than similar kids of other groups. This largely because large numbers of them live in, or near to poor black communities, or therefore vulnerable to all of the external and internal factors which create these problem plagued neighborhoods. So why blame those blacks who think that being a good parent means sheltering their kids from this?

What are you talking about? Who said anything about there being more black law firms before the Civil Rights Era than today? That's irrelevant. The fact that you had Black owned business at all not long after slavery speaks volumes to the fortitude of Black people at that time.

You just answered your own question as to why Black Wall Street was never rebuilt in the manner it was before it burnt down. The message was clear. You build it and we'll burn it down. Why risk all the time, effort and resources if jealous whites are going to go as far as literally drop bombs from planes on what you've built.

Who said that Black owned businesses had to do business with Blacks only? If you were paying attention I specifically stated that we need them to invest in black communites as well as do business with other groups in order to grow. Might want to go back and read my posts.

An upper/middle class Black child is more likely to fall into poverty due to proximity to lower income blacks? That doesn't even make since. Where's your data to back up your claim?

Sounds to me you're the one that needs to get out more and actually interact with other Black Americans outside of your city.

Last edited by jkc2j; 07-07-2016 at 10:11 AM..
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Old 07-07-2016, 12:28 PM
 
15,489 posts, read 7,898,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFP View Post
I came across these videos which I found interesting the Dr. traced her roots to Cameroon through DNA and wants to reconnect the demeanor of the reporter in Cameroon during the interview I thinks speaks volumes, I think he views her as an American interloper. I don't think that most Africans view African-Americans as African. I actually felt bad for her during the interviews she seems like a nice lady and he behaved like an ass in my opinion.

I have noticed that some African-Americans want to reconnect with their African roots but I don't believe the feeling is mutual with Africans. What do you think? I really think most Africans would prefer African-Americans stay out of Africa.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57S69g0Rb5k





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrVD2u_o8qU
Interesting thread to begin with. I will state that I am a black American. I do not consider myself to be African because culturally I am American and my forebearers have been in America for hundreds of years. I have very view cultural connections with Africa and on the whole I would expect any African in any country to view me as an "outsider" just as I view them here as a foreigner.

I think too often black people in America buy into the idea that we are "culture less" and therefore they attempt to adopt an African culture based on their DNA. I understand their desire, but due to me being a student of black history, I am very aware of and proud of my culture as a black American and am knowledgeable about the fact that I have a rich, beautiful culture here in America.

However, I would like to visit a few countries in Africa one day as a tourist and I may get over my paranoia at doing a genetic DNA test and try to drill down where my African ancestry comes from. Via research I do know that I am also part European, primarily Scottish, British, and Irish as well and recently found out I may have a long ago native American ancestry (from the late 1600s/early1700s). Honestly due to my research, I think I may have more European ancestry than African, but I do consider myself a black American and culturally black in America.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j View Post
What are you talking about? Who said anything about there being more black law firms before the Civil Rights Era than today? That's irrelevant. The fact that you had Black owned business at all not long after slavery speaks volumes to the fortitude of Black people at that time.

You just answered your own question as to why Black Wall Street was never rebuilt in the manner it was before it burnt down. The message was clear. You build it and we'll burn it down. Why risk all the time, effort and resources if jealous whites are going to go as far as literally drop bombs from planes on what you've built.

Who said that Black owned businesses had to do business with Blacks only? If you were paying attention I specifically stated that we need them to invest in black communites as well as do business with other groups in order to grow. Might want to go back and read my posts.

An upper/middle class Black child is more likely to fall into poverty due to proximity to lower income blacks? That doesn't even make since. Where's your data to back up your claim?

Sounds to me you're the one that needs to get out more and actually interact with other Black Americans outside of your city.
Just wanted to mention that the Black Wall Street in Tulsa actually was rebuilt after it was burned down by whites. Also that it was similar to many black commercial districts in all American cities with decent sized black populations. All of those commercial districts fell to the wayside due to both integration, whereas black people were allowed to leave the "old neighborhood" after the end of housing discrimination (this primarily occurred in the 1970s/early 1980s in most urban areas) and "urban revitalization" whereas black neighborhoods and especially the commercial districts were razed or re-purposed for some other need of the city, state or federal government. Many interstates went through black neighborhoods. The neighborhood my great grandmother grew up in was bulldozed and turned into public buildings. Another portion of that neighborhood was turned into public housing. This occurred regularly across the country between the 1930s through the 1980s in black neighborhoods.

And I also will state in regards to Caribny asking why did middle class blacks leave if their neighborhoods were so great, that I do a lot of research of urban black areas with a concentration on the Midwest/Great Lakes region and that those neighborhoods actually weren't all that great. They had sub par housing compared to white neighborhoods and they many times received less city services like trash collection. Many also did not have decent plumbing/electrical systems and due to the poor condition of the neighborhoods, that is why the black middle and working classes started to move out when they were able. Also I will note that it is true that 70-75% of black Americans are considered "middle class." Middle class depends on the area where you live. I live in an area where if I only made $34,000 a year, I'd be considered middle class. I actually am considered "upper middle class" where I live since we make more than double that as a family.
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Old 07-08-2016, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Katy,Texas
3,507 posts, read 1,706,241 times
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I have a greater affinity towards black Americans but it isn't by much. The greatest affinity is towards other immigrants regardless of country.
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Old 07-09-2016, 10:25 AM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,939,607 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
And I also will state in regards to Caribny asking why did middle class blacks leave if their neighborhoods were so great, that I do a lot of research of urban black areas with a concentration on the Midwest/Great Lakes region and that those neighborhoods actually weren't all that great..

Let me start here. 25-30% of blacks are poor. That doesn't mean that the rest are middle class, unless one suggests that to be middle class one must simply not be poor. And its this fallacy that has all of the white working class in a start of outrage, as they were told all of these years that they are middle class, and now discover that they are merely working class.


Its this fallacy which has led to the notion that poverty in the USA is because of individual dysfunction, and that if one gets a job and gets married all is well.



Blacks are no different to any other group. As people achieve upward mobility they want a better quality of life, and the ability to secure better opportunities for their kids. Public schools in inner city areas are horrendous and are in fact often training grounds for criminals. 1/3 black men will be incarcerated at some point in their lives. Almost 50% will have weak attachment to the labor force, either as employees or self employed people. Large numbers will leave these public schools with poor literacy or numeracy skills.


The reality is that upwardly mobile blacks wish to allow their children more options than those available to the under class, or to working class blacks.


So they leave these communities.


And again I raise this point. If blacks in the South had a viable and sustainable economic system then why did so many leave the South? In 1900 90% of blacks lived in the South. By 1960 fewer than 50% did.


The conditions that those who left found in the North and out West were horrendous, with bigotry sanctioned by custom every bit as violent as that sanctioned by law in the South. The ghettoes of Chicago and other places were horrendous, and racial violence directed towards blacks, as well as blatant exclusion of blacks from all but the worst jobs.


So the South must have been even worse for one of the largest internal migrations on this planet to have occurred between 1900-1970. Why would these people have left to arrive in problem plagued communities, where their humanity wasn't respected if there were viable economic institutions that could have sustained blacks in the South?


The reality is that in the South most blacks worked for whites. Most blacks were intimidated by whites because they economically depended on them, which is why it took so long for mass movements against Jim Crow to emerge in the South.


The black businesses which did exist, weren't numerous enough, or vibrant enough to economically transform the black population. All it did was to sustain a small and highly vulnerable black business elite, who themselves were highly vulnerable to attacks from the dominant white community. The vast majority of blacks remained poor, and dependent on whites for employment. It was only a few isolated communities where this wasn't the case.


So we really need to set aside the myth that pre Civil Rights blacks were economically self sustaining and that this all ended with integration. Its amazing how a racist will use that dogma to justify excluding blacks from employment or economic opportunities.
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Old 07-09-2016, 10:26 AM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,939,607 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NigerianNightmare View Post
I have a greater affinity towards black Americans but it isn't by much. The greatest affinity is towards other immigrants regardless of country.


That seems to be a typical point of view. Though I wonder if you really identify closely with East Asian immigrants, who don't seem interested in interactions with blacks, regardless as to whether they are immigrant or native.
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Old 07-09-2016, 10:44 AM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,939,607 times
Reputation: 3799
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j View Post
What are you talking about? Who said anything about there being more black law firms before the Civil Rights Era than today? That's irrelevant. The fact that you had Black owned business at all not long after slavery speaks volumes to the fortitude of Black people at that time.

You just answered your own question as to why Black Wall Street was never rebuilt in the manner it was before it burnt down. The message was clear. You build it and we'll burn it down. Why risk all the time, effort and resources if jealous whites are going to go as far as literally drop bombs from planes on what you've built.

Who said that Black owned businesses had to do business with Blacks only? If you were paying attention I specifically stated that we need them to invest in black communites as well as do business with other groups in order to grow. Might want to go back and read my posts.

An upper/middle class Black child is more likely to fall into poverty due to proximity to lower income blacks? That doesn't even make since. Where's your data to back up your claim?

Sounds to me you're the one that needs to get out more and actually interact with other Black Americans outside of your city.
If blacks in the South had a viable and self sustaining economy, they would have stayed and fought against the racists, rather than fleeing to the North, where many ended up in rat infested ghettoes, doing the worst jobs. Clearly this wasn't the case, so almost 50% of the blacks living in the South fled!




Here is a reality. Only 10% of black households earn more than $100k. Even in these households net worth is relatively low. Many of these families have to support less well off relatives (often parents or siblings), in addition to all of the other obligations.


These are usually the first generation to achieve this success, so they didn't inherit assets, as do other groups (the exclusion of blacks from the GI Bill has been well documented, in addition to its impact on the lack of black wealth accumulation). When they get into trouble and have to sell their homes, the price they get is often lower, as the pool of blacks able to afford these homes is smaller, and non blacks don't want to live around blacks, even when they are doctors and lawyers.


On top of this upwardly mobile blacks are disproportionately concentrated in the public sector, so aren't acquiring the tools or connections that will enable them to develop self sustaining economic systems.


So who are these blacks who must invest in the black community? Half of those entertainers and athletes aren't as wealthy as you think because their managers ripped them off. Sorry even Oprah isn't rich enough to support the 40 million of us.


When you fly they tell passengers to secure themselves, in the event of an emergency, before they attempt to secure others. This is the plight of the black upper middle class. First in the families to achieve this, so no buffers. Especially vulnerable to job loss, or serious decline in earnings during recessions. Still having to struggle to secure their own economic position, and that of their extended families.


Please tell me where is the cash for these people to invest in businesses, most of which will fail within 5 years. Black business failure rates are much higher than those of other groups. In addition when a black business owner loses his investment, when this happens, his/her ability to start another business is quite remote.


So get real and stop dreaming pie in the sky. Yes blacks SHOULD develop stronger business networks, so that our businesses are successful. We should seek out quality businesses to support, in order to assist these businesses to succeed. But to suggest that the solution to black problems is some notion that "blacks must invest" is quite simple thinking, given that even supposedly affluent blacks lack the risk capital to do so.


Ask most black (and Asian) small business owners what they want for their kids, and they will tell you an Ivy League degree and a good job in a major corporation.
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Old 07-09-2016, 10:53 AM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,939,607 times
Reputation: 3799
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j View Post
An upper/middle class Black child is more likely to fall into poverty due to proximity to lower income blacks? That doesn't even make since. Where's your data to back up your claim?

.
1. Upper middle class blacks are more likely to live in close proximity to less well off people than is true for other groups. We still remain highly segregated.


2. With poverty comes pathologies, poor services and lack of opportunity. White kids are much less exposed to this.


3. With exposure to kids from dysfunctional families comes higher chances of mixing with "bad company".


4. Schools with high levels of poor kids tend to be poor performing, which hurts the chances of even the brightest kids from getting the educational opportunities to sustain their upward mobility.




Seriously this problem has been well documented, so I am surprised that you are unaware of this.




How Black Middle-Class Kids Become Poor Adults - The Atlantic
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Old 07-09-2016, 06:06 PM
AFP AFP started this thread
 
6,898 posts, read 4,245,951 times
Reputation: 5878
Quote:
Originally Posted by NigerianNightmare View Post
I have a greater affinity towards black Americans but it isn't by much. The greatest affinity is towards other immigrants regardless of country.
Thanks for you're honesty I have quite a bit of affinity for the children of immigrants who within one generation improve themselves educationally and economically from working class to middle class or higher regardless of race.
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Old 07-18-2016, 01:00 PM
 
338 posts, read 245,597 times
Reputation: 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
If blacks in the South had a viable and self sustaining economy, they would have stayed and fought against the racists, rather than fleeing to the North, where many ended up in rat infested ghettoes, doing the worst jobs. Clearly this wasn't the case, so almost 50% of the blacks living in the South fled!




Here is a reality. Only 10% of black households earn more than $100k. Even in these households net worth is relatively low. Many of these families have to support less well off relatives (often parents or siblings), in addition to all of the other obligations.


These are usually the first generation to achieve this success, so they didn't inherit assets, as do other groups (the exclusion of blacks from the GI Bill has been well documented, in addition to its impact on the lack of black wealth accumulation). When they get into trouble and have to sell their homes, the price they get is often lower, as the pool of blacks able to afford these homes is smaller, and non blacks don't want to live around blacks, even when they are doctors and lawyers.


On top of this upwardly mobile blacks are disproportionately concentrated in the public sector, so aren't acquiring the tools or connections that will enable them to develop self sustaining economic systems.


So who are these blacks who must invest in the black community? Half of those entertainers and athletes aren't as wealthy as you think because their managers ripped them off. Sorry even Oprah isn't rich enough to support the 40 million of us.


When you fly they tell passengers to secure themselves, in the event of an emergency, before they attempt to secure others. This is the plight of the black upper middle class. First in the families to achieve this, so no buffers. Especially vulnerable to job loss, or serious decline in earnings during recessions. Still having to struggle to secure their own economic position, and that of their extended families.


Please tell me where is the cash for these people to invest in businesses, most of which will fail within 5 years. Black business failure rates are much higher than those of other groups. In addition when a black business owner loses his investment, when this happens, his/her ability to start another business is quite remote.


So get real and stop dreaming pie in the sky. Yes blacks SHOULD develop stronger business networks, so that our businesses are successful. We should seek out quality businesses to support, in order to assist these businesses to succeed. But to suggest that the solution to black problems is some notion that "blacks must invest" is quite simple thinking, given that even supposedly affluent blacks lack the risk capital to do so.


Ask most black (and Asian) small business owners what they want for their kids, and they will tell you an Ivy League degree and a good job in a major corporation.

You keep regurgitating the same talking points. Of course you didn't have a majority of blacks whom were financially well off or successful during the early 20th century. You had some that were. What's your point? Today there are more wealthy blacks in this country than there has been in it's history. The question is why not invest our capital and resources in our own communities? I have yet to hear a valid argument from you as to why not. No one said that Black business owners needed to do business specifically with Blacks only. You go off on long tangents without focusing on my main point. The benefits of investing in our communities means we create an economy that's not solely reliant on other groups to be successful. With a spending power of 1.2 trillion dollars there's not a reason that this can't happen.
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Old 07-18-2016, 11:08 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,939,607 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j View Post
You keep regurgitating the same talking points. .


Because you keep making the same point, and not even expanding on it.


Blacks do not have an economy which allows them to invest in each other. So unless you have ideas as to how this economy will be developed what you seek will not happen.


Telling upper middle class blacks that they must invest what they don't have, when their financial situation is quite vulnerable makes no sense. There aren't enough black athletes to make a difference either, so don't even go there.
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