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Old 12-29-2015, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by littlemissrock View Post
Technically, black Africans sold other Africans as commodity,so I don't think Africans ever gave a damn about Africans in North America, not from the beginning. Pan Africanism is very much a product of the African American inferiority complex. Africa is a large diverse place, the concept of Pan Africanism is ridiculous.

I spent some time in the US as a child and after I moved back to my native country I was still accepted, I got lectures everyday reminding me that I was not American. I really don't know about Africans, perhaps they don't think blood is important.
This entire thread has gone so afar that I don't know where or not it is worth the effort....

Who sold who into slavery in irrelevant, immaterial and of no consequence to the idea, the concept of Pan-Africanism. Africa is a large and diverse place, but it is united by a common historical experience of European exploitation and oppression. The same exploitation and oppression experienced by people of African descent throughout the diaspora. That experience provides the basis of Pan-Africanism and the Pan-African movement in the post colonial Africa and the struggle for people of African descent in the Americas. Whether the average African accepts Africans of the Americas is a symptom of the exploitation and oppression experienced by African people on the continent and the Americas who choose not to see their commonality. This is particularly true of African Americans who have been taught to distance themselves from their African roots and deny their heritage. Pan-Africanism was born to combat that mentality and to unite people of African descent to recognize the the struggles for independence on the continent was interwoven with the struggles of African's in America to achieve their full rights as humans.

Speaking at a conference in Indonesia Malcolm X stated:
Until 1959, the image of the African continent was created by the enemies of Africa. Africa was a land dominated by outside powers. A land dominated by Europeans. And as these Europeans dominated the continent of Africa, it was they who created the image of Africa that was projected abroad. And they projected Africa and the people of Africa in a negative image, a hateful image.

They made us think that Africa was a land of jungles, a land of animals, a land of cannibals and savages. It was a hateful image.

And because they were so successful in projecting this negative image of Africa, those of us here in the West of African ancestry, the Afro-American, we looked upon Africa as a hateful place. We looked upon the African as the hateful person. And if you referred to us as an African it was like putting us as a servant, or playing house, or talking about us in the way we didn't want to be talked.

Why? Because those who oppress know that you can't make a person hate the root without making them hate the tree. You can't hate your own and not end up hating yourself. And since we all originated in Africa, you can't make us hate Africa without making us hate ourselves. And they did this very skillfully.

And what was the result? They ended up with 22 million Black people here in America who hated everything about us that was African. .. We hated the African characteristics. We hated our hair... We hated our nose, the shape of our nose, and the shape of our lips, the color of our skin. Yes we did. And it was you who taught us to hate ourselves simply by shrewdly maneuvering us into hating the land of our forefathers and the people on that continent.

As long as we hated those people, we hated ourselves. As long as we hated what we thought they looked like, we hated what we actually looked like. And you call me a hate teacher. Why, you taught us to hate ourselves. You taught the world to hate a whole race of people and have the audacity now to blame us for hating you simply because we don't like the rope that you put around our necks.

When you teach a man to hate his lips, the lips that God gave him, the shape of the nose that God gave him, the texture of the hair that God gave him, the color of the skin that God gave him, you've committed the worst crime that a race of people can commit. And this is the crime that you've committed.

Our color became a chain, a psychological chain. Our blood -- African blood -- became a psychological chain, a prison, because we were ashamed of it. We believe -- they would tell it to your face, and say they weren't; they were! We felt trapped because our skin was black. We felt trapped because we had African blood in our veins.

This is how you imprisoned us. Not just bringing us over here and making us slaves. But the image that you created of our motherland and the image that you created of our people on that continent was a trap, was a prison, was a chain, was the worst form of slavery that has ever been invented by a so-called civilized race and a civilized nation since the beginning of the world.

You still see the result of it among our people in this country today. Because we hated our African blood, we felt inadequate, we felt inferior, we felt helpless. And in our state of helplessness, we wouldn't work for ourselves. We turned to you for help, and then you wouldn't help us. We didn't feel adequate. We turned to your for advice and you gave us the wrong advice. Turned to you for direction and you kept us going in circles.
It was only as a result of rise of a Pan-African mentality that black folks, African Americans put forth the black power movement, brothers and sisters discovered their African roots, formed African folks dance companies, learned to play the rhythms of the drum that they inherent knew, we put down the Concaline and let our hair grow as it was created to grow. Some chose like W.E.B Dubois and Kwame Turé, nee Stokley Carmichael to follow in the steps of Marcus Garvey and return to Africa, today many African Americans have turned to Africa to help develop Africa's economy and by doing so, bring prosperity to African Americans at home. For thousands of children of the diaspora Pan-African is a spiritual awakening. And nothing about is fictional or ridiculous.

Unfortunately, the spirit of Pan-Africanism is still lost amongst on both sides of the Atlantic as the vestiges of European racism remains pervasive. In the Dominican Republic, descendants of Africa deny any connection to the continent in fear of being associated with Haitian, African immigrants who disassociate themselves with their American kin do so, in order can appear to be a different kind of negro. African Americans, don't call me African, Black folks, who see little value in Africa or deny their own African culture for reasons that Malcolm clearly pointed out. Does that make the spirit of Pan-Africanism ridiculous, no more than the argument and counter argument (usually fostered by white people) as to who sold whom into slavery.
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Old 12-30-2015, 08:51 AM
AFP AFP started this thread
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Originally Posted by SuperiorMegaman View Post
Wise Wino: Thank you for your informative and wise post.

You keep on, don't you:

I'm not saying that Africans are innocent or blameless in respect to slavery. Europeans controlled the slave trade, thus it was always up to them to end it. Of course many African nations would have continued the slave trade--their economies relied on it. In fact, slave trading nations in Africa protested when the trade ended. That doesn't make the slave trade any less evil or cruel. There are some Jews who actually supported Hitler during the holocaust--does that make the holocaust any less cruel or evil?
Not exactly it was a triangular trade system but you are getting more reasonable.

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Old 12-31-2015, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by xander.XVII View Post
), thus to pretend that you can just lump everything together and live happily after is dumb.
Fourthly, North Africa has little to nothing in common with "Sub-Saharian" Africa (and they don't see their Southern neighbours that well, not at all), hence there's another big divide.

Does a Latvian have anything in common with a Portuguese, and yet the EU exists.

No worries about sub Saharan Africa begging for North Africa to join them. The antipathy is mutual.

What is delusional about Pan Africanism is the notion that all blacks on the planet share common cause. Those who live in the Middle East and Latin America often don't even want to be considered black.
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Old 12-31-2015, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by TheWiseWino View Post
I know a hell of a lot of Jamaicans, Bajans, and Trinidadians, and I have never them lambasted by anyone (not that any black born American would dare to do so) nor have I ever met a Jamaican, a Bajan, or a Trinidadian who doesn't identify as being a black American and a Jamaican, Bajan or Trinidadian as they feel appropriate.


If some one who was born in the Caribbean, and who arrived as an adult, tells you that they think that they are black American, they are only fooling you. They are fully aware that many black Americans seem to think that they, and that they alone define what "blackness" is, and don't feel like an argument.

In fact it becomes amusing when an African American arrives in the UK and starts talking about African American, instead of black British.

Cooperating with black Americans, as we face the same problems, is a far cry from identifying as a black American.

Maybe you refer to US born people of Caribbean heritage, or those who arrived as young kids. Clearly their attitudes will differ from their parents. In fact they even be derisively dismissed as "Yankee".

Hell Jamaicans and Barbadians can barely tolerate each other, much less totally identifying with people whose history is different.
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Old 12-31-2015, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by SuperiorMegaman View Post
It would be nonsense to someone who grew up in a privileged world like you.

I'm not saying that they don't share a blame. The bulk of the blame, however goes to the west. They destroyed the economies and populations of some countries with the slave trade (Which was able to go on for as long as it did because of Europe's control over the flow of guns. Before you say that "Africans sold their own people," most Africans actually resisted the slave trade, those that did sell slaves were actually selling prisoners of war and criminals--ie, NOT THEIR OWN PEOPLE). After the slave era, They carved up the continent for themselves like a big birthday cake--without any consideration for tribes and people living there. During the colonial era, they were seen as subhuman and could be killed, raped and tortured with impunity. A lot of white folks like to say that "Africa was better off under colonialism." Better for whom exactly?

BOTH the African sellers and the European buyers are EQUALLY to blame for slavery. BOTH were motivated by GREED! NEITHER respected the humanity of those who they enslaved.

Reality is that you know NOTHING of West African history. The various Akan, Dahomey/Fon and Yoruba empires/kingdoms were too powerful to allow a vessel with a few score ailing and drunkard sailors dominate them.

The Europeans were confined to the forts. They were not allowed to move beyond the forts, and the fact that Europeans were 100% dependent on these African kingdoms and empires to procure the slaves meant that this was a relationship of mutual interest!

Think of this, the regions between Senegal and Ivory Coast would have been more convenient to source slaves, as they were closer to the Caribbean, which was the second largest destination for these enslaved peoples, after Brazil. Yet this region supplied a mere 15% of the slaves.

Why did this region supply fewer than the more remote points further east?

Because the empires further to the east (Ghana to Cameroon) had economies built on slavery, whereas the regions between Senegal to Ivory Coast were more ambivalent.

It was the AFRICANS who chose what their involvement in the slave trade would be. NOT the Europeans.
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Old 12-31-2015, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by TheWiseWino View Post
Unfortunately, the spirit of Pan-Africanism is still lost amongst on both sides of the Atlantic as the vestiges of European racism remains pervasive. 3


That is because its time has past. The days of extreme self hatred are over. The problems if North American and European blacks, finding themselves marginalized within powerful nations, are radically different from blacks living in Niger, where they don't even have an economy. And where slavery STILL EXISTS!

And just to illustrate this, I will recount a conversation between a Ghanaian taxi driver and an African American tourist who had just seen the infamous slave forts.

The black American was talking about the tragedy of the slave trade. The Ghanaian taxi driver expressed the view that while this was tragic he wishes his ancestors were enslaved as blacks in both North America and the Caribbean are now better off than those who remained in Africa.

You got to see where both are coming from, and why there was probably silence after that, with both the tourist and the taxi driver being totally confused.

Imagine a Ghanaian who sees lengthy lines outside of the US Consulate as people battle to get a visa, looking at a relatively well off American (who happens to be black) with his US passport, about to board a flight to NYC. Talk of events from 200 years ago seem irrelevant.

But imagine the black American who feels insulted by an African who glibly ignores the struggles that black Americans have had to wage, and in fact CONTINUE to wage.

See why Pan Africanism is delusional?
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Old 01-02-2016, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by SuperiorMegaman View Post
Actually there is a movement in some Latin American countries to count Afro-descended groups in the census. Mexico, for instance, and in Brazil, there is a movement to classify mixed people as black.


Listen they don't even have the ability to determine who is and who isn't black. In Brazil they use Pardo as less than 10% of the population self identifies as "preto".

Pardo include many who don't have any significant African ancestry. Many would be better categorized as being of mixed Amerindian ancestry. All it means is that they don't self identify as white.

So no one knows how many "blacks" live in Latin America, as being "black" is still seen as a stigma by most.

Even those who might admit to being "preto" don't necessarily have the level of "black consciousness" that you would expect. For many its no different from calling some one blonde in the USA.

Brazil does NOT have the largest black identified population in the Americas. That distinction goes to the USA.
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Old 01-02-2016, 01:51 AM
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The notion that there can be one catch all ideology of Pan Africanism is a waste, given the tremendous diverse ways that people who have varying degrees of African ancestry self identify, or perceive themselves to be an ethnic group.

In addition the priorities of blacks living in majority black societies will be different from those where blacks are marginalized minorities. I gave the example of the Ghanaian taxi driver, and the African America tourists. The priorities of racial identity are quite different, and both can cite very valid reasons to defend their views.

I can well imagine a black African, living under a brutal regime, will have a tough time, if some one tells him the white man is the "enemy".
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Old 01-02-2016, 03:47 AM
Location: The Borderlands
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All "civilized nations" participated in slavery. Anywhere where a monetary system exists, so does slavery. Any time someone has something that someone else wants, there's been oppression. There's been taking; there's been violence. It wasn't an American thing first but it will continue to be a problem if you keep letting it be a problem for you. I firmly believe no gov't wants people to get along.

This is why you need to stay where you are and fix what you have because if racism isn't going anywhere and goodness knows no one is pulling down any borders or boundaries; I think that your cultural and national identity is your best best for the future. Stop separating yourself as black and maybe there's a chance it won't take another 400 years to stop feeling so bad about being black in America. Same goes for all the people of the world and it's not because I'm a jerk, I like diversity. I like ethnic neighborhoods and restaurants and music and the best way to make sure the culture doesn't die is to keep it alive and intact. The Asians do it. Look at the Native American culture, I bet there aren't 1000 people who speak Cherokee fluently left in the world and that's just miserable.

Pan-Africanism is going to leave a lot of people feeling empty. I researched my family tree for 20 years and we have been American since before it was America. Once I got to Europe it was so dull and old I figured it didn't matter anymore. I'm not related to anyone famous, I'm as poor now as my great-great-great-great-great grandmother in Tennessee was on the farm. I can trace one side back to France in about 1600, whoopie. I'm not getting any 14 times removed French cousins inviting me to vacation abroad. The notion is insane.

I know it's not easy to research too far back when you're AA but it's not impossible. I can't believe a black person in this country would actually take the advice of a racist and actually go back to Africa. At least without following a direct line of heredity from their family tree. Africa is a continent, comprised of nations, containing, kingdoms, tribes and families. The scope is just way to broad to say "I'm American-Cameroon".
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Old 01-05-2016, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by AFP View Post
The Atlantic slave trade was terrible absolutely however had history been different there are millions upon millions of people that would not be alive today. Many individuals are a product of that history even if you only had one African ancestor 500-600 years ago and you're Caucasian or if you're African-American and 20% of your DNA is European.
This is misinformation. How can millions upon millions of people would not be alive today if history was different, when there were millions upon millions of people who lost their lives as a result of the Trans-Atlantic? And not all African-Americans have 20% European DNA! There's a lot of African-Americans who have far less than that. An African-American having 20% European DNA is not a good thing neither and I dont mean that in a racist way, but its how they got that 20%!
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