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Old 08-29-2016, 05:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
1. Where in Nubia can the images of these deities be found and have been shown to be dated before the development of Egypt?

2. What about the linguistic differences between the Egyptian and Nubian languages? The Egyptians spoke an Afro-Asiatic language while the Nubians spoke an Nilo-Saharan language. If their languages belonged to different linguistic families then how related can they be to each other?
Tuaregs also speak an Afro Asiatic language, yet clearly over time they have mixed with groups among which they live.


I can well imagine that the ancient Egyptians would have been a mixed group, and in fact their art seems indicative of this. I suspect that modern day DR or Brazil is quite indicative of what ancient Egypt might have been.


Those who pretend that Egypt was Uganda, or Greece are both being ridiculous.
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Old 08-29-2016, 08:36 PM
 
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I remember an Egyptian mural showing tribute from different nations: The Hittites, Libyans were white, Canaanites were olive
complexion, Nubians were black and the Egyptians ranged from almost as dark as the Nubians to light brown..

There was a movie out called Stargate, it was a Sci Fi movie about the ancient Egyptian gods being actual aliens..The cast for
the Egyptians (it was shot in Morrocco) was made up of North Africans, Black Africans, Black Americans and bi racial people.
which was more realistic than some of the earlier American movies with ancient Egyptian themes.
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Old 09-02-2016, 11:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agbor View Post
I remember an Egyptian mural showing tribute from different nations: The Hittites, Libyans were white, Canaanites were olive
complexion, Nubians were black and the Egyptians ranged from almost as dark as the Nubians to light brown..

.


There is a Eurocentric narrative which centers all human civilization based on Europe, so suddenly Egypt is projected as an off shoot of Greece, with Nubia made to be a far off land.


Given that Egypt lies between southwest Asia and northeast Africa it is obvious the Egyptians, both ancient and modern, would be a diverse peoples with a broad range of phenotypes.


So those who deny that SOME Egyptians were what an American or a modern European would characterize as "black" really waste their time.
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Old 09-10-2016, 10:35 PM
 
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As there is more archaeology done in Nubia, an emerging theory is that the origin of Egyptian civilization may have originated in Nubia, and went North as opposed to the older theory that Egyptian civilization started North and went South
with Nubia being "Egypt-lite"...The new idea is that Nubia was a civilization in its own right, not a watered down imitation of
Egypt.
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Old 09-10-2016, 10:56 PM
 
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There was also overlap in that I think I saw an Egyptian artifact of a ship with Egyptian and Nubian archers serving on it, and
it is a documented historical fact that the 25th Dynasty of Egypt was Nubian....When we examine ancient Egypt, which IS in
Africa we have to be careful to AVOID PROJECTING AMERICAN RACIAL IDENTITIES on ancient non-western peoples and developing conspiracy theories to re write history. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle. Egypt was a civilization most
likely composed of African and Near Eastern elements..

I don't think you can make a direct line from Africa to Europe. Greece evolved by itself, there was probably trade between
Egypt and Greece, Rome developed by itself..In the Mediterranean area different civilizations developed due to it being a
high trade area Crete, Greece, Rome,Egypt, Nubia they all influenced each other.

When Rome became Christian, the Church "civilized" the rest of Europe which was tribal...Germany,France and England didn't exist in 2500 B.C.
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Old 09-17-2016, 06:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agbor View Post
Africa we have to be careful to AVOID PROJECTING AMERICAN RACIAL IDENTITIES .C.


In fact modern notions of "blacks" and "whites" developed during the Transatlantic slave trade, and accelerated during the eugenics era of the late 19 and early 20th centuries.


Egyptians were neither "black" nor "white" but a bit of each, given its placement as a cross roads of northeastern Africa, southwestern Asia and the east Mediterranean Europe.
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Old 09-18-2016, 12:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agbor View Post
As there is more archaeology done in Nubia, an emerging theory is that the origin of Egyptian civilization may have originated in Nubia, and went North as opposed to the older theory that Egyptian civilization started North and went South
with Nubia being "Egypt-lite"...The new idea is that Nubia was a civilization in its own right, not a watered down imitation of
Egypt.

Keep in mind that the idea that Nubia is older than Egypt is based on Bruce Williams' interpretation of Keith Seele's findings.

"In 1962, at a place called Qustul, about 180 miles (300 km) upriver from Aswan, a University of Chicago team, under the direction of Dr. Keith Seele, discovered a series of plundered, but still unusally rich, tombs containing massive quantities of Egyptian trade goods and luxury items. Since the rising floodwaters were advancing rapidly, the tombs were excavated hastily and the material put in storage. In the early 1980's, when he first examined the material prior to its final publication, Prehistorian Bruce B. Williams theorized that the tombs may have belonged to a dynasty of ten to twelve A-Group kings and that, like Upper and Lower Egypt at about the same time, Lower Nubia may also have developed a strong centralized authority. Two of the objects found in the tombs were sandstone incense burners, made of local stone, carved in intaglio with scenes that seemed to show ancient Egyptian kings, dressed in traditional tall crown (signifying rule over the south) and protected by the falcon god Horus. What made Williams' theory so controversial was that he proposed that the objects did not show early Egyptian kings but rather A-Group kings, and that the objects - and the A-Group kingship - were earlier by at least two centuries than the Egyptian kingship of the same form. He went on to suggest that this hypothetical Nubian kingship became the model for the later Egyptian. The argument was quickly seized by American Afrocentrists as proof that Egyptian-style kingship was not home-grown but was imported from central Africa, and that the report by the Greek historian Diodorus Siculus in the first century BC that Egyptian civilization had derived from Nubia ("Aithiopia") was confirmed.

While Williams' theory was intriguing, it could never be proven or disproven absolutely because shortly after the clearing of the tombs all of Qustul had been flooded forever by the Aswan Dam and could not be reinvestigated. Given the large numbers of imported Egyptian goods in the tombs, one could also never be certain if the incense burners, too, were not simply Egyptian imports rather than Nubian products, as most would have assumed them to be. The fact that they were made of local stone seemed to confirm that they were Nubian, and many other objects and pottery vessels seemed to have a Sudanese origin. Williams' characterization of the tombs as belonging to a time "prior to any known Egyptian kingship" now has to be modified by the recent discovery at Abydos in Egypt of Egyptian royal artifacts that do indeed seem to reach back as far as the Qustul tombs (about 3400 BC)."


The finding of an early Egyptian royal image:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110804220442.htm
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Old 09-23-2016, 04:31 AM
 
3,543 posts, read 2,534,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
Keep in mind that the idea that Nubia is older than Egypt is based on Bruce Williams' interpretation of Keith Seele's findings.

"In 1962, at a place called Qustul, about 180 miles (300 km) upriver from Aswan, a University of Chicago team, under the direction of Dr. Keith Seele, discovered a series of plundered, but still unusally rich, tombs containing massive quantities of Egyptian trade goods and luxury items. Since the rising floodwaters were advancing rapidly, the tombs were excavated hastily and the material put in storage. In the early 1980's, when he first examined the material prior to its final publication, Prehistorian Bruce B. Williams theorized that the tombs may have belonged to a dynasty of ten to twelve A-Group kings and that, like Upper and Lower Egypt at about the same time, Lower Nubia may also have developed a strong centralized authority. Two of the objects found in the tombs were sandstone incense burners, made of local stone, carved in intaglio with scenes that seemed to show ancient Egyptian kings, dressed in traditional tall crown (signifying rule over the south) and protected by the falcon god Horus. What made Williams' theory so controversial was that he proposed that the objects did not show early Egyptian kings but rather A-Group kings, and that the objects - and the A-Group kingship - were earlier by at least two centuries than the Egyptian kingship of the same form. He went on to suggest that this hypothetical Nubian kingship became the model for the later Egyptian. The argument was quickly seized by American Afrocentrists as proof that Egyptian-style kingship was not home-grown but was imported from central Africa, and that the report by the Greek historian Diodorus Siculus in the first century BC that Egyptian civilization had derived from Nubia ("Aithiopia") was confirmed.

While Williams' theory was intriguing, it could never be proven or disproven absolutely because shortly after the clearing of the tombs all of Qustul had been flooded forever by the Aswan Dam and could not be reinvestigated. Given the large numbers of imported Egyptian goods in the tombs, one could also never be certain if the incense burners, too, were not simply Egyptian imports rather than Nubian products, as most would have assumed them to be. The fact that they were made of local stone seemed to confirm that they were Nubian, and many other objects and pottery vessels seemed to have a Sudanese origin. Williams' characterization of the tombs as belonging to a time "prior to any known Egyptian kingship" now has to be modified by the recent discovery at Abydos in Egypt of Egyptian royal artifacts that do indeed seem to reach back as far as the Qustul tombs (about 3400 BC)."


The finding of an early Egyptian royal image:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110804220442.htm
I am going to go ahead and crystalize two important points which you have alluded to and add one:

A) There is no image of the white crown procession on broken incense burner. It might represent the white crown, or it might be simple apophenia. It is broken and we have no idea what it really depicted.

B) Older Egyptian represenations have subsequently been found.

C) The incence burner might very well be an Egyptian import anyway. I believe the stone is Nubian, but it is a common thing for a people to import raw materials and export finished products made from them.

Nubia contributed some animal husbandy to Egyptian civilization, but there is really zero evidence of them contributing iconography.
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