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Old 07-05-2016, 07:49 AM
 
Location: London, NYC & LA
842 posts, read 654,565 times
Reputation: 684

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
There was no "African" conception of slavery. It varied from state to state, tribe to tribe. There was chattel slavery in Africa, it sometimes had a racial or "ethnic" component, and in West Africa, it could be unimaginably cruel. We have to be honest about these things.

In West Africa:

Slaves were given to cannibals to eat
Slavers were castrated en masse to create eunucs. They were left to bleed out, and most died.
Slaves were made into humna sacrifices, sometimed killed hundreds at a time, sometimes burned alive
Slaves were worked to death--the average lifespan of a slave in Kanem-Bornu was seven years
Sexual slavery was pervasive
Slaves were forced to fight in slave armies.

Some quotes from my researches:


Upon the order of the king, the prisoner designated for castration is siezed and a cord with a slip knot is places around his neck and tied to his right hand, thus preventing any resistance at the cost of strangling himself. The victim is laid on the ground where six stong men hold him down in such a way that that the operative area is level with a fairly large hole that has been previosuly dug in the ground. His head is covered with a sack. After having shaved the area, the operator puts a tight lashing both around the penis and the testicles at the root of the penis. Taking his curved, two edged knife and holding the genitles in his left hand, he cuts slolwy, beggining underneath and so up to the pubic hairs, making a veritble circular incision. He then proceeds with an acutal excision of the organ. No attempt is made to stop the bleeding: they wait for the hemorage to stop itself. For want of anything better, they turn the patient over on to his front so that the open wound is over the hole, while one of the attendents bends the right foot up towards the victim's back in order to increase the flow of blood.


Earlier, while Battuta was still at the capital, a group of African cannibals and their leader came to see sultan Mansa Suleiman. They wore large metal rings in their ears and wore silver mantles. they came from a region that possessed a gold mine, so the sultan was gracious to them, and gave them a slave woman as a hospitality gift. The cannibals killed and ate her, then smeared her blood on themselves and went to thank the sultan. As an aside, Battuta reported that he heard the tastiest meat came from the palms and the breasts.
Ibn Battuta


it is recorded that that the death of the Ashanti queen in 1816, more than 3.500 slaves were murdered in her honor. Others--the healthies of the young males--were castrated and kept as eunuchs.

"Not only was slavery an established institution in West Africa before European traders arrived, but Africans were also involved in a trans-Saharan trade in slaves along these routes. African rulers and merchants were thus able to tap into preexisting methods and networks of enslavement to supply European demand for slaves. Enslavement was most often a byproduct of local warfare, kidnapping, or the manipulation of religious and judicial institutions. Military, political, and religious authority within West Africa determined who controlled access to the Atlantic slave trade. And some African elites, such as those in the Dahomey and Ashanti empires, took advantage of this control and used it to their profit by enslaving and selling other Africans to European traders."
Zayde Antrim

In Africa, many societies recognized slaves merely as property, but others saw them as dependents who eventually might be integrated into the families of slave owners.
http://autocww.colorado.edu/~blackmo...yInAfrica.html


Slaves were needed in pre-colonial Africa to provide labour in agriculture, trade and industry. Some slaves were employed in the administrative sectors of the state, kingdom or empire. Other slaves served in the military; some performed domestic chores, a few others were sacrificed and some satisfied the personal needs of individuals.

Some slaves were sacrificed in accordance with traditional beliefs and practices during festivals, ceremonial occasions, religious observances and the death of important personalities.

...One striking difference in the use of male and female slaves was in the area of procreation. Procreation did not only fulfil the needs of individuals but whole states. After war, disease or famine had decimated the population, the state would send officials to the slave markets to purchase female slaves to procreate and make up the dwindled population. Throughout the period of the slave trade, female slaves fetched higher prices than male slaves. Female slaves became the wives and concubines of individuals, chiefs and kings.
Source: Dr. Akosua Perbi - Manchester College - USA

Since Dahomey was a significant military power involved in the slave trade, slaves and human sacrifice became crucial aspects of the ceremony. Captives from war and criminals were killed for the deceased kings of Dahomey.[5][6] Most of the victims were sacrificed through decapitation, a tradition widely used by Dahomean kings, and the literal translation for the Fon name for the ceremony Xwetanu is "yearly head business".[7] In later years this ceremony also included the spilling of human blood from the sacrificed.[4] Related with this, there was also a significant military parade in the ceremonies that further displayed the military might of the kingdom of Dahomey.[

According to R. J. Rummel, "Just consider the Grand Custom in Dahomey: When a ruler died, hundreds, sometimes even thousands, of prisoners would be slain. In one of these ceremonies in 1727


In various places in Africa, where human sacrifice was connected with ancestor worship, some of the slaves of the deceased were buried alive with him, or they were killed and laid beneath him in his grave. Encyclopedia Britanica

Among the African Asante, the victims sacrificed as first-fruit offerings during the Festival of New Yams were usually criminals, though slaves also were killed. Encyclopedia Britanica
Ok, lets have a look

Slaves were given to cannibals to eat
Slavers were castrated en masse to create eunucs. They were left to bleed out, and most died.
Slaves were made into humna sacrifices, sometimed killed hundreds at a time, sometimes burned alive
Slaves were worked to death--the average lifespan of a slave in Kanem-Bornu was seven years
Sexual slavery was pervasive
Slaves were forced to fight in slave armies.

Wow you made a lot of assertions there..

1. Slaves were given to cannibals to eat.

You have no real supporting evidence beyond one well documented description from Ibn Battuta (who incidentally was not African, he was Moroccan, the Moroccans prized the wealth of the Malian and Shonghai kingdoms for centuries). This is the problem when it comes to African history, behaviour in one region cannot be carte blanche applied to a whole continent and its history.

2. Slavers were castrated en masse to create eunucs. They were left to bleed out, and most died.

Absolute rubbish, perhaps under the Arab slave system which applied to Europeans and other Arab populations they enslaved as well. There is no evidence of there being widespread use of Eunuchs in what is termed as the sub-Saharan region.

3. Slaves were made into humna sacrifices, sometimed killed hundreds at a time, sometimes burned alive

Again beyond anecdotal examples like the Ashanti one you provide and the notable use of Sacrifice when the British approached Benin city during the punitive expedition of 1897. We have no other examples that was a widespread practice. Again one cannot use the practices of one region and apply them to a continent.

4. Slaves were worked to death--the average lifespan of a slave in Kanem-Bornu was seven years

This one is news to me as there are few records on the Kanem-Bornu, although a fascinating people little is known about the organisation and structure of Kanuri societies. I searched for information to back up your claim on seven years and COULDNT FIND one. If we look at neighbouring peoples that are close in culture like the Hausa and Fulani, the situation for slaves was more akin to serfdom.

Also that life expectancy would suggest the Kanuri much like Europeans had their slaves involved in some sort of labour intensive activity. The Kanuri have no monuments and aren't known for their agricultural prowess, much like the Fulani they are Nomadic pastoralists, much to the irritation of more sedentary cultures found in southern Nigeria.

5. Sexual slavery was pervasive

I am not sure this is really a point. sexual slavery was pervasive across the GLOBE. All societies from the European to Asian have indulged in it, so why the undue focus on African sexual slavery. Especially when I know of few if any notable cases of sexual slavery that match the Harem system of the Arab world. Heck human trafficking of eastern European women in the west still continues TODAY!!!!

6. Slaves were forced to fight in slave armies.

As with point five, this has been observed across the globe, so I ask again what is your point?? Also please give me examples of slave armies in Africa? Beyond the Mamluks in Egypt I do not know of any notable armies fielded in Africa that consisted of primarily of slaves. In fact slave armies are notorious for being unreliable because they are not fighting for a cause. The Mamluks being a notable example, oppressed slave armies often assumed power for themselves when the chance arose..


Now lets look at those quotes

On initial observation I can see all of them come from non-African sources. This has been the fundamental problem with African history in general. When I discuss West African history few are even aware of the use of massive earthworks, cavalry, armour, sword and shield usage in that region. The fault of this lies with the Western descriptions of African culture. This often makes me question one citation without any corresponding sources to corroborate that supposed fact.

But anyway


Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post

Upon the order of the king, the prisoner designated for castration is siezed and a cord with a slip knot is places around his neck and tied to his right hand, thus preventing any resistance at the cost of strangling himself. The victim is laid on the ground where six stong men hold him down in such a way that that the operative area is level with a fairly large hole that has been previosuly dug in the ground. His head is covered with a sack. After having shaved the area, the operator puts a tight lashing both around the penis and the testicles at the root of the penis. Taking his curved, two edged knife and holding the genitles in his left hand, he cuts slolwy, beggining underneath and so up to the pubic hairs, making a veritble circular incision. He then proceeds with an acutal excision of the organ. No attempt is made to stop the bleeding: they wait for the hemorage to stop itself. For want of anything better, they turn the patient over on to his front so that the open wound is over the hole, while one of the attendents bends the right foot up towards the victim's back in order to increase the flow of blood.

Where is this quote even from??

Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post

Earlier, while Battuta was still at the capital, a group of African cannibals and their leader came to see sultan Mansa Suleiman. They wore large metal rings in their ears and wore silver mantles. they came from a region that possessed a gold mine, so the sultan was gracious to them, and gave them a slave woman as a hospitality gift. The cannibals killed and ate her, then smeared her blood on themselves and went to thank the sultan. As an aside, Battuta reported that he heard the tastiest meat came from the palms and the breasts.
As I said Ibn Battuta was not a black African, the Moroccans were in geo political competition with the Malian and Shonghai empires. In fact I believe it was a Moroccan army that brought an end to the Shonghai empire.

Also beyond his observation no one else made reference to this practice. Ibn himself noted that beyond this event, that Shonghai society was very peaceful and more safe than other nations he passed through on his travels. Also I repeat the behaviour of a Mansa who for political reasons gave up a slave to emissary of a vassal state can hardly be used to say cannibalism was rampant in the empire or across Africa. In fact Battuta makes reference to the fact this was done due to the fact a gold mine was in their region. In the latter sentence it is also unclear whether the Sultan is referring to what the cannibals merely told him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post

it is recorded that that the death of the Ashanti queen in 1816, more than 3.500 slaves were murdered in her honor. Others--the healthies of the young males--were castrated and kept as eunuchs.
Again where is this from?? Source please


Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post

"Not only was slavery an established institution in West Africa before European traders arrived, but Africans were also involved in a trans-Saharan trade in slaves along these routes. African rulers and merchants were thus able to tap into preexisting methods and networks of enslavement to supply European demand for slaves. Enslavement was most often a byproduct of local warfare, kidnapping, or the manipulation of religious and judicial institutions. Military, political, and religious authority within West Africa determined who controlled access to the Atlantic slave trade. And some African elites, such as those in the Dahomey and Ashanti empires, took advantage of this control and used it to their profit by enslaving and selling other Africans to European traders."
Zayde Antrim

You are quoting a source from a PBS episode? REALLY The same PBS often attacked for political and ideological bias.

http://www.pbs.org/wonders/Episodes/Epi3/slave_2.htm

Even in the same passage please see the following from Zayde Antrim

"It is important to distinguish between European slavery and African slavery. In most cases, slavery systems in Africa were more like indentured servitude in that the slaves retained some rights and children born to slaves were generally born free. The slaves could be released from servitude and join a family clan. In contrast, European slaves were chattel, or property, who were stripped of their rights. The cycle of slavery was perpetual; children of slaves would, by default, also be slaves."

That being said, I have no issue noting that slaves were often prisoners of war we know that. What I took issue with is the attempt of other posters and yourself to somehow pass off African slavery typical to the region as being any way close to the brutal industrialised slave system in the west.

I have a quote for you from Mr.T. Valentine Robins

Upon slavery Mr Robins remarked that it was not what people in England thought it to be.

It means, as continually found in this part of Africa, belonging to a family group-there is no compulsory labour, the owner and the slave work together, eat the like food, wear the like clothing and sleep in the same huts. Some slaves have more wives than their masters. It gives protection to the slaves and everything necessary for their subsistence- food and clothing. A free man is worse off than a slave; he cannot claim his food from anyone. Mr.T. Valentine Robins , Among the savages Paisley Herald 1866

http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.c...60310/049/0006

When the author Mr Robins gives his piece the title "among the savages", he is hardly coming from a position where he isn't biased towards black Africans Yet he still said the above. Additionally as I mentioned, some nations like the Benin empire even blocked slave trading with the Europeans. At the same time, you chose to neglect the good old fashioned smash and grab raids made by European slavers. So much so that in some West African cultures people became fearful of venturing too close to the sea, recalling wives or children who never came back after going to forage along the coast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post

In Africa, many societies recognized slaves merely as property, but others saw them as dependents who eventually might be integrated into the families of slave owners.
http://autocww.colorado.edu/~blackmo...yInAfrica.html
The link above is a western source with no explanation of why they came to this conclusion. Additionally the link does not work

As shown above most sources cite the opposite to be the case and the documented rise of individuals like King Jaja also support this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post

Slaves were needed in pre-colonial Africa to provide labour in agriculture, trade and industry. Some slaves were employed in the administrative sectors of the state, kingdom or empire. Other slaves served in the military; some performed domestic chores, a few others were sacrificed and some satisfied the personal needs of individuals.

Some slaves were sacrificed in accordance with traditional beliefs and practices during festivals, ceremonial occasions, religious observances and the death of important personalities.

...One striking difference in the use of male and female slaves was in the area of procreation. Procreation did not only fulfil the needs of individuals but whole states. After war, disease or famine had decimated the population, the state would send officials to the slave markets to purchase female slaves to procreate and make up the dwindled population. Throughout the period of the slave trade, female slaves fetched higher prices than male slaves. Female slaves became the wives and concubines of individuals, chiefs and kings.
Source: Dr. Akosua Perbi - Manchester College - USA
Another western source and which society is he speaking of exactly?? Fulani, Hausa, Yoruba, Ifek, Ashanti, Berber, Taureg. Garbage!! Simply Garbage

Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post

Since Dahomey was a significant military power involved in the slave trade, slaves and human sacrifice became crucial aspects of the ceremony. Captives from war and criminals were killed for the deceased kings of Dahomey.[5][6] Most of the victims were sacrificed through decapitation, a tradition widely used by Dahomean kings, and the literal translation for the Fon name for the ceremony Xwetanu is "yearly head business".[7] In later years this ceremony also included the spilling of human blood from the sacrificed.[4] Related with this, there was also a significant military parade in the ceremonies that further displayed the military might of the kingdom of Dahomey.[

According to R. J. Rummel, "Just consider the Grand Custom in Dahomey: When a ruler died, hundreds, sometimes even thousands, of prisoners would be slain. In one of these ceremonies in 1727
This I can't disagree with Dahomey now known as Benin for reasons I am about to explain was notorious throughout the West African region for their Savagery. Think of the depiction of Thens in Game of Thrones, no one really likes them . With Dahomey, it is believed that their brutality was part of their modus operandi, with even female warriors beheading enslaved prisoners. To this day there are Yoruba who curse the people of Dahomey for their brutality and violence. Whether it was sacrifice is up for debate, but it certainly scared their enemies.

In fact Dahomey was an interesting example of an economic model that was born out of transatlantic slavery. Many Yoruba city state kingdoms were not actually keen on firearms much like the Japanese Samurai their preferred hand to hand combat and viewed it as more honourable. They traded their slaves for gold iron and other trinkets. The people of Dahomey only traded slaves for firearms and increasingly became very effective in use of firearms in raids on neighbouring groups. In particular using them effectively over the more organised Yoruba who had dominated them for centuries. The people of Dahomey thus entered an unusual economic cycle where prisoners of war were primarily taken to be sold as slaves for firearms, they then acquired more territory and the process continued. They savagely killed large numbers of Yoruba, who traditionally had more seasoned troops than the people of Dahomey. Eventually after eliminating huges numbers of Yoruba, they faced down one of the oldest city states and empire of OYO. OYO defeated the Dahomey with their mounted cavalry, eventually pushing them back and broke their armies turning them into a tributary state. Their violence and dishonourable use of firearms was never forgotten in the whole region. I recall being told this history by my uncle on his knee as a child It was actually documented by Law, Robin (1986). "Dahomey and the Slave Trade: Reflections on the Historiography of the Rise of Dahomey". The Journal of African History (just in case you don't believe my uncle )

In but in conclusion what we do know is that Dahomey was an outlier. Their reputation was so bad in Africa they changed their name to Benin. Stealing a name from an honourable Edo/Yoruba empire in Southern Nigeria. Much as the nation Macedonia offends Greeks, the name Benin offends many Yoruba who view the former people of Dahomey with disgust and no heirs to such a name and great sister culture of the Edo people.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post

In various places in Africa, where human sacrifice was connected with ancestor worship, some of the slaves of the deceased were buried alive with him, or they were killed and laid beneath him in his grave. Encyclopedia Britanica

Among the African Asante, the victims sacrificed as first-fruit offerings during the Festival of New Yams were usually criminals, though slaves also were killed. Encyclopedia Britanica
Again a western source, but with regards to human sacrifice yes it did occur. But the frequency is unknown, also this cannot always be conflated with slavery. Only notable instance I know of is when the British were approaching Benin city and the Oba was trying to appease the gods. This may have been commonplace, but in my views it was the last throws of the dice for empire that knew it was at an end.

Yes slaves were often criminals, prisoners of war and even the mentally ill (described as possessed). But I don't like to draw upon this point as Caucasians often leap upon this to explain the differences between academic performance from newly arrived Africans in places like the US and those descended from former slave populations.

Finally could I ask what your ethnicity is? Secondly where you raised? The reason I ask is because that gives a good indication of where you sit with regards to this debate. No where have I defended slavery, I merely pointed out the differences between African and Western European slavery in the transatlantic period. Generalisations aside most of the cultures in Africa had common elements to their version of slavery vis a vis that practiced in the new world.

I am not sure why you are so reluctant to accept that facts. Unlike you I will accept the truth of the situation if there is overwhelming supporting evidence. What this thread has shown in my opinion, is a general reluctance of those in the west to acknowledge the abuses committed in the transatlantic slave system and the financial benefits of that system. All efforts go into pointing out similar behaviour in other systems etc.

All very disappointing and it says a lot about some of the posters here including yourself. Have a good day

Last edited by nograviti; 07-05-2016 at 09:14 AM.. Reason: grammar and spelling
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Old 07-05-2016, 12:25 PM
 
913 posts, read 550,441 times
Reputation: 849
nograviti,

You complained multiple times throughout this thread that those with the opposing view only quoted from European or North African sources. Can you then produce some indigenous African sources to debunk some of these claims? If that is not possible then how do you propose such debates be handled?
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Old 07-05-2016, 12:59 PM
 
3,507 posts, read 2,514,588 times
Reputation: 6787
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
Ok, lets have a look

Slaves were given to cannibals to eat
Slavers were castrated en masse to create eunucs. They were left to bleed out, and most died.
Slaves were made into humna sacrifices, sometimed killed hundreds at a time, sometimes burned alive
Slaves were worked to death--the average lifespan of a slave in Kanem-Bornu was seven years
Sexual slavery was pervasive
Slaves were forced to fight in slave armies.

Wow you made a lot of assertions there..
Just a little writing tip here: postering works against you. Just get to the point to be more effective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
1. Slaves were given to cannibals to eat.

You have no real supporting evidence beyond one well documented description from Ibn Battuta
The best primary source available on the Mali empire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
(who incidentally was not African, he was Moroccan, the Moroccans prized the wealth of the Malian and Shonghai kingdoms for centuries).
Moroccans are not African? Wow. Shows your general level of education.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
This is the problem when it comes to African history, behaviour in one region cannot be carte blanche applied to a whole continent and its history.
Oh the irony. You and the one trying to describe African slavery as a benign blanket institution. I clearly said that African slavery varied from state to state, tribe to tribe. YOU JUST DID'T READ IT.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
2. Slavers were castrated en masse to create eunucs. They were left to bleed out, and most died.

Absolute rubbish, perhaps under the Arab slave system which applied to Europeans and other Arab populations they enslaved as well. There is no evidence of there being widespread use of Eunuchs in what is termed as the sub-Saharan region.
Nope. Well documented in the Asante empire. Again, just showing ignorance and denial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
3. Slaves were made into humna sacrifices, sometimed killed hundreds at a time, sometimes burned alive

Again beyond anecdotal examples like the Ashanti one you provide and the notable use of Sacrifice when the British approached Benin city during the punitive expedition of 1897. We have no other examples that was a widespread practice. Again one cannot use the practices of one region and apply them to a continent.
The Dahomey were also cited. You can stick your head in the sand, but it is quality evidence and generally accepted. All evidence is "anectodal." We can't built a time machine and see what was or wasn't done. Since West Africans didn't write the history of their own customs, this is what we have.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
4. Slaves were worked to death--the average lifespan of a slave in Kanem-Bornu was seven years

This one is news to me as there are few records on the Kanem-Bornu, although a fascinating people little is known about the organisation and structure of Kanuri societies. I searched for information to back up your claim on seven years and COULDNT FIND one. If we look at neighbouring peoples that are close in culture like the Hausa and Fulani, the situation for slaves was more akin to serfdom.

Also that life expectancy would suggest the Kanuri much like Europeans had their slaves involved in some sort of labour intensive activity. The Kanuri have no monuments and aren't known for their agricultural prowess, much like the Fulani they are Nomadic pastoralists, much to the irritation of more sedentary cultures found in southern Nigeria.
This is the one I can't source at the moment. It is somewhere in my extensive collection, and I will find it later. Everything else stands well sourced.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
5. Sexual slavery was pervasive

I am not sure this is really a point.
Africans raped their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
sexual slavery was pervasive across the GLOBE. All societies from the European to Asian have indulged in it, so why the undue focus on African sexual slavery.
Because no one wants to be raped, and it is yet another aspect of cruelty that undoes the myth of African slavery as a bengn institution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
Especially when I know of few if any notable cases of sexual slavery that match the Harem system of the Arab world. Heck human trafficking of eastern European women in the west still continues TODAY!!!!
Trafficking is illegal and not a state endorsed institution. They are two completely separate things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
6. Slaves were forced to fight in slave armies.

As with point five, this has been observed across the globe, so I ask again what is your point??
As with point five, it busts the myth of African slavery as benign institutiion. Being forced to confront bullets in your front and swordsmen at you back is not being treated like a family member.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
Also please give me examples of slave armies in Africa? Beyond the Mamluks in Egypt I do not know of any notable armies fielded in Africa that consisted of primarily of slaves.
The Ashanti. Again, you consitently show that you really don't have any idea what you are talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
In fact slave armies are notorious for being unreliable because they are not fighting for a cause. The Mamluks being a notable example, oppressed slave armies often assumed power for themselves when the chance arose.
Irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
Now lets look at those quotes

On initial observation I can see all of them come from non-African sources.
And? non-African soruces are fine, especially since West Africans did not do much writing. They had outside texts, primarily on Islam, in their own libraries, but there are simply not a lot of African written sources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
This has been the fundamental problem with African history in general. When I discuss West African history few are even aware of the use of massive earthworks, cavalry, armour, sword and shield usage in that region.
Irrelevant. You are trying to insert some good things as a distraction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
The fault of this lies with the Western descriptions of African culture. This often makes me question one citation without any corresponding sources to corroborate that supposed fact.
There is no fault here. People who could write and enjoyed doing so made observations, and they stand as the best descriptions we have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
Where is this quote even from??
Notes anthopologiques sur quelques populations noir de L'Afrique occidentale Francaise' L'Anthopologie

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
As I said Ibn Battuta was not a black African, the Moroccans were in geo political competition with the Malian and Shonghai empires. In fact I believe it was a Moroccan army that brought an end to the Shonghai empire.
It is the best source we have on the Mali empire, and still heavily studied to this day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
Also beyond his observation no one else made reference to this practice. Ibn himself noted that beyond this event, that Shonghai society was very peaceful and more safe than other nations he passed through on his travels. Also I repeat the behaviour of a Mansa who for political reasons gave up a slave to emissary of a vassal state can hardly be used to say cannibalism was rampant in the empire or across Africa. In fact Battuta makes reference to the fact this was done due to the fact a gold mine was in their region. In the latter sentence it is also unclear whether the Sultan is referring to what the cannibals merely told him.
We don't have extensive sources in the subject.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post

You are quoting a source from a PBS episode? REALLY The same PBS often attacked for political and ideological bias.

Wonders of the African World - Episodes - Slave Kingdoms

Please. There is nothing wrong with PBS. This stinks of desperation. If you want to pretend that PBS is fanatically atticking Africa because of some sort of right wing agenda, be my guest. The truth has been put out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post

Even in the same passage please see the following from Zayde Antrim

"It is important to distinguish between European slavery and African slavery. In most cases, slavery systems in Africa were more like indentured servitude in that the slaves retained some rights and children born to slaves were generally born free. The slaves could be released from servitude and join a family clan. In contrast, European slaves were chattel, or property, who were stripped of their rights. The cycle of slavery was perpetual; children of slaves would, by default, also be slaves."
"In most cases..."

Refuted. He has acknowledged in his own statment that there were exceptions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
That being said, I have no issue noting that slaves were often prisoners of war we know that. What I took issue with is the attempt of other posters and yourself to somehow pass off African slavery typical to the region as being any way close to the brutal industrialised slave system in the west.
No one said anything about "typical to the region." I said that there was no "typical to the region." You has demonstarted an astounding lack of reading conprehension.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
I have a quote for you from Mr.T. Valentine Robins

Upon slavery Mr Robins remarked that it was not what people in England thought it to be.

It means, as continually found in this part of Africa, belonging to a family group-there is no compulsory labour, the owner and the slave work together, eat the like food, wear the like clothing and sleep in the same huts. Some slaves have more wives than their masters. It gives protection to the slaves and everything necessary for their subsistence- food and clothing. A free man is worse off than a slave; he cannot claim his food from anyone. Mr.T. Valentine Robins , Among the savages Paisley Herald 1866

http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.c...60310/049/0006

When the author Mr Robins gives his piece the title "among the savages", he is hardly coming from a position where he isn't biased towards black Africans Yet he still said the above. Additionally as I mentioned, some nations like the Benin empire even blocked slave trading with the Europeans. At the same time, you chose to neglect the good old fashioned smash and grab raids made by European slavers. So much so that in some West African cultures people became fearful of venturing too close to the sea, recalling wives or children who never came back after going to forage along the coast.



The link above is a western source with no explanation of why they came to this conclusion. Additionally the link does not work

As shown above most sources cite the opposite to be the case and the documented rise of individuals like King Jaja also support this.
Our examples refute this rose-tinted view of African slavery, There was no "typical African slavery," and some forms could be quite cruel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
Another western source and which society is he speaking of exactly?? Fulani, Hausa, Yoruba, Ifek, Ashanti, Berber, Taureg. Garbage!! Simply Garbage
Crying about the sources is intellecual cowardice. I do not appreciate you denoucning Western sources as "garbage." That is racism, and indeed, it is always going to draw the observation that West Africans largely did not write.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
This I can't disagree with Dahomey now known as Benin for reasons I am about to explain was notorious throughout the West African region for their Savagery. Think of the depiction of Thens in Game of Thrones, no one really likes them . With Dahomey, it is believed that their brutality was part of their modus operandi, with even female warriors beheading enslaved prisoners. To this day there are Yoruba who curse the people of Dahomey for their brutality and violence. Whether it was sacrifice is up for debate, but it certainly scared their enemies.

In fact Dahomey was an interesting example of an economic model that was born out of transatlantic slavery. Many Yoruba city state kingdoms were not actually keen on firearms much like the Japanese Samurai their preferred hand to hand combat and viewed it as more honourable. They traded their slaves for gold iron and other trinkets. The people of Dahomey only traded slaves for firearms and increasingly became very effective in use of firearms in raids on neighbouring groups. In particular using them effectively over the more organised Yoruba who had dominated them for centuries. The people of Dahomey thus entered an unusual economic cycle where prisoners of war were primarily taken to be sold as slaves for firearms, they then acquired more territory and the process continued. They savagely killed large numbers of Yoruba, who traditionally had more seasoned troops than the people of Dahomey. Eventually after eliminating huges numbers of Yoruba, they faced down one of the oldest city states and empire of OYO. OYO defeated the Dahomey with their mounted cavalry, eventually pushing them back and broke their armies turning them into a tributary state. Their violence and dishonourable use of firearms was never forgotten in the whole region. I recall being told this history by my uncle on his knee as a child It was actually documented by Law, Robin (1986). "Dahomey and the Slave Trade: Reflections on the Historiography of the Rise of Dahomey". The Journal of African History (just in case you don't believe my uncle )

In but in conclusion what we do know is that Dahomey was an outlier. Their reputation was so bad in Africa they changed their name to Benin. Stealing a name from an honourable Edo/Yoruba empire in Southern Nigeria. Much as the nation Macedonia offends Greeks, the name Benin offends many Yoruba who view the former people of Dahomey with disgust and no heirs to such a name and great sister culture of the Edo people.
So you have explained it away by saing that Dahomey was a savage state--not at all authentically Africa. It will let this intellectual cowardice stand as it is. It does you no good.

As for Macedonia offending the Greeks, you are even worse at Euroepan history than African.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
Again a western source,
Again, a great source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
but with regards to human sacrifice yes it did occur.
Wow. You have finally siad something intellectually honest. Good for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
But the frequency is unknown, also this cannot always be conflated with slavery.
Irrelevant. Slaves wee used as human sacrifices in at least two of the most powerful African stats. Probably many more, but we don't know, because Africans did not leave us with a plethora of written sources.



Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
Only notable instance I know of is when the British were approaching Benin city and the Oba was trying to appease the gods. This may have been commonplace, but in my views it was the last throws of the dice for empire that knew it was at an end.

Yes slaves were often criminals, prisoners of war and even the mentally ill (described as possessed). But I don't like to draw upon this point as Caucasians often leap upon this to explain the differences between academic performance from newly arrived Africans in places like the US and those descended from former slave populations.
Wow! They only killed the mentally ill and prisoners of war as human sacrifices. THIS IS BIG OF THEM!

Step back for a moment and look at the nonsense that you are spewing. Do you think that your dishonesty has pursuaded anyone reading through the thread? At the end of the say, everything I said is still true and most of it well sourced.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
Finally could I ask what your ethnicity is? Secondly where you raised? The reason I ask is because that gives a good indication of where you sit with regards to this debate.
You ask because you want to employee racism. You want to refute the man rather than the argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
No where have I defended slavery, I merely pointed out the differences between African and Western European slavery in the transatlantic period. Generalisations aside most of the cultures in Africa had common elements to their version of slavery vis a vis that practiced in the new world.
The differances are that in Western culture, slaves were not eaten or sacrificed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post

I am not sure why you are so reluctant to accept that facts.
The irony.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
Unlike you I will accept the truth of the situation if there is overwhelming supporting evidence.

Please. I am gong to do you a favor and let you know that you are making a fool of yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
What this thread has shown in my opinion, is a general reluctance of those in the west to acknowledge the abuses committed in the transatlantic slave system and the financial benefits of that system. All efforts go into pointing out similar behaviour in other systems etc.
What this thread has shown is denial, deceit and intellectual cowardice on your part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
All very disappointing and it says a lot about some of the posters here including yourself. Have a good day
No one cares that you are disappointed. In fact, it is a wee bit comical.

You are in denial. Everything I have said is 100% true. You can go ahead and investigate it more deeply if you have the intellectual courage. The great things is, it doesn't matter if you do or not. It is still true and anyone reading through the thread will now have that exposure to that truth.

The myth of West African slavery as some kind of benign indentured servitude is absoultely that: a myth.

I am going to leave you with a challenge:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkwensky View Post
nograviti,

You complained multiple times throughout this thread that those with the opposing view only quoted from European or North African sources. Can you then produce some indigenous African sources to debunk some of these claims? If that is not possible then how do you propose such debates be handled?

Last edited by cachibatches; 07-05-2016 at 01:10 PM..
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Old 07-05-2016, 02:31 PM
 
Location: London, NYC & LA
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Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
Just a little writing tip here: postering works against you. Just get to the point to be more effective.



The best primary source available on the Mali empire.



Moroccans are not African? Wow. Shows your general level of education.



Oh the irony. You and the one trying to describe African slavery as a benign blanket institution. I clearly said that African slavery varied from state to state, tribe to tribe. YOU JUST DID'T READ IT.



Nope. Well documented in the Asante empire. Again, just showing ignorance and denial.



The Dahomey were also cited. You can stick your head in the sand, but it is quality evidence and generally accepted. All evidence is "anectodal." We can't built a time machine and see what was or wasn't done. Since West Africans didn't write the history of their own customs, this is what we have.




This is the one I can't source at the moment. It is somewhere in my extensive collection, and I will find it later. Everything else stands well sourced.




Africans raped their own.



Because no one wants to be raped, and it is yet another aspect of cruelty that undoes the myth of African slavery as a bengn institution.



Trafficking is illegal and not a state endorsed institution. They are two completely separate things.



As with point five, it busts the myth of African slavery as benign institutiion. Being forced to confront bullets in your front and swordsmen at you back is not being treated like a family member.



The Ashanti. Again, you consitently show that you really don't have any idea what you are talking about.



Irrelevant.



And? non-African soruces are fine, especially since West Africans did not do much writing. They had outside texts, primarily on Islam, in their own libraries, but there are simply not a lot of African written sources.



Irrelevant. You are trying to insert some good things as a distraction.



There is no fault here. People who could write and enjoyed doing so made observations, and they stand as the best descriptions we have.



Notes anthopologiques sur quelques populations noir de L'Afrique occidentale Francaise' L'Anthopologie



It is the best source we have on the Mali empire, and still heavily studied to this day.



We don't have extensive sources in the subject.





Please. There is nothing wrong with PBS. This stinks of desperation. If you want to pretend that PBS is fanatically atticking Africa because of some sort of right wing agenda, be my guest. The truth has been put out there.



"In most cases..."

Refuted. He has acknowledged in his own statment that there were exceptions.




No one said anything about "typical to the region." I said that there was no "typical to the region." You has demonstarted an astounding lack of reading conprehension.



Our examples refute this rose-tinted view of African slavery, There was no "typical African slavery," and some forms could be quite cruel.



Crying about the sources is intellecual cowardice. I do not appreciate you denoucning Western sources as "garbage." That is racism, and indeed, it is always going to draw the observation that West Africans largely did not write.




So you have explained it away by saing that Dahomey was a savage state--not at all authentically Africa. It will let this intellectual cowardice stand as it is. It does you no good.

As for Macedonia offending the Greeks, you are even worse at Euroepan history than African.




Again, a great source.



Wow. You have finally siad something intellectually honest. Good for you.



Irrelevant. Slaves wee used as human sacrifices in at least two of the most powerful African stats. Probably many more, but we don't know, because Africans did not leave us with a plethora of written sources.





Wow! They only killed the mentally ill and prisoners of war as human sacrifices. THIS IS BIG OF THEM!

Step back for a moment and look at the nonsense that you are spewing. Do you think that your dishonesty has pursuaded anyone reading through the thread? At the end of the say, everything I said is still true and most of it well sourced.




You ask because you want to employee racism. You want to refute the man rather than the argument.



The differances are that in Western culture, slaves were not eaten or sacrificed.



The irony.




Please. I am gong to do you a favor and let you know that you are making a fool of yourself.



What this thread has shown is denial, deceit and intellectual cowardice on your part.



No one cares that you are disappointed. In fact, it is a wee bit comical.

You are in denial. Everything I have said is 100% true. You can go ahead and investigate it more deeply if you have the intellectual courage. The great things is, it doesn't matter if you do or not. It is still true and anyone reading through the thread will now have that exposure to that truth.

The myth of West African slavery as some kind of benign indentured servitude is absoultely that: a myth.

I am going to leave you with a challenge:
Wow the weakest response, if I ever saw one

When you start your post harping on about me claiming that Battuta wasn't an African I know you aren't up for serious discussion. I would admit there was an initial typo, where I meant to state he was not a "Black African" and nothing more.

Later on I wrote

"As I said Ibn Battuta was not a black African, the Moroccans were in geo political competition with the Malian and Shonghai empires. In fact I believe it was a Moroccan army that brought an end to the Shonghai empire. " clarifying this. Is someone cherry picking???


I sense you and other largely western posters really want to win this discussion, its is really palpable but I am afraid you cant.

You haven't addressed any of the points I raised, so we are done here. Anyone except for any of your fellow bigots knows you failed to counter any of the main points I gave you.

With points like "Africans raped their own" I don't even need to try. Men across the world have sadly raped women so what is your point?

I even used your own quote from Zayde Antrim against you and somehow you brazenly think you are dominating this debate Then you come up with some nonsense that the individual went back on this later..

One of your sources miraculously disappears and you failed to acknowledge my European sources noting the difference between the general African conception of slavery compared to its European counterpart. At this point I cant discuss this with you as you are wilfully ignoring information that doesn't suit you.

Also please show me your sources showing that the main bulk of the Ashanti army was made up of slaves. That is the first time I have ever heard that and I would be very interested to see that info.

"Trafficking is illegal and not a state endorsed institution", during the world cup thousands of women were trafficked to Germany where prostitution is legal to service visitors. Some argued that Germany was complicit in this, so the line is more blurred than you think

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...any.features11



I have said it many times in posts before, slavery was and is an evil practice. All of the associated acts that comes with it likewise. It is you and other white posters here who have gone down the road of X other culture did this and that. Just acknowledge western slavery for what it was, show some humility and move on.

The rest of your post is comprised of ad hominem attacks and further assertions not backed up by any evidence. So I am proud to say we are done here.

Your ethnicity is very important as it shows where you are coming from. In fairness I know you aren't that bright, because you weren't smart enough to lie. What we can assume is that you are another white bigot, with a white washed history of the world. Who dislikes a brown person refuting some untruths with his narrative of history.

As for me not knowing European history with my reference to the Republic of Macedonia, you are aware that the Greek Minister Michael Papacostaninou raised the issue with the name of the republic of Macedonia with the UN (see here)

http://www.un.org/french/docs/cs/rep...95/93-95_7.pdf

I will leave other posters to reflect upon your supposed intelligence with that one.

It is very amusing when a man from a foreign culture and people tries to tell a man the facts about his own region, culture and history.

Go relax and take your furious bigotry elsewhere.

Last edited by nograviti; 07-05-2016 at 03:31 PM..
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Old 07-05-2016, 02:40 PM
 
Location: London, NYC & LA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkwensky View Post
nograviti,

You complained multiple times throughout this thread that those with the opposing view only quoted from European or North African sources. Can you then produce some indigenous African sources to debunk some of these claims? If that is not possible then how do you propose such debates be handled?
Sure I would love if more efforts were made to understand the Timbuktu Manuscripts which number up to 700,000 individual texts covering art, philosophy, history and science.

Other associated texts like the Kano Chronicles. There are also other books in Oyo and other Yoruba regions that should also be translated.

Assuming this is a genuine question, one of the biggest issues still afflicting Africa as we know is money or lack of. A lot of populations in these regions just want to survive they have little interest in the preservation of these books.

If more resources could be found then, then these texts could be preserved and translated for future generations.


Last edited by nograviti; 07-05-2016 at 02:55 PM.. Reason: grammar
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Old 07-05-2016, 03:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
Sure I would love if more efforts were made to understand the Timbuktu Manuscripts which number up to 700,000 individual texts covering art, philosophy, history and science.

Other associated texts like the Kano Chronicles. There are also other books in Oyo and other Yoruba regions that should also be translated.

Assuming this is a genuine question, one of the biggest issues still afflicting Africa as we know is money or lack of. A lot of populations in these regions just want to survive they have little interest in the preservation of these books.

If more resources could be found then, then these texts could be preserved and translated for future generations.

Of course these texts, like all sources of human knowledge, should be studied, translated, scanned and uploaded. The condition of their preservation is however a different topic.

Sounds like you haven't studied these sources yourself. Have you at least read from scholars who did study them and have commented on their contents with regard to the subject of slavery? I have a feeling that you you had we would've seen the results.

Another point about slavery - one should also compare apples to apples. It made little sense to compare the plight of plantation slaves to domestic slaves in Africa. A better comparison would be to the African equivalent of industrial slavery, like in palm oil production or gold mining.
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Old 07-05-2016, 04:04 PM
 
Location: London, NYC & LA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkwensky View Post
Of course these texts, like all sources of human knowledge, should be studied, translated, scanned and uploaded. The condition of their preservation is however a different topic.

Sounds like you haven't studied these sources yourself. Have you at least read from scholars who did study them and have commented on their contents with regard to the subject of slavery? I have a feeling that you you had we would've seen the results.

Another point about slavery - one should also compare apples to apples. It made little sense to compare the plight of plantation slaves to domestic slaves in Africa. A better comparison would be to the African equivalent of industrial slavery, like in palm oil production or gold mining.
You asked for sources, I gave you them now you are asking me about their content. So be it

Ahmad Baba a black man in Mali wrote in 1612

‘Your slaves are your brothers’, adding as follows: ‘God orders that slaves must be treated with humanity"

"one must pity their sad luck, and spare them bad
treatment, since just the fact of becoming the owner of another person bruises the heart, because servitude is inseparable from the idea of violence and domination, especially when it
relates to a slave taken far away from his country’ "

I think his views on how to conduct slavery are pretty clear dont you?

Other texts are still being translated and more will be revealed in time..

The Kano Chronicles only mention the creation of plantations starting during the reign of abdullah burja and that they were run in line with Islamic principles. So one can assume a serf type system more typical to African or Arab slavery was applied.

Ok I think we done here. Not sure your initial question was made with the best intentions but I addressed your question unlike another poster..

With regards to your latter point, I am afraid I disagree as the differing slave systems at points in history existed at the same time. Also some African nations stopped trading slaves with Europeans when they became aware of the abuses. Also unlike another poster can you actually acknowledge the crime that was western slavery and the financial benefits of it?

Last edited by nograviti; 07-05-2016 at 04:25 PM..
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Old 07-05-2016, 08:35 PM
 
913 posts, read 550,441 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
You asked for sources, I gave you them now you are asking me about their content. So be it

Ahmad Baba a black man in Mali wrote in 1612

‘Your slaves are your brothers’, adding as follows: ‘God orders that slaves must be treated with humanity"

"one must pity their sad luck, and spare them bad
treatment, since just the fact of becoming the owner of another person bruises the heart, because servitude is inseparable from the idea of violence and domination, especially when it
relates to a slave taken far away from his country’ "

I think his views on how to conduct slavery are pretty clear dont you?

Other texts are still being translated and more will be revealed in time..

The Kano Chronicles only mention the creation of plantations starting during the reign of abdullah burja and that they were run in line with Islamic principles. So one can assume a serf type system more typical to African or Arab slavery was applied.

Ok I think we done here. Not sure your initial question was made with the best intentions but I addressed your question unlike another poster..

With regards to your latter point, I am afraid I disagree as the differing slave systems at points in history existed at the same time. Also some African nations stopped trading slaves with Europeans when they became aware of the abuses. Also unlike another poster can you actually acknowledge the crime that was western slavery and the financial benefits of it?
Actually what I asked for are sources that support your points, which isn't exactly unfair since you seem to suggest that you have them.

I don't think quoting the writings of religious figures constitute strong support for your point. One can find writings from 16th century Spanish Catholic priests who decried the way their countrymen mistreated Indians but we all know that they were pretty much ignored. Travel logs or court documents would be stronger evidence if they surface some day.

I doubt few people here would not acknowledge that Western slavery of Africans and others is a great historical injustice. The extent the practice benefited individual European nations should not be that difficult to figure out. You just have to spend enough time looking over the East India and other companies. I believe King Leopold II of Belgium visited Spain to look over its colonial ledgers in order to figure out what he can get out of the African cake. I'm not sure if you are claiming that Europe got rich only because of slavery or that it wouldn't be as rich without it. Both are valid and defensible questions that could be answered only by someone willing to dig deep.
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Old 07-05-2016, 10:25 PM
 
Location: London, NYC & LA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkwensky View Post
Actually what I asked for are sources that support your points, which isn't exactly unfair since you seem to suggest that you have them.

I don't think quoting the writings of religious figures constitute strong support for your point. One can find writings from 16th century Spanish Catholic priests who decried the way their countrymen mistreated Indians but we all know that they were pretty much ignored. Travel logs or court documents would be stronger evidence if they surface some day.

I doubt few people here would not acknowledge that Western slavery of Africans and others is a great historical injustice. The extent the practice benefited individual European nations should not be that difficult to figure out. You just have to spend enough time looking over the East India and other companies. I believe King Leopold II of Belgium visited Spain to look over its colonial ledgers in order to figure out what he can get out of the African cake. I'm not sure if you are claiming that Europe got rich only because of slavery or that it wouldn't be as rich without it. Both are valid and defensible questions that could be answered only by someone willing to dig deep.

Sorry but now I know your initial question was in bad faith. Ahmad Baba was not simply a religious figure and you are being very disengenuous in saying so. Just for the posters here, he was recognised as the greatest writer, scholar, and political theorist the Shonghai empire produced. Also please note nowhere in any texts that we have found did Ahmad Baba ask for the slave system to be abolished, he merely discussed the good treatment of slaves nothing more..

You asked for examples of black Africans giving their opinion of slavery, I gave you some. Then you try to dismiss it as the writings of a religious figure. I think we are done here. People are happy to quote aristole when discussing early concepts of democracy or politics in Europe, eventhough he too mused on religious concepts like the theory of the soul. Your hypocrisy is simply astounding.

I already gave examples from European travellers and writers who qualified the differences between the general setup of slavery in Africa vis a vis that in Western plantations. That should suffice to show more evidence supports my view on differences of the respective slave systems than yours.

I could go further and explain that even scientific studies at universities like Sankore had an islamic structure around them as was the practice at the time, but I think that point would go over your head.

At least you acknowledged the horror that was transatlantic slavery (although in a half hearted way). Go back and read my posts, nowhere did I claim Europe got rich only on slavery. I said Slavery and Colonialism massively aided and boosted wealth creation in Europe.

Lying about what I had said doesn't help your cause either. You and I are done too and I will let other posters reflect on our recent discussion...

Last edited by nograviti; 07-05-2016 at 11:54 PM..
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Old 07-06-2016, 07:27 AM
 
913 posts, read 550,441 times
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Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
Sorry but now I know your initial question was in bad faith. Ahmad Baba was not simply a religious figure and you are being very disengenuous in saying so. Just for the posters here, he was recognised as the greatest writer, scholar, and political theorist the Shonghai empire produced. Also please note nowhere in any texts that we have found did Ahmad Baba ask for the slave system to be abolished, he merely discussed the good treatment of slaves nothing more..

You asked for examples of black Africans giving their opinion of slavery, I gave you some. Then you try to dismiss it as the writings of a religious figure. I think we are done here. People are happy to quote aristole when discussing early concepts of democracy or politics in Europe, eventhough he too mused on religious concepts like the theory of the soul. Your hypocrisy is simply astounding.

I already gave examples from European travellers and writers who qualified the differences between the general setup of slavery in Africa vis a vis that in Western plantations. That should suffice to show more evidence supports my view on differences of the respective slave systems than yours.

I could go further and explain that even scientific studies at universities like Sankore had an islamic structure around them as was the practice at the time, but I think that point would go over your head.

At least you acknowledged the horror that was transatlantic slavery (although in a half hearted way). Go back and read my posts, nowhere did I claim Europe got rich only on slavery. I said Slavery and Colonialism massively aided and boosted wealth creation in Europe.

Lying about what I had said doesn't help your cause either. You and I are done too and I will let other posters reflect on our recent discussion...
It's odd that you think I'm dismissing Ahmad Baba's writing because he's a religious figure. I have nothing against religious figures and some of them provide good historical sources. The fact that the "greatest writer, scholar and political theorist in Shongai" needs to tell his people to be nicer to slaves suggest that they weren't, but you wouldn't get that because you seem to turn off your critical reading skill selectively.

I see now that you have a political agenda and reflexively make ad hominem attacks on those who disagree with your political viewpoint. I'm sorry to have waste so much of my time on the like of you. Other posters can easily see that you're no serious scholar who's just interested in a honest debate.
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