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Old 07-12-2016, 07:21 PM
 
1,418 posts, read 1,031,104 times
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Slavery was immoral without a doubt. But, as to what role "Africa played in developing Europe" this seems to be an impossible question to answer with any certainty. Our views are almost certainly shaped more by our contemporary ideology/perspective than "pure scientific analysis." At the end of the day, every society is history has used some combination of ingenuity and exploitation. Europe did both on the grandest scale.

At this point it is simply an academic exercise. Rather than re-litigating history, it seems to me better to focus on moving forward and focusing on areas of beneficial cooperation between Europe and African.

Last edited by jpdivola; 07-12-2016 at 07:38 PM..
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Old 07-12-2016, 09:29 PM
 
749 posts, read 596,655 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Sugar, which in the 18th century was as valuable as oil is today.


You are a troll.
The continental blockage operated by the Brits, the loss of Haiti and cane sugar block was overcome by the generalization of sugar beet use which grows easily in Europe. It was a cheaper, easier alternative. In fact this example serves as a general trend to explain why slavery and colonialism were abandoned. The main reason to stop enslaving people, conquering and maintaining faraway lands is that it was costly in money and manpower, terribly not cost-efficient and/or no longer needed. Simply put it had become obsolete. But colonialism hasn't ended it only has transformed into pseudo trade treaty and commonwealths.
Portuguese historian Jose Hermano Saraiva wrote that Brazil was more profitable to Portugal once independent. The fact that the Western powers ended colonialism and African slavery due to cynical economical reasons, give and and take, questions the profitability of such an enterprise.
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Old 07-13-2016, 09:32 AM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,928,652 times
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Originally Posted by seixal View Post
The continental blockage operated by the Brits, the loss of Haiti and cane sugar block was overcome by the generalization of sugar beet use which grows easily in Europe. It was a cheaper, easier alternative. .


Like I said. You are a troll. Beet sugar didn't become a factor until the 19th century, by which time Caribbean sugar had already entered decline.


Britain benefitted tremendously from sugar and from slavery in the 18th century. The fact that France, Britain, and the Netherlands fought so many wars over these Caribbean islands goes to show how valuable they were. Only trolls think otherwise.


The fact that Portugal didn't doesn't refute that fact. That is a different nation, and cannot be compared.
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Old 07-16-2016, 02:15 PM
 
Location: London, NYC & LA
842 posts, read 654,317 times
Reputation: 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpdivola View Post
Slavery was immoral without a doubt. But, as to what role "Africa played in developing Europe" this seems to be an impossible question to answer with any certainty. Our views are almost certainly shaped more by our contemporary ideology/perspective than "pure scientific analysis." At the end of the day, every society is history has used some combination of ingenuity and exploitation. Europe did both on the grandest scale.

At this point it is simply an academic exercise. Rather than re-litigating history, it seems to me better to focus on moving forward and focusing on areas of beneficial cooperation between Europe and African.
Nonsense, clear numbers were given throughout this thread. As with another poster go back have a read and comment again..
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Old 07-16-2016, 02:44 PM
 
Location: London, NYC & LA
842 posts, read 654,317 times
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Originally Posted by caribny View Post
It is a known fact that white supremacists visit various forums on CD. They normally hang out on the Political Commentary side, which is why I stopped going there. Periodically they get bored and find other sites to indulge in their usual rants about white superiority.
The main thing is that this thread hasn't been a good showing for the supremacists..

We have addressed the question of the significant African contribution to European development much to the dismay of some folks here...
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Old 07-18-2016, 01:17 AM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,928,652 times
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Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
The main thing is that this thread hasn't been a good showing for the supremacists..

We have addressed the question of the significant African contribution to European development much to the dismay of some folks here...


I see you have abandoned your Brit friends on the UK forum as they boast that Brexit is the best thing ever, that the EU will collapse without the UK, and that Canada and Australia are begging to set up a "white man's club", no India, Nigeria or Trinidad need apply. Only the UK.


So arrogant that they don't understand that these nations have moved on, and are now fully integrated into the North American and Pacific rim economies respectively.


And easthome is still pretending that Britain is a fountain of tolerance, even as David Cameron admits that the aftermath of Brexit just indicated that Brits merely disguised their bias better, but now feel less compelled to do so.
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Old 07-19-2016, 11:41 AM
 
Location: London, NYC & LA
842 posts, read 654,317 times
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Originally Posted by caribny View Post
I see you have abandoned your Brit friends on the UK forum as they boast that Brexit is the best thing ever, that the EU will collapse without the UK, and that Canada and Australia are begging to set up a "white man's club", no India, Nigeria or Trinidad need apply. Only the UK.


So arrogant that they don't understand that these nations have moved on, and are now fully integrated into the North American and Pacific rim economies respectively.


And easthome is still pretending that Britain is a fountain of tolerance, even as David Cameron admits that the aftermath of Brexit just indicated that Brits merely disguised their bias better, but now feel less compelled to do so.



I havent abandoned anyone, neither was I with anyone. I would admit publicly that the Brexit vote did reveal some nasty elements in British society, but in truth I think that is no worse than what exists in America (especially given recent events).


In truth my desire to move most of my interests to America had more to do with economics more than anything else. Re Britain, I have little interest in living in a nation that owing to bigotry and weak lines of argument inflicted a recession on itself.


In truth I am considering going to Nigeria as there is a lot of development going on there. Eko Atlantic in Lagos for example will offer a lot of investment opportunities. I know I will definately purchase a property there or at least in Ikoyi or Lekki where my family have homes..

Last edited by nograviti; 07-19-2016 at 12:26 PM..
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Old 07-19-2016, 09:21 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,928,652 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
I havent abandoned anyone, neither was I with anyone. I would admit publicly that the Brexit vote did reveal some nasty elements in British society, but in truth I think that is no worse than what exists in America (especially given recent events).


In truth my desire to move most of my interests to America had more to do with economics more than anything else. Re Britain, I have little interest in living in a nation that owing to bigotry and weak lines of argument inflicted a recession on itself.


In truth I am considering going to Nigeria as there is a lot of development going on there. Eko Atlantic in Lagos for example will offer a lot of investment opportunities. I know I will definately purchase a property there or at least in Ikoyi or Lekki where my family have homes..



Its more disturbing than I thought because the UK has a shell economy, isn't competitive and merely functions as a gateway to the EU for American and Asian companies. And they don't seem to understand this. They blame the EU for their woes, but cannot explain why Germany exports more than 3X what they do. And in fact the EU is their largest export market, much of it being US and Asian cars assemble in the UK.

Yes Nigeria will be a good move, especially for some one with Nigerian roots. A hard country as you well know, but as it is evolving into a major economy it should offer opportunity. I know of Nigerians who left after 2008, and they don't seem to be back in NYC, so they must be doing OK.
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Old 07-20-2016, 11:05 AM
 
Location: London, NYC & LA
842 posts, read 654,317 times
Reputation: 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Its more disturbing than I thought because the UK has a shell economy, isn't competitive and merely functions as a gateway to the EU for American and Asian companies. And they don't seem to understand this. They blame the EU for their woes, but cannot explain why Germany exports more than 3X what they do. And in fact the EU is their largest export market, much of it being US and Asian cars assemble in the UK.

Yes Nigeria will be a good move, especially for some one with Nigerian roots. A hard country as you well know, but as it is evolving into a major economy it should offer opportunity. I know of Nigerians who left after 2008, and they don't seem to be back in NYC, so they must be doing OK.

We are off topic here..


But your initial paragraph is spot on, Britain has a lot of structural problems. I knew this well before the Brexit vote reared its head. Essentially Britain has a faltering economy propped up by a few successful regions, London & the South East, South West, Leeds, Manchester and certain parts of Scotland. London in particular is a massive outlier having more in common with hyper diverse and competitive city states like Singapore or Hong Kong. Hence the reason why it became hated by people living outside of London, although successful it looks and feels very different to the rest of the country.


Essentially if Britain does not retain access to the Single European Market and all that it entails (passporting, free movement, foreign investment, research grants and no trade barriers). London's competitiveness would be significantly eroded. London contributed significantly to the national coffers acting in essence as the Entrepot to Europe and the New York of Europe (financially speaking). I couldnt even be bothered to explain those facts, as most of them thought it was scaremongering.


Now from a weaker a economic position, we are attempting to address serious structural problems.


Looking forward to Nigeria and it will be very interesting on many levels..
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Old 07-20-2016, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,264 posts, read 26,231,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
Actually, Islamic invasions destroyed Europe's culture and instigated the Dark Ages.
1. Conquest of the Christian Levant and N. Africa, Spain, and the loss of Constantinople,
2. Commerce raiding in the Mediterranean Sea, slave raids, etc,
3. Incessant attacks upon non-Muslim countries,
4. The 'preservation' of European knowledge was due to the captured slaves translating the classics for the Muslim masters.
The Dark Ages began in the 5th Century. The first Islamic siege of Constantinople began in the mid 7th Century. So how did Islamic invasions "instigate" the Dark Ages in Europe?

Islam and Europe Timeline (355-1291 A.D.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages

Northern European societies were illiterate before the Romans arrived and they remained illiterate long after the Romans left.
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