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Old 04-23-2018, 06:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Nobody says people should return to the stone age, but yes, there is nothing wrong with a decent life in rural areas. Just because a farmer uses tools, does not mean it is industrial farming.
At the time of your great great grandma black people in general died early, didn't have much to do with farming.
A lot of Africans actually abandon agriculture because the West dumps its excess produce on African markets, at prices Africans can't compete with. The EU has a terrible track record in that respect.

I don't see any major change in Africa's development. I am more pessimistic than you. African countries tend to improve for a while, then they fall back again due to civil wars, corruption, undemocratic presidents clinging to power etc.

I do care about the environment and planet, it is the only one we got.
Just because someone uses electricity does not mean they are not more environmentally friendly than others. The average Portuguese or British person uses not even half the electricity a US American uses. Gulf states are even worse. So, it is not all or nothing.
White people in general died early too. There were no antibiotics, antivirals, or vaccines in those days. And yes, farming was a factor. It was hard, stressful work on top of no healthcare.

Re: Any Portuguese who move outside of Portugal's main cities will be replaced by immigrants from other countries. Not just African, Latin Americans, and Asians, but lots of Northern Europeans move to Southern Europe.

A part of being racist is to say all Black people are the same, all African countries are the same, nothing good ever happens, etc.

Yes, you can admit you leftists are not so different from right wing white hate groups on that front.

Last edited by NyWriterdude; 04-23-2018 at 06:19 PM..
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Old 04-23-2018, 06:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
And many fled the South when they were tossed off lands and their descendants now live in the killing fields of Chi-town. Much as the kids of these Africans collapse into crime in Paris, and increasingly in other parts of Europe.


There is a way to combine modern farming methods with the fact that people who have lived in a placfe for 1,000 years shouldn't be forceably removed.


You know how the removal happens. The local goons called soldiers arrive, bulldoze the people's homes, shoot to kill if they refuse to move. This while the local political oligarchs flock to Paris with the bribes received from non Africans.


Were the governments really interested in THEIR people they would arrange for the farmers to gain title, and for investors to provide, technical assistance, equipment, financing and access to markets. That way the standard of living is improved and countries get new exports.


Instead what will happen will be extensive industrial farming, massively overusing scarce water supplies. At some point the land becomes exhausted, the Sahara expands and millions of people crowd into cities where there are no jobs, many becoming part of the local Islamist thug group.
Modern farming methods and increased efficiency are going to lead to less people farming period, and how people lived for thousands of years is simply how they cannot live today.

The United States itself used eminent domain, and that played an essential role on how US cities became as big as they did. In order to build the massive highways, public transportation systems, airports, seaports, and universities even (see Columbia) eminent domain aka forceable removal was used.

You have had these forced explusions done in modernizing Asian nations as well, and obviously these expulsions took place in Europe as well. If the world were really concerned about poor farmers we'd live in the pre industrial era.
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Old 04-24-2018, 05:02 AM
 
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The reason why African slavery in the Americas existed was all due to agriculture. The life expectancy of an African slave in the Caribbean was 6 or 7 years. Farming families in later periods typically had 10 or more children to do work on the farm. As late as my grandmother’s generation, she had 11 kids.

Small scale farming just isn’t appealing these days, no matter how much some of you glamorize it,
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Old 04-24-2018, 09:47 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,421 posts, read 19,318,864 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
White people in general died early too. There were no antibiotics, antivirals, or vaccines in those days. And yes, farming was a factor. It was hard, stressful work on top of no healthcare.

Re: Any Portuguese who move outside of Portugal's main cities will be replaced by immigrants from other countries. Not just African, Latin Americans, and Asians, but lots of Northern Europeans move to Southern Europe.

A part of being racist is to say all Black people are the same, all African countries are the same, nothing good ever happens, etc.

Yes, you can admit you leftists are not so different from right wing white hate groups on that front.
Again, farming is OK if people can actually live on it. Small-scale farming is still practiced in many countries, think of rice in Asia. It is manual work, and people don't die young because of it. I actually think many of those farmers are healthier than fat people in the West sitting in the office half the day.
Just because people work as farmers does not mean they have to do without medicine and healthcare.

Northern Europeans moving to Portugal do not replace Portuguese workers. One reason being that it is vital to speak the language, which is difficult to learn, though.
There simply is a lot of good yet idle land in the hinterland and the government is promoting small-scale agriculture. The stigma of agriculture is luckily gone now and people appreciate healthy food again. There are efforts to make people move away from the cities back to the hinterland. And it makes sense.

Obama's wife also tried to spread the idea of growing one's own food again. It is a movement that makes sense anywhere around the globe.

Who said all black people are the same? I didn't. Still, many African countries share the same problems and have a very similar level of development.
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Old 04-24-2018, 12:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Yes, you can admit you leftists are not so different from right wing white hate groups on that front.
Rich White Liberals (RWL) are as racist as are the loony right wing ones. Personally I prefer the moderate whites. They feel slight guilt, admit that they don't really know blacks, and so are more inclined to listen. RWLs know it all, and think that they are superior, even though they don't admit it. And Rocko isn't totally wrong when he insists that they foist welfare solutions on us. His "mistake" is that he thinks that blacks are dumb enough to buy into that crap. Most of us DO NOT.
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Old 04-24-2018, 12:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Modern farming methods and increased efficiency are going to lead to less people farming period, and how people lived for thousands of years is simply how they cannot live today.

.
India and Mexico have found out that the so called "modern" farming methods which were promulgated in the 60s and 70s didn't work. The soils were overworked, plants too dependent on fertilizers and pesticides and excessive amounts of water was used.

In fact farming is now returning to smaller farms with more "organic" methods. Huge farming acreages ploughed by machinery don't work in arid climates like much of the Sahel region of Africa where a lot of this land grabbing takes place. In the more heavily forested places periodic rotation of crops is needed to prevent soil degradation.

In fact all we need to see now is Brazil where this massive low labor high machinery farming has created growing desertification, with global environmental impacts.

We also need to ask what is development? If "development" means that the local population is displaced to live in ghettoes of Lagos or Rome, is that really development? If Niger gives away land and nominal costs and sells food for nothing as the large Asian companies engage in transfer pricing where their African products are under priced, is that really development?

We have seen African nations give Asian companies huge access to marine resources and now the local fishermen starve as all the fish have been taken. In most instances the fish were sold for almost nothing and in many instances, stolen as the governments had no way of assessing how much fish were actually caught.

A better idea is what some parts of Nigeria were doing when the white Zimbabwe farmers were encouraged to bring their expertise and capital and work with local farmers on a joint venture basis. The whites got lands to farm. The locals learned better farming and agribusiness techniques. Little displacement occurs.
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Old 04-24-2018, 12:28 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,934,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Small scale farming just isnít appealing these days, no matter how much some of you glamorize it,
I suggest that when you look and see farming in Europe and also the farmers who sell at local markets in places like NYC. Not huge acreages.

Do you think that the massive acreages in some parts of the USA where slave labor is used, the defecate in the fields, and then a vegetable has to be recalled because of contamination, is sustainable? What of the excessive irrigation used in the deserts of the southwest where water is now running out?

In fact modern farming uses drip irrigation methods, hydroponics, and all this can only be done where there is careful supervision. Water is fast becoming a scarce commodity as the folks out West will soon find out when their pipes run dry, or farmers are forced to wage violent wars against city dwellers.
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Old 04-24-2018, 01:17 PM
 
24,221 posts, read 17,610,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
I suggest that when you look and see farming in Europe and also the farmers who sell at local markets in places like NYC. Not huge acreages.

Do you think that the massive acreages in some parts of the USA where slave labor is used, the defecate in the fields, and then a vegetable has to be recalled because of contamination, is sustainable? What of the excessive irrigation used in the deserts of the southwest where water is now running out?

In fact modern farming uses drip irrigation methods, hydroponics, and all this can only be done where there is careful supervision. Water is fast becoming a scarce commodity as the folks out West will soon find out when their pipes run dry, or farmers are forced to wage violent wars against city dwellers.
Local markets don't sustain or feed NYC, and at best they feature seasonal food. If you notice, NY was never the agricultural center of the US, and NYS will never truly supply NYC.

Much of the food in NYC is imported from warm climates. Citrus, bananas, rice, all sorts of warm weather fruits cannot be grown in NYC. It's imported from large scale farms from California or other warmer climates.

California and the West will manage just fine. Israel and other Middle Eastern countries use salt water desalization, waste water recycling, etc.

Europe also has large scale farming, and again LOTS of produce in Europe or food is imported from warmer climates.

European nations made those huge colonial empires in part because of the AGRICULTURAL resources, many of which they STILL important.

Of course the massive acreage where slave labor is used is sustainable in the US. In one form or another it has gone on for CENTURIES.

Southern plantations grew cotton (In Florida they grew sugarcane). Said cotton was either sent to Northern states or to Western Europe. The fashion industry made people more rapidly buy clothes instead of wearing people out, and this became a huge part of the economy of the West.

Just as Central America, Caribbean, South America, and African plantations send bananas, chocolate, papayas, coffee, and a host of other products to the US, Europe, Canada, and Japan.
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Old 04-24-2018, 01:21 PM
 
24,221 posts, read 17,610,929 times
Reputation: 9150
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
India and Mexico have found out that the so called "modern" farming methods which were promulgated in the 60s and 70s didn't work. The soils were overworked, plants too dependent on fertilizers and pesticides and excessive amounts of water was used.

In fact farming is now returning to smaller farms with more "organic" methods. Huge farming acreages ploughed by machinery don't work in arid climates like much of the Sahel region of Africa where a lot of this land grabbing takes place. In the more heavily forested places periodic rotation of crops is needed to prevent soil degradation.

A better idea is what some parts of Nigeria were doing when the white Zimbabwe farmers were encouraged to bring their expertise and capital and work with local farmers on a joint venture basis. The whites got lands to farm. The locals learned better farming and agribusiness techniques. Little displacement occurs.
Completely not happening.

Buying a small farm is not cheap. Nor is the equipment, the seeds, etc. At some point fertilizers of some sort must be used, and organic fertilizers aren't free. Oh, and NYC sewage sludge, among other sewage sludge is sold as fertilizer. So much for "organic" fertilizers.

Small scale farming does not, cannot, and will not feed modern metropolises like NYC. And the US and Europe, along with Canada, China, Japan, and any other part of the world that is developed or semi developed, are urban nations.

Last edited by NyWriterdude; 04-24-2018 at 01:52 PM..
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Old 04-24-2018, 01:52 PM
 
24,221 posts, read 17,610,929 times
Reputation: 9150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Again, farming is OK if people can actually live on it. Small-scale farming is still practiced in many countries, think of rice in Asia. It is manual work, and people don't die young because of it. I actually think many of those farmers are healthier than fat people in the West sitting in the office half the day.
Just because people work as farmers does not mean they have to do without medicine and healthcare.

Northern Europeans moving to Portugal do not replace Portuguese workers. One reason being that it is vital to speak the language, which is difficult to learn, though.
There simply is a lot of good yet idle land in the hinterland and the government is promoting small-scale agriculture. The stigma of agriculture is luckily gone now and people appreciate healthy food again. There are efforts to make people move away from the cities back to the hinterland. And it makes sense.

Obama's wife also tried to spread the idea of growing one's own food again. It is a movement that makes sense anywhere around the globe.

Who said all black people are the same? I didn't. Still, many African countries share the same problems and have a very similar level of development.
Oh yes they do in certain fields. Real estate, advertising, etc. Portugal makes a lot of money in tourism. So anything relating to tourism, that includes banking, advertising, real estate, among others will indeed hire Northern Europeans who can sell to Northern Europeans and Americans. The same is true of Spain and Italy. All three Southern European nations encourage tourism and foreign investment. Of course that attracts immigrants from around the world.

Of course you have retirees from Northern Europe moving in as well.
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