U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Africa
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 06-12-2017, 07:08 AM
 
323 posts, read 242,423 times
Reputation: 338

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
Flip nothing, You are a plagiarist, and I have shown it.

But now, let's get back to the Egytpians. DO YOU NOW UNDERSTAND THAT MELANCHROES DOES NOT MEAN BLACK AFRICAN?

Mathilda's idea is that it means dark.

Peter Frost's idea is that it is word that Greeks used to describe their own race.

Either way, it was used to describe Greeks, and does not mean "black African."

Do you now, after all of these pages, understand as much?



Nope but I do understand what plagiarism is and where you ripped informantion and ideas verbatim without sourcing.


Rather than continue to post links, I'll actually post both blogs(yeah, I'm than petty lol)


Exhibit A: This is where you got the idea and information regarding terms like melanchroe, swarthy and Aithiop being racial classifications without citing(you even stole the Strobo quotes from here lol)




"Ancient descriptions of ancient Egyptians."

Posted on December 3, 2009 | 11 Comments


"I had a go at this a few years ago, but since then I’ve got better access to the information, so this page should be more comprehensive. This was inspired by reading through the Alain Froment book from a couple of posts ago, that rather ripped Diop a new one. I’ll go and delete the older entry now.
Let me start with the endlessly repeated… ‘Herodotus said the Egyptians had black skin and woolly hair’.
The full quote from Herodotus …
“For the fact is as I soon came to realise myself, and then heard from others later, that the Colchians are obviously Egyptian. When the notion occurred to me, I asked both the Colchians and the Egyptians about it, and found that the Colchians had better recall of the Egyptians than the Egyptians did of them. Some Egyptians said that they thought the Colchians originated with Sesostris’ army, but I myself guessed their Egyptian origin not only because the Colchians are dark-skinned and curly-haired (which does not count for much by itself , because these features are common in others too) but more importantly because Colchians, Egyptians and Ethiopians are the only peoples in the world who practise circumcision and who have always done so.
Source, The histories By Herodotus, Robin Waterfield, Carolyn Dewald
"You will find translations where ‘black skinned and woolly haired’ are used, but the term melanchroes, which was translated to mean black in some versions, was used to describe any skin tone from bronzed to black, and through usage translates as ‘dark’. As is seen in this piece of text from Homer’s Odyssey.
"With this, Athena touched him [Odysseus] with her golden wand. A well-washed cloak and a tunic she first of all cast about his breast, and she increased his stature and his youthful bloom. Once more he grew dark of color [melanchroiÍs], and his cheeks filled out, and dark"grew the beard about his chin."
"And the term ulotrichous meant curly. As this Herodotus book commentary points out:"
Despite the efforts of Armayor and English, there is no linguistic justification for relating this term to negores. Melanchroes could denote any colour from bronzed to black, and negroes are certainly not the only physical type to show curly hair. These characteristics found in many Egs., ancient and modern, but they are at variance with what we should expect to find amongst the inhabitants of the Caucasus area. To Hippocrates the Phasians of Colchis were sallow (ochros) whilst the complexions of the modern-day Georgian population have been described as fair, sallow or ruddy. On the other hand, Arab geographer Istakhri describes an element of the Khazar people dwelling east of the Caucasus from at least the 6th century AD ” as if they were a kind of Indians.”
"The Colchians lived by the South East of the Black sea, and although there have been some attempt to claims this means there were black Africans living in the area of modern-day Georgia, believing this requires a suspension of disbelief on a par with that necessary to watch a Harry Potter film, as there’s never been any evidence a black skinned population living there. So Herodotus didn’t say Egyptians looked like black Africans, he actually said they looked like the people in Georgia.
This is occasionally backed up by the description of Colchis as being a ‘second Ethiopia’ from the fourth century, but it has to be remembered that Napoleon once referred to the Spanish as Negroes, and this was a common kind of insulting description for any population darker than Northern Europeans. A darker, Indian-looking Khazar population would have come into this category. So far there is zero biological evidence for any black population having lived in the Georgia area.
Herodotus is actually very specific about the Ethiopians (black Africans) getting control of the Nile at Elephantine, and differentiates between them and Egyptians."
"After this man the priest enumerate to me from a papyrus the names of other Kings, three hundred and thirty in number; and in all these generations of men eighteen were Ethiopians, one was a woman and the rest were men and of Egyptian race."
"Other Ancient Greek and Roman quotes.
The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it is a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone."
"Manilius, Astronomica 4.724
The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically."
"Arrian, Indica 6.9
As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians."
"Strabo, Geography 15.1.13
Black people resided not in the Nile valley but in a far land, by the fountain of the sun.
"Xenpohanes (Hesoid, works and says, 527-8)
… the men of Egypt are mostly brown and black with a skinny desiccated look."
"Ammianus Marcellinus
A little explanation required for this one, the term ‘brown’ means tanned. About 1/3 modern upper Egyptians would certainly have been called black by the Romans.
subfusucli {“somewhat dark/swarthy”)
"Ammianus Marcellinus 22.16.23- from Black Athena revisited
And finally, of lower Nubians:
"It was a market place to which the Ethiopians bring all the products of their country; and the Egyptians in their turn take them all away and bring to the same spot their own wares of equal value, so bartering what they have got for what they have not. Now the inhabitants of the marches (Nubian/Egyptians border) are not yet fully black but are half-breeds in matter of color, for they are partly not so black as the Ethiopians, yet partly more so than the Egyptians."
"Flavius Philostratus: c.170 to c.247,
So the evidence suggests Egyptians looked like Georgians and the Pakistanis (formerly Northern India area). Not exactly as surprise, as the DNA and physical evidence supports very little immigration or change in appearance over the past few thousand years in Egypt."

Link to blog
https://mathildasanthropologyblog.wo...ent-egyptians/




Exhibit B: This is where you got those same ideas verbatim without citing but a little more detail, where you stole that Peter Frost quote.




"Ancient testimony"

"Borrowed from the sci.archaeology newsgroup. Copied and edited with the permission of Michael Elby" (elby@fiberia.com)

"Ancient Greco-Roman descriptions of Egyptians"

Egyptians had a "medium tone"
"The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone."
– Manilius, Astronomica 4.724[/CENTER]


"Here the term Ethiopians (= Greek "burnt face", denoting very dark skin) refers to Africans inhabiting latitudes south of Egypt (Snowden, 1989). The term "Ethiopian," in that it was a broad category encompassing diverse ethnic groups of tropical Africa, was similar to a modern-day "racial" designation and roughly corresponded to what early anthropologists would have called "Negro." Yet classical writers, as exemplified by Manilius' quote above, clearly differentiated the Egyptians from "Ethiopians." Philostratus, for example, noted that a people living near the Nubian border were lighter than Ethiopians, and that Egyptians were lighter still."[/CENTER]
"Egyptians resembled Northern Indians"


"There are cases of Greco-Roman authors likening Egyptians' appearance to that of northern Indians, who generally do not look like black Africans. According to Arrian (Indica 6.9):"
"The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically."[/


"Strabo confirms in Geography 15.1.13, in almost identical wording:
As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians."


"Arrian and Strabo concur that the Egyptians resembled northern Indians – who are usually straight-haired and occasionally as light-skinned as southern Europeans – rather than the dark Dravidian types of southern India. Furthermore, although Arrian and Strabo differentiate Ethiopians from South Indians in terms of facial form and hair texture, they cite no such differences between the Egyptians and northern Indians."
"Afrocentric misreadings of classical texts"


"The meaning of melas and melanochroes"

"In their efforts to paint the ancient Egyptians "black," Afrocentrists rely heavily on misreadings of ancient Greek and Roman literature – many of which stem from a severe misunderstanding of the historical use of color terms. In many ages and many cultures, descriptions of human complexion as "white," "brown" or "black" would correspond in modern usage to "fair," "tan" or "swarthy." According to the anthropologist Peter Frost" (*):
"This older, more relative sense has been noted in other culture areas. The Japanese once used the terms shiroi (white) and kuroi (black) to describe their skin and its gradations of color. The Ibos of Nigeria employed ocha (white) and ojii (black) in the same way, so that nwoko ocha (white man) simply meant an Ibo with a lighter complexion. In French Canada, the older generation still refers to a swarthy Canadien as noir. Vestiges of this older usage persist in family names. Mr. White, Mr. Brown, and Mr. Black were individuals within the normal color spectrum of English people. Ditto for Leblanc, Lebrun, and Lenoir among the French or Weiss and Schwartz among the Germans."

"In the same vein, the Greek words melas and leukos when applied to skin color were usually equivalent to "swarthy" and "fair" rather than the racial terms "black" or "white" as Afrocentrists would prefer (see definition of melas in the online LSJ lexicon). There are numerous examples of this usage in Greek literature – one unequivocal example describes an aged Odysseus magically regaining his youth (Homer Odyssey 16.172-176):"
"With this, Athena touched him [Odysseus] with her golden wand. A well-washed cloak and a tunic she first of all cast about his breast, and she increased his stature and his youthful bloom. Once more he grew dark of color [melanchroiÍs], and his cheeks filled out, and dark grew the beard about his chin."

"In describing the skin tone of Odysseus, Homer used the word melanchroiÍs – a form of the same word that other Greeks sometimes chose to describe Egyptians, and one that is the source of much Afrocentric misunderstanding. If taken literally, the word would mean "black-skinned"; however, it is clear from the context that Homer means "of swarthy complexion" rather than racially "black," and intends to describe Odysseus regaining his youthful color. Otherwise we would have to assume that during the process of rejuvenation Odysseus transformed into a black African! This despite the numerous ancient artistic portrayals of Odysseus as Greek-looking and certainly not "black" in any modern racial sense.
"Likewise, when the ancient writers described Egyptians as melas or melanchroes, they almost surely meant "dark-complected" rather than literally "black." Any ambiguity in such descriptions can be resolved by noting that other classical writers such as Manilius specifically identified the Egyptians as medium in complexion rather than "black," and that the Egyptians portrayed themselves as lighter and finer-featured than their African neighbors to the south."
The Herodotus quote


"Perhaps the most frequently cited Greek quote among Afrocentrists is that of "Herodotus (Histories 2.104.2) describing Egyptians as well as Colchians of the Caucasus as "dark-skinned and woolly-haired." That the Egyptians were dark relative to Greeks is not surprising, considering that the same is true today. But Herodotus' description of Egyptian hair would, at first glance, appear to conflict with the physical evidence left by the Egyptians themselves – numerous mummies with hair still attached to the skulls showing more straight, wavy, or lightly curled hair types than "woolly." The only way to make the evidence consistent is to assume Herodotus spoke in a relative rather than absolute sense. That is, Egyptian hair was on average curlier than Greek hair, and the tightly-curled ("woolly") hair type was found more often in Egyptians than in Greeks – as is true today. There is no reason to assume on the basis of Herodotus' words that all or even most Egyptians had "woolly" hair, nor that such hair found in Egyptians was as "woolly" as that of tropical Africans. Indeed, Herodotus himself mentions only "Ethiopians" – not Egyptians – as having the "woolliest hair of all men" (Herodotus Histories 7.70.1). Moreover, Herodotus' explanation that being melanchroes or oulotriches "indeed counts for nothing, since other peoples are, too" suggests that these adjectives did not apply exclusively to any one "race" of people."
An analogous example of a stereotype based on relative comparison comes from the medieval "Arab scholar Ibn Butlan, who noted the Greeks as having "straight blond hair" and "blue eyes." Does this mean that all medieval Greeks had a Nordic appearance? Certainly not: it merely suggests that the blond-haired, blue-eyed type is more common among Greeks than Arabs and stood out more as a salient characteristic worthy of mention. The Arabs, like the Greeks, noted characteristics that were unusual in their own population and used these traits to typify the foreigners.
Interestingly, Herodotus mentions the Colchians as another group having "dark skin and woolly hair." Considering that the Colchians inhabited what is roughly modern-day Georgia in the "Caucasus, it would seem that the vast majority of Colchians were most likely – and quite literally – Caucasian. Of course Afrocentric diehards might claim that Colchians too were black Africans, but such a theory runs into trouble when one considers the observations of Hippocrates, who wrote that the Colchians in Phasis "are large and corpulent in body. Neither joint nor vein is evident. They have a yellow flesh, as if victims of jaundice" (Hippocrates, Airs, Waters, Places 15). Nothing in Hippocrates' description suggests that Colchians look anything like sub-Saharan Africans and this further weakens the Afrocentric argument that Egyptians and Colchians must have looked like "blacks" on the basis of Herodotus' words."
Other ancient quotes cited by Afrocentrists

"There are certain other quotes that some Afro-Egyptocentrists interpret in such a way as to conflict with other descriptions such as the ones at the top of this page. The interpretations have similar failings as the Herodotus quote. That is, (1) misconstruing melas and its variants as meaning racially "black"; (2) assuming certain traits mentioned in quotes are found in all or even most of the Egyptian population; and (3) assuming that when Egyptians do possess such traits, they are expressed nearly as strongly as in tropical Africans to the south. Using similar faulty methods, Afrocentrists might as well say Jews in the Middle Ages were "black" because Joseph ben Nathan in the 13th century quoted his father as saying "we Jews come from a pure, white source, and so our faces are black." Of course to do this would be to ignore the fact that in medieval Europe as in ancient Greece, black often meant "swarthy." Likewise, Afrocentrists could insist that 12th-century Turks were "black" on the basis of their being exaggerated as "blacker than pitch or ink" in the epic Chanson d'Aspremont. But we know on the basis of physical remains and ample pictorial evidence that neither the Jews nor Turks were actually "black" in medieval times."
[/CENTER]

link to blog:
Quotes









As people can see, you ripped these people's ideas, passing it off as your own research and ideas. Both blogs had every last one of your talking points down to the actual quotes you referenced. The simple fact the person(s) who wrote these blogs are using terms like "Afrocentric misreadings of classic texts" reads like propaganda material and is purely opinion based. There's no more need to debate, you deliberately stole information and ideas from these blogs(which aren't authoritative sources, just opinions) and passing it off as your own research and ideas. That my dude where I'm from is called biting lol.

Last edited by jkc2j; 06-12-2017 at 08:22 AM..

 
Old 06-12-2017, 07:09 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
5,286 posts, read 4,155,936 times
Reputation: 4349
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFP View Post
Hopefully that will be coming if they can find a way to extract the DNA.
Well, prepare yourself to find out they were Black.
 
Old 06-12-2017, 07:20 PM
AFP
 
6,898 posts, read 4,230,790 times
Reputation: 5878
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunion Powder View Post
Well, prepare yourself to find out they were Black.
Sounds like you've made your mind up before the genetic data is available.


I'll wait and see what the data shows lets hope the data is robust. I'm inclined to think the earlier mummies will be similar to the one's in this study. The culture could not have been supported without agriculture and there's no dispute that agriculture spread to north Africa from the regions that the mummies most closely match genetically.

Hopefully we won't have to wait long.
 
Old 06-13-2017, 10:30 AM
 
Location: San Antonio
5,286 posts, read 4,155,936 times
Reputation: 4349
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFP View Post
Sounds like you've made your mind up before the genetic data is available.


I'll wait and see what the data shows lets hope the data is robust. I'm inclined to think the earlier mummies will be similar to the one's in this study. The culture could not have been supported without agriculture and there's no dispute that agriculture spread to north Africa from the regions that the mummies most closely match genetically.

Hopefully we won't have to wait long.
And you've made up your mind with incomplete data.

I've never held the belief that Ancient Egypt was an entirely black society. I believe they were mixed, much like we are here in parts of America. But if you can't look at the Old Kingdom statues and see that these men were not white than you're simply blind.
 
Old 06-13-2017, 10:48 AM
AFP
 
6,898 posts, read 4,230,790 times
Reputation: 5878
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunion Powder View Post
And you've made up your mind with incomplete data.

I've never held the belief that Ancient Egypt was an entirely black society. I believe they were mixed, much like we are here in parts of America. But if you can't look at the Old Kingdom statues and see that these men were not white than you're simply blind.
I haven't made up my mind, I stated "I'm inclined to think" there's a difference you're projecting and inserting your thought process in my post. If I had made up my mind I would have posted "I've made up my mind" stop twisting my words to fit your concrete thinking.
 
Old 06-13-2017, 10:57 AM
 
Location: San Antonio
5,286 posts, read 4,155,936 times
Reputation: 4349
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFP View Post
I haven't made up my mind, I stated "I'm inclined to think" there's a difference you're projecting and inserting your thought process in my post. If I had made up my mind I would have posted "I've made up my mind" stop twisting my words to fit your concrete thinking.
Forgive me, but I thought "no dispute" was a phrase used to claim certainty about something.

What is your opinion regarding the Old Kingdom statues and artifacts?
 
Old 06-13-2017, 12:37 PM
AFP
 
6,898 posts, read 4,230,790 times
Reputation: 5878
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunion Powder View Post
Forgive me, but I thought "no dispute" was a phrase used to claim certainty about something.

What is your opinion regarding the Old Kingdom statues and artifacts?
The no dispute comment was regarding were agriculture spread from.

I think they are suggestive of a genetically diverse population and possibly multi-cultural and I'll add that some segments of the population may not have had a tradition of mummification even among the elite.

Egypt was geographically at the crossroads of numerous cultures and in fairly close proximity to many cultures. I know for a fact that Europe had contact with and absorbed some sub-Saharan African haplogroups estimated at 10,000 YBP albeit a very minor amount of those lineages survive in the present so it isn't surprising that Egypt also likely was diverse.

I don't think Jim Crow laws or miscegenation laws applied in this part of the world or time frame.
 
Old 06-22-2017, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Miss Jankins (Say nothing bad).
1,235 posts, read 1,426,080 times
Reputation: 1514
"Ginger" mummies.

 
Old 06-22-2017, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Miss Jankins (Say nothing bad).
1,235 posts, read 1,426,080 times
Reputation: 1514
More afrocentrist pseudo-science.

 
Old 06-22-2017, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Miss Jankins (Say nothing bad).
1,235 posts, read 1,426,080 times
Reputation: 1514
She just won't quit!

Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Africa
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top