U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Africa
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
 
Old 07-01-2017, 08:18 AM
 
332 posts, read 245,355 times
Reputation: 351

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Well, when they were very similar to SW Asians according to gene analysis, they were Caucasian. After all, Syrians, Palestinians, Jews, Persians, etc. are also Caucasian.
The study you posted only focused on mummies from the Middle Kingdom to the Roman period when there were countless invasions from the Middle East and Southern Europe. The study also stated that there were gaps in testing as there's no sufficient data to say what race the Ancient Egyptians were. You're only inferring what you believe based on that link you've provided not conclusive evidence
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-01-2017, 09:17 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,434 posts, read 19,328,093 times
Reputation: 8502
Well, even today, despite the influx of African genes over the past 1500 years or so, the majority of Egyptians still look like other people from the Middle East, random pics of protesters and voters:

http://www.trbimg.com/img-510c4d98/t...01/600/600x400
http://www.toledoblade.com/image/201...ypt-voters.jpg

Yes, there are some mixed and black people, but one might say the same thing about modern France.

Here Palestinian protesters (I like protester and voter pics as they reflect random people of a population):
https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/fi...d509f0/850/479
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-01-2017, 09:31 AM
 
332 posts, read 245,355 times
Reputation: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Well, even today, despite the influx of African genes over the past 1500 years or so, the majority of Egyptians still look like other people from the Middle East, random pics of protesters and voters:

http://www.trbimg.com/img-510c4d98/t...01/600/600x400
http://www.toledoblade.com/image/201...ypt-voters.jpg

Yes, there are some mixed and black people, but one might say the same thing about modern France.

Here Palestinian protesters (I like protester and voter pics as they reflect random people of a population):
https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/fi...d509f0/850/479
The pictures you've posted don't really prove much as there's been constant migration into Egypt from the Middle East even today. That doesn't mean the majority of people whom are Arabs that occupy Egypt today were the Ancient Egyptians. That'd be like saying modern white Americans that have occupied the America's within the past 500 years are the Native Americans.

Pictures of Nubians in Egypt which is what I believe the Ancient Egyptians closely resembled.

Why Claim Egypt?-images-3.jpg

Why Claim Egypt?-220px-egypt-nubian_wedding.jpg

Why Claim Egypt?-image-2.jpg

Why Claim Egypt?-images2sykvbks.jpg

Why Claim Egypt?-egyptians.jpg

Why Claim Egypt?-familia4.jpg

Why Claim Egypt?-nubian-lil-girls1.jpg

Why Claim Egypt?-nubian-2.jpg

Why Claim Egypt?-20100707_egyption-cotton-fields-3_23.jpg
Attached Thumbnails
Why Claim Egypt?-images.jpg  

Last edited by jkc2j; 07-01-2017 at 10:10 AM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-01-2017, 11:06 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,434 posts, read 19,328,093 times
Reputation: 8502
Not at all, Nubians were rather different from ancient Egyptians, the ancient Egyptians themselves made clear distinctions between the Nubians and themselves.

The group closest to Ancient Egyptians today are the Copts. People who withstood the Arab invasion.
Genetically Arabs did not contribute as much to Egypt as you might think:

DNA analysis proves Arabs aren't entirely Arab
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-01-2017, 11:37 AM
 
332 posts, read 245,355 times
Reputation: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Not at all, Nubians were rather different from ancient Egyptians, the ancient Egyptians themselves made clear distinctions between the Nubians and themselves.

The group closest to Ancient Egyptians today are the Copts. People who withstood the Arab invasion.
Genetically Arabs did not contribute as much to Egypt as you might think:

DNA analysis proves Arabs aren't entirely Arab
As already discussed the Ancient Egyptians did differentiate between themselves and Nubians but not necessarily in the modern racial sense. Not sure how you concluded the Ancient Egyptians were Copts as they are Christianized Arabic people whom reside in Egypt.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-01-2017, 12:22 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,434 posts, read 19,328,093 times
Reputation: 8502
Nope, detailed gene analysis shows that Copts are much less Arab than normal Egyptians.

https://copticliterature.wordpress.c...lims-of-egypt/
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-01-2017, 01:21 PM
 
3,513 posts, read 2,520,074 times
Reputation: 6805
Seems to have become an argument about the race of ancient Egyptians. It should be noted that Egypt is a nexus of three continents and people have been migrating through it for at least 50,000 years. They were always the mixed,mostly brown people that we have seen in hsitorical times, AND THIS IS WELL KNOWN BY THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY:

In fact, they are "blacker" now due to the massive number of people moved in the Arab slave trade.

Here is the truth in a series of snippets. Believe it or not, the scientific community decided this a long time ago:

Mitochondrial DNA Sequence Diversity in a Sedentary Population from Egypt
A. Stevanovitch
Mitochondrial DNA Sequence Diversity in a Sedentary Population from Egypt - Stevanovitch - 2004 - Annals of Human Genetics - Wiley Online Library
Mitochondrial genetic data from North Africa are documented by two groups of populations: one composed of populations of the Nile Valley, and the other by populations of the Maghreb. The Nile Valley has been shown to be a migration corridor with populations connected by gene flow (Krings et al. 1999), and phylogeographical analysis of mitochondrial lineages of populations from the Maghreb suggests that modern humans appeared from the Near East following at least two migrations around 50 000 years and 10 000 years ago. A possible migration from Europe may also have occurred during the Neolithic period (Macaulay et al. 1999).


Population history of north Africa: evidence from classical genetic markers.-
Bosch
Population history of North Africa: Evidence from classical genetic markers
After an intensive bibliographic search, we compiled all the available data on allele frequencies for classical genetic polymorphisms referring to North African populations and synthesized the data in an attempt to reconstruct the populations' demographic history using two complementary methods: (1) principal components analysis and (2) genetic distances represented by neighbor-joining trees. In both analyses the main feature of the genetic landscape in northern Africa is an east-west pattern of variation pointing to the differentiation between the Berber and Arab population groups of the northwest and the populations of Libya and Egypt. Moreover, Libya and Egypt show the smallest genetic distances with the European populations, including the Iberian Peninsula. The most plausible interpretation of these results is that, although demic diffusion during the Neolithic could explain the genetic similarity between northeast Africa and Europe by a parallel process of gene flow from the Near East, a Mesolithic (or older) differentiation of the populations in the northwestern regions with later limited gene flow is needed to understand the genetic picture. The most isolated groups (Mauritanians, Tuaregs, and south Algerian Berbers) were the most differentiated and, although no clear structure can be discerned among the different Arab- and Berber-speaking groups, Arab speakers as a whole are closer to Egyptians and Libyans. By contrast, the genetic contribution of sub-Saharan Africa appears to be small.


Near eastern neolithic genetic input in a small oasis of the Egyptian Western Desert.
M Kujanova 2009
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19425100
Notwithstanding signs of expected genetic drift, we still found clear genetic evidence of a strong Near Eastern input that can be dated into the Neolithic. This is revealed by high frequencies and high internal variability of several mtDNA lineages from haplogroup T. The whole genome sequencing strategy and molecular dating allowed us to detect the accumulation of local mtDNA diversity to 5,138 +/- 3,633 YBP. Similarly, theY-chromosome gene pool reveals high frequencies of the Near Eastern J1


The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: Evidence for Bidirectional Corridors of Human Migrations
JR LUIS
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182266/
"Paleoanthropological evidence indicates that both the Levantine corridor and the Horn of Africa served, repeatedly, as migratory corridors between Africa and Eurasia. We have begun investigating the roles of these passageways in bidirectional migrations of anatomically modern humans, by analyzing 45 informative biallelic markers as well as 10 microsatellite loci on the nonrecombining region of the Y chromosome (NRY) in 121 and 147 extant males from Oman and northern Egypt, respectively. The present study uncovers three important points concerning these demic movements: (1)The E3b1-M78 and E3b3-M123 lineages, as well as the R1*-M173 lineages, mark gene flow between Egypt and the Levant during the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic. (2) In contrast, the Horn of Africa appears to be of minor importance in the human migratory movements between Africa and Eurasia represented by these chromosomes, an observation based on the frequency distributions of E3b*-M35 (no known downstream mutations) and M173. (3) The areal diffusion patterns of G-M201, J-12f2, the derivative M173 haplogroups, and M2 suggest more recent genetic associations between the Middle East and Africa, involving the Levantine corridor and/or Arab slave routes. Affinities to African groups were also evaluated by determining the NRY haplogroup composition in 434 samples from seven sub-Saharan African populations. Oman and Egypt’s NRY frequency distributions appear to be much more similar to those of the Middle East than to any sub-Saharan African population, suggesting a much larger Eurasian genetic component"


"Synthetic maps of Africa". The History and Geography of Human Genes.
Cavalli-Sforza.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Frw...cover#v=onepag e&q&f=false
(NOTE: LINK WILL NOT TAKE YOU TO THE EXACT PAGES)
The gradient is clearly rooted in the relatively ancient presence of Caucasoids in a Northern strip along the Mediterranean and in additions from West Asia, which are visible in the second and third components....the C gene shows a clear North-South gradient, being frequent amongst Caucasoids and almost absent in sub-Sahara Africa. THERE ARE PEAKS IN EGYPT AND IN NORTHWESTERN AFRICA


Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations
Henn
Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations
We identify a gradient of likely autochthonous Maghrebi ancestry that increases from east to west across northern Africa; this ancestry is likely derived from “back-to-Africa” gene flow more than 12,000 years ago (ya), prior to the Holocene. The indigenous North African ancestry is more frequent in populations with historical Berber ethnicity. In most North African populations we also see substantial shared ancestry with the Near East, and to a lesser extent sub-Saharan Africa and Europe.


Y-chromosome analysis in Egypt suggests a genetic regional continuity in northeastern Africa
Manni
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12495079
"In conclusion, our analyses have identified a genetic regional continuity between the northeastern part of Africa (Egypt), the Middle East, and southern Europe. In agreement with the ethnohistorical connections between NE Africa and the Middle East, the genetic data confirm that Egypt, occupying an intermediate position along these routes, has been an important contact zone between the three continents."


The emerging tree of West Eurasian mtDNAs: a synthesis of control-region sequences and RFLPs.
Macaulay
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1377722/
We show that the main indigenous North African cluster is a sister group to the most ancient cluster of European mtDNAs, from which it diverged approximately 50,000 years ago.


Mitochondrial DNA structure in North Africa reveals a genetic discontinuity in the Nile
Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid
Mitochondrial DNA structure in North Africa reveals a genetic discontinuity in the Nile Valley - Fadhlaoui-Zid - 2011 - American Journal of Physical Anthropology - Wiley Online Library
Human population movements in North Africa have been mostly restricted to an east-west direction due to the geographical barriers imposed by the Sahara Desert and the Mediterranean Sea. Although these barriers have not completely impeded human migrations, genetic studies have shown that an east-west genetic gradient exists. However, the lack of genetic information of certain geographical areas and the focus of some studies in parts of the North African landscape have limited the global view of the genetic pool of North African populations. To provide a global view of the North African genetic landscape and population structure, we have analyzed
2,300 North African mitochondrial DNA lineages (including 269 new sequences from Libya, in the first mtDNA study of the general Libyan population). Our results show a clinal distribution of certain haplogroups, some of them more frequent in Western (H, HV0, L1b, L3b, U6) or Eastern populations (L0a, R0a, N1b, I, J) that might be the result of human migrations from the Middle East, sub-Saharan Africa, and Europe


North African Populations Carry the Signature of Admixture with Neandertals
Federico Sánchez-Quinto
North African Populations Carry the Signature of Admixture with Neandertals
The results of the f4 ancestry ratio test (Table 2 and Table S1) show that North African populations vary in the percentage of Neandertal inferred admixture, primarily depending on the amount of European or Near Eastern ancestry they present (Table 1). Populations like North Morocco and Egypt, with the highest European and Near Eastern component (~40%), have also the highest amount of Neandertal ancestry (~60–70%)....Furthermore, the Neandertal's genetic signal is higher in populations with a local, pre-Neolithic North African ancestry. Therefore, the detected ancient admixture is not due to recent Near Eastern or European migrations.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz50_nx8UDg


Who were the ancient Egyptians? Dental affinities among Neolithic through postdynastic peoples
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16331657
JD IRISH 2006
Qualitative and quantitative methods are employed to describe and compare up to 36 dental morphological variants in 15 Neolithic through Roman-period Egyptian samples. Trait frequencies are determined, and phenetic affinities are calculated using the mean measure of divergence and Mahalanobis D2 statistics for discrete traits; the most important traits in generating this intersample variation are identified with correspondence analysis. Assuming that the samples are representative of the populations from which they derive, and that phenetic similarity provides an estimate of genetic relatedness, these affinities are suggestive of overall population continuity. That is, other than a few outliers exhibiting extreme frequencies of nine influential traits, the dental samples appear to be largely homogenous and can be characterized as having morphologically simple, mass-reduced teeth. These findings are contrasted with those resulting from previous skeletal and other studies, and are used to appraise the viability of five Egyptian peopling scenarios. Specifically, affinities among the 15 time-successive samples suggest that: 1) there may be a connection between Neolithic and subsequent predynastic Egyptians, 2) predynastic Badarian and Naqada peoples may be closely related, 3) the dynastic period is likely an indigenous continuation of the Naqada culture, 4) there is support for overall biological uniformity through the dynastic period, and 5) this uniformity may continue into postdynastic times.

Research on ancient DNA in the Near East
Mateusz Baca
Research on ancient DNA in the Near East | Martyna Molak - Academia.edu
To obtain the frequencies of these mtDNA types, amplification of the HVRI region and three RFLP markers was conducted. The authors succeeded in analysing RFLP markers in 34 samples and HVRI sequences in 18 of the samples. Both populations, ancient and contemporary, fit the north-south clinal distribution of “southern” and “northern” mtDNA types (Graver et al. 2001). However, significant differences were found between these populations. Based on an increased frequency of HpaI 3592 (+) haplotypes in the contemporary Dakhlehian population, the authors suggested that, since Roman times, gene flow from the Sub-Saharan region has affected gene frequencies of individuals from the oasis.


mtDNA analysis in ancient Nubians supports the existence of gene flow between sub-Sahara and North Africa in the Nile valley
C. Fox, 1997
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9158841
The Hpal (np3,592) mitochondrial DNA marker is a selectively neutral mutation that is very common in sub-Saharan Africa and is almost absent in North African and European populations. It has been screened in a Meroitic sample from ancient Nubia through PCR amplification and posterior enzyme digestion, to evaluate the sub-Saharan genetic influences in this population. From 29 individuals analysed, only 15 yield positive amplifications, four of them (26·7%) displaying the sub-Saharan African marker. Hpa I (np3,592) marker is present in the sub-Saharan populations at a frequency of 68·7 on average. Thus, the frequency of genes from this area in the Merotic Nubian population can be estimated at around 39% (with a confidence interval from 22% to 55%). The frequency obtained fits in a south-north decreasing gradient of Hpa I (np3,592) along the African continent. Results suggest that morphological changes observed historically in the Nubian populations are more likely to be due to the existence of south-north gene flow through the Nile Valley than to in-situ evolution.

mtDNA Analysis of Nile River Valley Populations: A Genetic Corridor or a Barrier to Migration?
Krings
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10090902
To assess the extent to which the Nile River Valley has been a corridor for human migrations between Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa, we analyzed mtDNA variation in 224 individuals from various locations along the river. Sequences of the first hypervariable segment (HV1) of the mtDNA control region and a polymorphic HpaI site at position 3592 allowed us to designate each mtDNA as being of “northern” or “southern” affiliation. Proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the southern Sudan. At slowly evolving sites within HV1, northern-mtDNA diversity was highest in Egypt and lowest in the southern Sudan, and southern-mtDNA diversity was highest in the southern Sudan and lowest in Egypt, indicating that migrations had occurred bidirectionally along the Nile River Valley. Egypt and Nubia have low and similar amounts of divergence for both mtDNA types, which is consistent with historical evidence for long-term interactions between Egypt and Nubia. Spatial autocorrelation analysis demonstrates a smooth gradient of decreasing genetic similarity of mtDNA types as geographic distance between sampling localities increases, strongly suggesting gene flow along the Nile, with no evident barriers. We conclude that these migrations probably occurred within the past few hundred to few thousand years and that the migration from north to south was either earlier or lesser in the extent of gene flow than the migration from south to north.


A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...tool=pmcentrez
ARREDI Et. Al
...Since the estimates of the times to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCAs) of the most common haplogroups are quite recent, we suggest that the North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation is largely of Neolithic origin. Thus, we propose that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic–speaking pastoralists from the Middle East.

The mtDNA legacy of the Levantine early Upper Palaeolithic in Africa
Olivieri A
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/314/5806/1767.abstract
Sequencing of 81 entire human mitochondrial DNAs (mtDNAs) belonging to haplogroups M1 and U6 reveals that these predominantly North African clades arose in southwestern Asia and moved together to Africa about 40,000 to 45,000 years ago. Their arrival temporally overlaps with the event(s) that led to the peopling of Europe by modern humans and was most likely the result of the same change in climate conditions that allowed humans to enter the Levant, opening the way to the colonization of both Europe and North Africa


www(The biomedical scientists November 2003).
.cs.oswego.edu/~schofield/news/nefertiti.pdf‎
In the case of the skull believed by a number of experts to be Nefertiti, digital X-rays gave Evison and Schofield an image of the skull inside of the mummy...this particular skull could be classified as Indo-European.

http://www.readcube.com/articles/10....jpa.1330360603
(Brace, 1993)
"The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia... ...Oceania, or the New World. Adjacent people in the Nile valley show similarities in trivial traits in an unbroken series from the delta in the north southward through Nubia and all the way to Somalia at the equator. At the same time, the gradient in skin color and body proportions suggests long-term adaptive response to selective forces appropriate to the latitude where they occur...
...We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well."
The questionable contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European craniofacial form
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1325007/
BRACE
The assessment of prehistoric and recent human craniofacial dimensions supports the picture documented by genetics that the extension of Neolithic agriculture from the Near East westward to Europe and across North Africa was accomplished by a process of demic diffusion (11–15)....

....When the samples used in Fig. 1 are compared by the use of canonical variate plots as in Fig. 2, the seperateness of the Niger-Congo speakers is again quite clear. Interestingly enough, however, the small Natufian sample falls between the Niger-Congo group and the other samples used. Fig 2 shows the plot produced by the first two canonical variates, but the same thing happens when canonical variates 1 and 3 (not shown here) are used. This placement suggests that there may have been a Sub-Saharan African element in the make-up of the Natufians (the putative ancestors of the subsequent Neolithic), although in this particular test there is no such evident presence in the North African or Egyptian samples. As shown in Fig. 1, the Somalis and the Egyptian Bronze Age sample from Naquada may also have a hint of a Sub-Saharan African component. That was not borne out in the canonical variate plot (Fig 2.), and there was no evidence of such an involvement in the Algerian Neolithic (Gambetta) sample.
Professor P. F. Ceccaldi, with a research team behind him, studied some hairs which were removed from the mummy's scalp. Ramesses II was 90 years-old when he died, and his hair had turned white. Ceccaldi determined that the reddish-yellow colour of the mummy's hair had been brought about by its being dyed with a dilute henna solution; it proved to be an example of the cosmetic attentions of the embalmers. However, traces of the hair's original colour (in youth), remain in the roots, even into advanced old age. Microscopic examinations proved that the hair roots contained traces of natural red pigments, and that therefore, during his youth, Ramesses II had been red-haired. It was concluded that these red pigments did not result from the hair somehow fading, or otherwise altering post-mortem, but did indeed represent Ramesses' natural hair colour. Ceccaldi also studied a cross-section of the hairs, and he determined from their oval shape, that Ramesses had been "cymotrich" (wavy-haired). Finally, he stated that such a combination of features showed that Ramesses had been a "leucoderm" (white-skinned person). [Balout, et al. (1985) 254-257.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8WKXX4pij8

Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-01-2017, 01:22 PM
 
332 posts, read 245,355 times
Reputation: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Nope, detailed gene analysis shows that Copts are much less Arab than normal Egyptians.

https://copticliterature.wordpress.c...lims-of-egypt/

Interesting bit of info:

"Modern Copt genetic profile shows substantial Middle"
Eastern and European elements: [quote:]
"Haplogroups A, B, and E occur mainly in Nilo-Saharan speaking groups including Nilotics, Fur, Borgu, and Masalit; whereas haplogroups F, I, J, K, and R are more frequent among Afro-Asiatic speaking groups including Arabs, Beja, Copts, and Hausa, and Niger-Congo speakers from the Fulani ethnic group.. The bulk of genetic diversity appears to be a consequence of recent migrations and demographic events mainly from Asia and Europe, evident in a higher migration rate for speakers of Afro-Asiatic as compared with the Nilo-Saharan family of languages, and a generally higher effective population size for the former...

The relatively high-effective population size of the Copts is unlikely to have been influenced by their recent history in the Sudan. The current communities are known to be largely the product of recent migrations from Egypt over the past two centuries..“
---Hassan et al. 2008. Y-chromosome variation.." Am J. Phy An. v137,3. 316-323

Sub-Saharan DNA B-M60 in Sudan may indicate a link with ancient Egypt:
[quote:] "The Copt samples displayed a most interesting Y-profile, enough (as much as that of Gaalien in Sudan) to suggest that they actually represent a living record of the peopling of Egypt. The significant frequency of B-M60 in this group might be a relic of a history of colonization of southern Egypt probably by Nilotics in the early state formation,..
--Hassan 2008


Modern Egyptian population not necessarily representative of the ancients
:

"Cosmopolitan northern Egypt is less likely to have
a population representative of the core indigenous
population of the most ancient times“
– Keita 2005. History in Africa, 2005, 32(1).221-246

"Outside influence and admixture with extraregional groups primarily occurred in Lower Egypt—perhaps during
the later dynastic, but especially in Ptolmaic and Roman times (also Irish, 2006).”
-Irish 2009. Dental_affinities_of_the_C-group_inhabitants.. Ec Hi Rev


Nubians more related to ancient Egyptians-
:

"Studies of cranial morphology also support the use of a Nubian (Kerma) population for a comparison of the Dynastic period, as this group is likely to be more closely genetically related to the early Nile valley inhabitants than would be the Late Dynastic Egyptians, who likely experienced significant mixing with other Mediterranean populations (Zakrzewski, 2002). A craniometric study found the Naqada and Kerma populations to be morphologically similar (Keita, 1990). Given these and other prior studies suggesting continuity (Berry et al., 1967; Berry and Berry, 1972), and the lack of archaeological evidence of major migration or population replacement during the Neolithic transition in the Nile valley, we may cautiously interpret the dental health changes over time as primarily due to ecological, subsistence, and demographic changes experienced throughout the Nile valley region."
-Starling & Stock 2007. Dental indicators of health.. AJPA 134: 520-28-


Modern Egyptians a mixed population with European and Arab strands-not identical to ancients:
“Classical genetic studies show a high degree of genetic heterogeneity in the modern Egyptian population, suggesting that this population is descended from a mixture of African, Asian, and Arabian stock (Mahmoud et al. 1987; Hafez et al. 1986). Genetic heterogeneity within the Egyptian gene pool is also supported by more recent studies using autosomal STR markers (Klintschar et al. 1998; 2001)."
---Manni et al 2002. Y-chromosome analysis in Egypt, Hum Bio, 74:5, 645-658

Their overlap with other Egyptian samples (in
PC space, Fig. 2) suggests that although their morphology
is distinctive, the pattern does overlap with the other
time periods. These results therefore do not support the
Petrie concept of a \Dynastic race" (Petrie, 1939; Derry,
1956). Instead, the results suggest that the Egyptian
state was not the product of mass movement of populations
into the Egyptian Nile region, but rather that it was
the result of primarily indigenous development combined
with prolonged small-scale migration, potentially from
trade, military, or other contacts.

--Sonia R. Zakrzewski (2007)


"It is often assumed that Egyptian writing was invented under a stimulus of the
Mesopotamian writing system, developed in the late fourth millennium BC, that might
have come at the time of the short-lived Uruk Culture expansion into Syria. A variety of
artistic and architectural evidence for contact between Mesopotamia and late Predynastic
Egypt has been found, but none of it can be dated precisely in relation to Tomb U-j.
Moreover, **the Egyptian writing system is different from the Mesopotamian and must
have been developed independently.** The possibility of “stimulus diffusion” from
Mesopotamia remains, but the influence **cannot have gone beyond the transmission of an
idea.**

A second point *of contrast with Mesopotamia* is in uses of writing. The earliest
Egyptian writing consists of inscribed tags, ink notations on pottery, again principally
from the royal cemetery at Abydos, and hieroglyphs incorporated into artistic
compositions, of which the chief clear examples are such pieces as the *Narmer Palette,*
which is probably more than a century later than Tomb U-j. Thus, while administrative
uses of writing appear to have come at the beginning—examples from the Abydos tombs
include such notations as “produce of Lower Egypt”—the system was integrated fully
into pictorial representation. An intermediate, emblematic mode of representation in
which symbols, including hieroglyphs, were shown in action also evolved before the 1st
Dynasty. These three modes together formed a powerful artistic complex that endured as
long as Egyptian civilization."

--Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of
Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and
Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and
New York: Routledge, 1999)
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-01-2017, 02:14 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,434 posts, read 19,328,093 times
Reputation: 8502
Sorry, I think your old sources are obsolete in view of analysis from 2017.

Well, I am a bit tired of this topic, people like you simply believe what they want to believe because they have an agenda, rewriting history. Not only DNA, but also common sense tells me that ancient Egypt was a typical North African, Caucasian culture. Nowhere along the North African Mediterranean coast were there black people back then. Egypt was just another Eastern Mediterranean civilization. And there will be many more DNA and other advanced analysis confirming that. There is nothing racist about it, the only racist thing is hijacking another culture and changing their skin color in hindsight.

Go and look for some other, truly black African culture to boost your racial ego.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-01-2017, 02:25 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,937,902 times
Reputation: 3799
Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
Seems to have become an argument about the race of ancient Egyptians. It should be noted that Egypt is a nexus of three continents and people have been migrating through it for at least 50,000 years. .]
So those who deny that there was a "black" input into Egypt are just as wrong as those who place Egypt within the context of being a black society.

Strangely though its only the Afrocentrics who get condemned. Never those who pretend as if Egypt had no connection to African societies to the south.
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:
Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Africa
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top