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First of all, you guys kill me with this "black people get all these affirmative action rights", crap! What affirmative action rights? The one thing the US government attempted to do to correct the wrongs done to black people, affirmative action, .
Black people get something like a 400-600 point handicap on their SATs relative to white people, and a similar advantage in GPA. It is real whether you like it or not.
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Originally Posted by Troy Troy
was given out mostly to every other minority in America, the majority being white women! So please stop with the black people enjoy all this affirmative action rights lie! I know this is off topic, but I had to correct you on that one.
Gibberish. Women now greatly outdo men in overall college attendance, and next to Asian females, white females lead the league.
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Originally Posted by Troy Troy
Anyway, regarding black taking pride in the accomplishments of ancient Egypt, I for one have no problem accepting West African blacks from, say Ghana, had nothing to do with what was going on in Egypt.
Then we have no problem. Oh wait, you posted a ton more nonsense. (Sigh heavily here). Let's carry on.
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Originally Posted by Troy Troy
However, Scandinavian White had nothing to do with what was going on in Rome or Greece, yet they still take pride and their accomplishments.
I am not sure that this is true. I am an eighth Swedish and celebrate that heritage by reading Viking Sagas along with my Greco-Roman reading. Most Scandanavians who are aware of their history celebrate the Viking era.
That being said, the Scandanavian countries have constitutions and shared power governments, which are European things. So yes, they are sharing in a greater "white" heritage that goes back to Greece, Rome, and the Magna Carta in Britain. What Egyptian institutions or customs are African Americans claiming for West African other than "divine kingship," which is simply the most primitive form of government?
Also, many Scandanavians are migrants from Germanic tribes that fought both for and against Rome. Which West Africans fought for and against Egypt, again?
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Originally Posted by Troy Troy
Why? Because they were still white, therefore considered akin. Why are they considered related? Because they are all on Europe and they are all white!
Naw. This is just your sour grapes. The answer is a shared culture.
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Originally Posted by Troy Troy
Just like there are different types of white, Nordic, Mediterranean, Alpine, Etc., why is it so hard to believe there are different types of black? Not all black people are pitch black, with extremely nappy hair!
It is not. But as has already been explained dozens of times on this an other threads, the Ancient Egytptians were not largely black. There is more "black" now due to the Arab slave trade. In terms of genentics, limb lenghts, crania, dental studies, blood type, the Ancient Egyptians mostly clustered with modern Egytpians, and closer to the Levant and Europe than the rest of Africa.
This is because Egypt has been a cooridor of migration between three continents for at least 50,000 years.
None of this is disputed by anyone except afrocentrics who had no education and have never looked into the studies. I have posted the studies and their conclusions dozens of times on Citydata, perhaps even in this thread (I don't remember).
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Originally Posted by Troy Troy
Even African Americans have different looks, and no one would deny we're pretty much all related. Not all African Americans have big lips, pitch black skin, etc. It's not far-fetched that a dark-skinned group of people , who just happen to be in Africa, without the benefits of sunscreen, or skin cancer treatments, may in fact be just a lighter skinned type of black! (Negroid)
None of this has any relevance to the fact that Ancient Egyptians are largely the same as moderns.
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Originally Posted by Troy Troy
To act like the Sahara Desert was some sort of magic force field, completely stopping people from getting through it for thousands of years is complete silliness. People have and are still crossing the desert on camel back and on foot.
It is the most formidable desert in the world and an awesome natural barrier. The Egytpians used to refer to it as "the land of horrors." None of this has anything to do with the fact that the ancient Egyptians were much the same as the moderns.
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Originally Posted by Troy Troy
It's absolutely ridiculous to pretend more recognizably black looking people didn't migrate to Egypt.
No one said anything as of a sort. Ther were black people, just not nearly as many as those who were not black. THE SAME AS TODAY.
This is just silly invective. You aren't proving anything with posture.
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Originally Posted by Troy Troy
You're just going to pretend there aren't wall paintings of pitch black people?
There are a few. Most were not. There are old kingdom statues with blue and green eyes, and mummmies with blond and naturally red hair.
Some of those "pitch black" depiticions are slaves, and some are depicitons in symbolic blackness of gods. Some are cases of paint darkening over time. Some undoubtedly portray black Egytpians. But add them all up and they are not many compared with those that portray people who look like modern North Africans.
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Originally Posted by Troy Troy
You're going to pretend that for a hundred years a group of pitch Black Pharaohs literally ruled Egypt?
The 25th dynasty is an accepted fact, but it was at the end of things.
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Originally Posted by Troy Troy
That was proven in either Time or National Geographic just a few years ago. None of their people move to Egypt, or affected society or genealogy there for the hundred years they ruled?
Well sure. Towards the end there was a Nubian dynasty. Not sure I understand you point.
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Originally Posted by Troy Troy
I hate to say white people, because it's not all white people. It's not even all white historians, but some white historians and history buffs seem to want to claim every single positive thing done on this planet was done by white people.
We have a shared culture in Europe and the Americas based on constitutional governement, Latin and Greek languages and loan words, scientific inquiry, etc. that does not exist in Africa.
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Originally Posted by Troy Troy
Get over yourselves.
Physician, heal thyself.
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Originally Posted by Troy Troy
Other individuals and cultures contributed to the greatness of humanity.
No one has said otherwise. This does not make the Egyptians black.
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Originally Posted by Troy Troy
I've even heard some white historians claim that the Nubians and Sudanese are not actually negro. In other words, no relation to West Africans. These people are 3a.m. black, yet because they had a great civilization, once again some white historians try to distance them from West African blacks.
I never said that they were not black, so I will let this go.
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Originally Posted by Troy Troy
The reason why some afrocentrists take such a adamant stance on these issues is because of the obvious cover-ups that have been done buy some white historians regarding any history that may appear favorable to African Americans.
There is no cover up, but if it makes you feel good...
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Originally Posted by Troy Troy
That's why we're just now learning in 2016 about three black women helping to get the NASA project off the ground. That should have been taught in school on both a black history and women's history level. Yet, it was completely marginalized.
It is a nice feel-good story, but not exactly the truth. The women depicted in that movie were real, but before computers, hundreds upon hundreds of people in teams calculated, checked and re-checked numbers. NASA was largely built by white men, and it would have existed with or without these women.
This is the danger from learning history from movies. Nor does any of it have to do with Egypt. But much respect to them. They were real and very good at what they did.
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Originally Posted by Troy Troy
I bet no one within a 5-mile radius of where you're currently located is aware the little, black island of Haiti defeated both the French and the British Army's, at their peak of power! This list can go on and on. I get it, it was not in the best interest of slave owners to tell their slaves good things about themselves to make them question why they're putting up with slavery in the first place. So, there was massive cover-ups and only someone in complete denial, or with no knowledge of American History, would deny that.
I have forgotten more about history than you will ever know and know all about Toussaint L'Oveture. Again, it is not really all that important to anyone except black people. It is not like he defeated Napolean or Wellington personally, or even Davout or Messena. He won in a side theater and Haiti has been a poor, suffering nation dependent on international aid ever since. People don't know it because there are far bigger and more fascinating things to study.
Nor has it anything to do with Egypt.
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Originally Posted by Troy Troy
For those who think it doesn't matter, and no one should be focused on the color of the people who impacted history, you're fooling yourself. That's like people who say Jesus's skin color doesn't matter. Well, if it doesn't matter why do they always make him white? Most westerners historically considered Jesus to be the god or at a minimum the son of the god of the universe, so yeah, his appearing in the likeness of your race would have distinct psychological benefits. Yes, in a perfect world it would be nice to be color blind to all things. However, African Americans have had their collective self esteems crushed for many years. Part of any psychological healing comes from knowing how great you are, what you have already accomplished, and what you can yet still accomplish.
Jesus has nothing to do with Egypt.
It is very nice that you want to find black heros, and yes, you can find some in Ancient Egypt, such as Taharka. It does not change the fact that Egypt has been a mixed race society, very closely related to modern North Afircans, the Levant, and Europe and less so to Sub-Saharan Africa, for 50,000 years.
Dozens more studies out there, but here are some that are very easy to undertand with clear conclusions, along with a few quotes. Note especially the quote from Keita, who is often held up by Afrocentrists (who do not understand what they are hearing) as a "black Egypt" guy.
Mitochondrial DNA Sequence Diversity in a Sedentary Population from Egypt
A. Stevanovitch Mitochondrial DNA Sequence Diversity in a Sedentary Population from Egypt - Stevanovitch - 2004 - Annals of Human Genetics - Wiley Online Library Mitochondrial genetic data from North Africa are documented by two groups of populations: one composed of populations of the Nile Valley, and the other by populations of the Maghreb. The Nile Valley has been shown to be a migration corridor with populations connected by gene flow (Krings et al. 1999), and phylogeographical analysis of mitochondrial lineages of populations from the Maghreb suggests that modern humans appeared from the Near East following at least two migrations around 50 000 years and 10 000 years ago. A possible migration from Europe may also have occurred during the Neolithic period (Macaulay et al. 1999).
Population history of north Africa: evidence from classical genetic markers.- Bosch Population history of North Africa: Evidence from classical genetic markers
After an intensive bibliographic search, we compiled all the available data on allele frequencies for classical genetic polymorphisms referring to North African populations and synthesized the data in an attempt to reconstruct the populations' demographic history using two complementary methods: (1) principal components analysis and (2) genetic distances represented by neighbor-joining trees. In both analyses the main feature of the genetic landscape in northern Africa is an east-west pattern of variation pointing to the differentiation between the Berber and Arab population groups of the northwest and the populations of Libya and Egypt. Moreover, Libya and Egypt show the smallest genetic distances with the European populations, including the Iberian Peninsula. The most plausible interpretation of these results is that, although demic diffusion during the Neolithic could explain the genetic similarity between northeast Africa and Europe by a parallel process of gene flow from the Near East, a Mesolithic (or older) differentiation of the populations in the northwestern regions with later limited gene flow is needed to understand the genetic picture. The most isolated groups (Mauritanians, Tuaregs, and south Algerian Berbers) were the most differentiated and, although no clear structure can be discerned among the different Arab- and Berber-speaking groups, Arab speakers as a whole are closer to Egyptians and Libyans. By contrast, the genetic contribution of sub-Saharan Africa appears to be small.
Near eastern neolithic genetic input in a small oasis of the Egyptian Western Desert.
M Kujanova 2009 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19425100 Notwithstanding signs of expected genetic drift, we still found clear genetic evidence of a strong Near Eastern input that can be dated into the Neolithic. This is revealed by high frequencies and high internal variability of several mtDNA lineages from haplogroup T. The whole genome sequencing strategy and molecular dating allowed us to detect the accumulation of local mtDNA diversity to 5,138 +/- 3,633 YBP. Similarly, theY-chromosome gene pool reveals high frequencies of the Near Eastern J1
The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: Evidence for Bidirectional Corridors of Human Migrations JR LUIS http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182266/
"Paleoanthropological evidence indicates that both the Levantine corridor and the Horn of Africa served, repeatedly, as migratory corridors between Africa and Eurasia. We have begun investigating the roles of these passageways in bidirectional migrations of anatomically modern humans, by analyzing 45 informative biallelic markers as well as 10 microsatellite loci on the nonrecombining region of the Y chromosome (NRY) in 121 and 147 extant males from Oman and northern Egypt, respectively. The present study uncovers three important points concerning these demic movements: (1)The E3b1-M78 and E3b3-M123 lineages, as well as the R1*-M173 lineages, mark gene flow between Egypt and the Levant during the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic. (2) In contrast, the Horn of Africa appears to be of minor importance in the human migratory movements between Africa and Eurasia represented by these chromosomes, an observation based on the frequency distributions of E3b*-M35 (no known downstream mutations) and M173. (3) The areal diffusion patterns of G-M201, J-12f2, the derivative M173 haplogroups, and M2 suggest more recent genetic associations between the Middle East and Africa, involving the Levantine corridor and/or Arab slave routes. Affinities to African groups were also evaluated by determining the NRY haplogroup composition in 434 samples from seven sub-Saharan African populations. Oman and Egypt’s NRY frequency distributions appear to be much more similar to those of the Middle East than to any sub-Saharan African population, suggesting a much larger Eurasian genetic component"
"Synthetic maps of Africa".The History and Geography of Human Genes. Cavalli-Sforza. http://books.google.com/books?id=FrwNcwKaUKoC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepag e&q&f=false
(NOTE: LINK WILL NOT TAKE YOU TO THE EXACT PAGES) The gradient is clearly rooted in the relatively ancient presence of Caucasoids in a Northern strip along the Mediterranean and in additions from West Asia, which are visible in the second and third components....the C gene shows a clear North-South gradient, being frequent amongst Caucasoids and almost absent in sub-Sahara Africa. THERE ARE PEAKS IN EGYPT AND IN NORTHWESTERN AFRICA
Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations
Henn Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations
We identify a gradient of likely autochthonous Maghrebi ancestry that increases from east to west across northern Africa; this ancestry is likely derived from “back-to-Africa” gene flow more than 12,000 years ago (ya), prior to the Holocene. The indigenous North African ancestry is more frequent in populations with historical Berber ethnicity. In most North African populations we also see substantial shared ancestry with the Near East, and to a lesser extent sub-Saharan Africa and Europe.
Y-chromosome analysis in Egypt suggests a genetic regional continuity in northeastern Africa Manni http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12495079 "In conclusion, our analyses have identified a genetic regional continuity between the northeastern part of Africa (Egypt), the Middle East, and southern Europe. In agreement with the ethnohistorical connections between NE Africa and the Middle East, the genetic data confirm that Egypt, occupying an intermediate position along these routes, has been an important contact zone between the three continents."
The emerging tree of West Eurasian mtDNAs: a synthesis of control-region sequences and RFLPs.
Macaulay http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1377722/
We show that the main indigenous North African cluster is a sister group to the most ancient cluster of European mtDNAs, from which it diverged approximately 50,000 years ago.
Mitochondrial DNA structure in North Africa reveals a genetic discontinuity in the Nile
Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid Mitochondrial DNA structure in North Africa reveals a genetic discontinuity in the Nile Valley - Fadhlaoui-Zid - 2011 - American Journal of Physical Anthropology - Wiley Online Library
Human population movements in North Africa have been mostly restricted to an east-west direction due to the geographical barriers imposed by the Sahara Desert and the Mediterranean Sea. Although these barriers have not completely impeded human migrations, genetic studies have shown that an east-west genetic gradient exists. However, the lack of genetic information of certain geographical areas and the focus of some studies in parts of the North African landscape have limited the global view of the genetic pool of North African populations. To provide a global view of the North African genetic landscape and population structure, we have analyzed ∼2,300 North African mitochondrial DNA lineages (including 269 new sequences from Libya, in the first mtDNA study of the general Libyan population). Our results show a clinal distribution of certain haplogroups, some of them more frequent in Western (H, HV0, L1b, L3b, U6) or Eastern populations (L0a, R0a, N1b, I, J) that might be the result of human migrations from the Middle East, sub-Saharan Africa, and Europe
North African Populations Carry the Signature of Admixture with Neandertals Federico Sánchez-Quinto North African Populations Carry the Signature of Admixture with Neandertals The results of the f4 ancestry ratio test (Table 2 and Table S1) show that North African populations vary in the percentage of Neandertal inferred admixture, primarily depending on the amount of European or Near Eastern ancestry they present (Table 1). Populations like North Morocco and Egypt, with the highest European and Near Eastern component (~40%), have also the highest amount of Neandertal ancestry (~60–70%)....Furthermore, the Neandertal's genetic signal is higher in populations with a local, pre-Neolithic North African ancestry. Therefore, the detected ancient admixture is not due to recent Near Eastern or European migrations.
Who were the ancient Egyptians? Dental affinities among Neolithic through postdynastic peoples
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16331657
JD IRISH 2006
Qualitative and quantitative methods are employed to describe and compare up to 36 dental morphological variants in 15 Neolithic through Roman-period Egyptian samples. Trait frequencies are determined, and phenetic affinities are calculated using the mean measure of divergence and Mahalanobis D2 statistics for discrete traits; the most important traits in generating this intersample variation are identified with correspondence analysis. Assuming that the samples are representative of the populations from which they derive, and that phenetic similarity provides an estimate of genetic relatedness, these affinities are suggestive of overall population continuity. That is, other than a few outliers exhibiting extreme frequencies of nine influential traits, the dental samples appear to be largely homogenous and can be characterized as having morphologically simple, mass-reduced teeth. These findings are contrasted with those resulting from previous skeletal and other studies, and are used to appraise the viability of five Egyptian peopling scenarios. Specifically, affinities among the 15 time-successive samples suggest that: 1) there may be a connection between Neolithic and subsequent predynastic Egyptians, 2) predynastic Badarian and Naqada peoples may be closely related, 3) the dynastic period is likely an indigenous continuation of the Naqada culture, 4) there is support for overall biological uniformity through the dynastic period, and 5) this uniformity may continue into postdynastic times.
Research on ancient DNA in the Near East Mateusz Baca Research on ancient DNA in the Near East | Martyna Molak - Academia.edu To obtain the frequencies of these mtDNA types, amplification of the HVRI region and three RFLP markers was conducted. The authors succeeded in analysing RFLP markers in 34 samples and HVRI sequences in 18 of the samples. Both populations, ancient and contemporary, fit the north-south clinal distribution of “southern” and “northern” mtDNA types (Graver et al. 2001). However, significant differences were found between these populations. Based on an increased frequency of HpaI 3592 (+) haplotypes in the contemporary Dakhlehian population, the authors suggested that, since Roman times, gene flow from the Sub-Saharan region has affected gene frequencies of individuals from the oasis.
mtDNA analysis in ancient Nubians supports the existence of gene flow between sub-Sahara and North Africa in the Nile valley C. Fox, 1997
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9158841 The Hpal (np3,592) mitochondrial DNA marker is a selectively neutral mutation that is very common in sub-Saharan Africa and is almost absent in North African and European populations. It has been screened in a Meroitic sample from ancient Nubia through PCR amplification and posterior enzyme digestion, to evaluate the sub-Saharan genetic influences in this population. From 29 individuals analysed, only 15 yield positive amplifications, four of them (26·7%) displaying the sub-Saharan African marker. Hpa I (np3,592) marker is present in the sub-Saharan populations at a frequency of 68·7 on average. Thus, the frequency of genes from this area in the Merotic Nubian population can be estimated at around 39% (with a confidence interval from 22% to 55%). The frequency obtained fits in a south-north decreasing gradient of Hpa I (np3,592) along the African continent. Results suggest that morphological changes observed historically in the Nubian populations are more likely to be due to the existence of south-north gene flow through the Nile Valley than to in-situ evolution.
mtDNA Analysis of Nile River Valley Populations: A Genetic Corridor or a Barrier to Migration? Krings http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10090902 To assess the extent to which the Nile River Valley has been a corridor for human migrations between Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa, we analyzed mtDNA variation in 224 individuals from various locations along the river. Sequences of the first hypervariable segment (HV1) of the mtDNA control region and a polymorphic HpaI site at position 3592 allowed us to designate each mtDNA as being of “northern” or “southern” affiliation. Proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the southern Sudan. At slowly evolving sites within HV1, northern-mtDNA diversity was highest in Egypt and lowest in the southern Sudan, and southern-mtDNA diversity was highest in the southern Sudan and lowest in Egypt, indicating that migrations had occurred bidirectionally along the Nile River Valley. Egypt and Nubia have low and similar amounts of divergence for both mtDNA types, which is consistent with historical evidence for long-term interactions between Egypt and Nubia. Spatial autocorrelation analysis demonstrates a smooth gradient of decreasing genetic similarity of mtDNA types as geographic distance between sampling localities increases, strongly suggesting gene flow along the Nile, with no evident barriers. We conclude that these migrations probably occurred within the past few hundred to few thousand years and that the migration from north to south was either earlier or lesser in the extent of gene flow than the migration from south to north.
A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...tool=pmcentrez ARREDI Et. Al
...Since the estimates of the times to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCAs) of the most common haplogroups are quite recent, we suggest that the North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation is largely of Neolithic origin. Thus, we propose that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic–speaking pastoralists from the Middle East.
The mtDNA legacy of the Levantine early Upper Palaeolithic in Africa Olivieri A
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/314/5806/1767.abstract
Sequencing of 81 entire human mitochondrial DNAs (mtDNAs) belonging to haplogroups M1 and U6 reveals that these predominantly North African clades arose in southwestern Asia and moved together to Africa about 40,000 to 45,000 years ago. Their arrival temporally overlaps with the event(s) that led to the peopling of Europe by modern humans and was most likely the result of the same change in climate conditions that allowed humans to enter the Levant, opening the way to the colonization of both Europe and North Africa
www(The biomedical scientists November 2003). .cs.oswego.edu/~schofield/news/nefertiti.pdf
In the case of the skull believed by a number of experts to be Nefertiti, digital X-rays gave Evison and Schofield an image of the skull inside of the mummy...this particular skull could be classified as Indo-European.
http://www.readcube.com/articles/10.1002/ajpa.1330360603
(Brace, 1993)
"The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia... ...Oceania, or the New World. Adjacent people in the Nile valley show similarities in trivial traits in an unbroken series from the delta in the north southward through Nubia and all the way to Somalia at the equator. At the same time, the gradient in skin color and body proportions suggests long-term adaptive response to selective forces appropriate to the latitude where they occur... ...We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted,Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well." The questionable contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European craniofacial form http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1325007/ BRACE
The assessment of prehistoric and recent human craniofacial dimensions supports the picture documented by genetics that the extension of Neolithic agriculture from the Near East westward to Europe and across North Africa was accomplished by a process of demic diffusion (11–15)....
....When the samples used in Fig. 1 are compared by the use of canonical variate plots as in Fig. 2, the seperateness of the Niger-Congo speakers is again quite clear. Interestingly enough, however, the small Natufian sample falls between the Niger-Congo group and the other samples used. Fig 2 shows the plot produced by the first two canonical variates, but the same thing happens when canonical variates 1 and 3 (not shown here) are used. This placement suggests that there may have been a Sub-Saharan African element in the make-up of the Natufians (the putative ancestors of the subsequent Neolithic), although in this particular test there is no such evident presence in the North African or Egyptian samples. As shown in Fig. 1, the Somalis and the Egyptian Bronze Age sample from Naquada may also have a hint of a Sub-Saharan African component. That was not borne out in the canonical variate plot (Fig 2.), and there was no evidence of such an involvement in the Algerian Neolithic (Gambetta) sample.
Professor P. F. Ceccaldi, with a research team behind him, studied some hairs which were removed from the mummy's scalp. Ramesses II was 90 years-old when he died, and his hair had turned white. Ceccaldi determined that the reddish-yellow colour of the mummy's hair had been brought about by its being dyed with a dilute henna solution; it proved to be an example of the cosmetic attentions of the embalmers. However, traces of the hair's original colour (in youth), remain in the roots, even into advanced old age. Microscopic examinations proved that the hair roots contained traces of natural red pigments, and that therefore, during his youth, Ramesses II had been red-haired. It was concluded that these red pigments did not result from the hair somehow fading, or otherwise altering post-mortem, but did indeed represent Ramesses' natural hair colour. Ceccaldi also studied a cross-section of the hairs, and he determined from their oval shape, that Ramesses had been "cymotrich" (wavy-haired). Finally, he stated that such a combination of features showed that Ramesses had been a "leucoderm" (white-skinned person). [Balout, et al. (1985) 254-257.]
Scandinavian people (and other northern Europeans) don't claim ancestry or even cultural decent from Greece and Rome apart from being violently converted to the religion of Rome (Christianity).
The Scandinavians' romantic nationalist era largely rejected the "classical" associations common in southern Europe during the renaissance and enlightenment periods and praised their own indigenous folk heritage and medieval heritage, particularly imagery and values stemming from the Viking age and folk culture.
The whole Greco-Roman fetish is largely contained to those countries that were colonized by them during the Roman Empire.
That is not to say that classical influence did not touch Scandinavia, but the national geist of those countries consider it an influence of foreign origin. There is no 'Pan-European heritage' paradigm in Europe quite like the Pan-African paradigm that exists in the minds of some Americans.
Last edited by ABQConvict; 11-06-2017 at 10:27 AM..
Black doesn't really refer to skin color, but to sub-Saharan, negroid ancestry. I mean, there are no black people, anyway, only brown people. According to your view some really dark Portuguese fishermen are black people whereas some people in West Africa are not as black because they are not as dark-skinned as those Portuguese fishermen.
According to several gene studies, ancient Nubians were not black as in sub-Saharan/negroid.
Although I am white, I don't claim anything Roman. If anything, European culture is based on Greek culture to a large extent (the Romans themselves also borrowed a whole lot from the Greeks). But it was their cultural achievements, we just imported and adopted them in the rest of Europe.
However, genetically I am probably a lot closer to the Greeks than a Nigerian/African-American is to an ancient Egyptian. The reason for that is that Europe was settled rather late, Europeans are thus much more similar to each other than Africans are. Another reason is of course that Africa is much bigger. The size and time frame lead to more ethnic separation.
What we (Europeans and Africans) have in common, though, are the migrations from West Asia, with all the consequences including agriculture.
Okay, let's be clear, I know the difference between someone having dark skin and someone being negroid. Many East Indians have skin darker than African Americans, yet I don't think for a second they are negroid. So, I do understand the concept of black and negroid not being one and the same.
As far as these Gene studies, and declaring Nubians, ancient Egyptians, and any other successful race of people not being black, it's always some non-black person administering them. So, if Nubians weren't black, then what were they? Let me guess, dark white people. Am I right? Of course that's the answer. The moment an ancient civilization has the wheel, they are claimed by white people, no matter what their skin color or any other phenotype attributes they have. It's just ridiculous really, and a lot of black people see through this obvious agenda.
1. This is common among those that claim "white American" ancestry and it is just as stupid as what some "black Americans/African-Americans" do.
2. Europeans do no such thing, those that claim "white American" ancestry and are the descendants of Europeans are not Europeans and no real European would consider them as such. You will never see a French person taking pride in British accomplishments or a Britain taking pride in French accomplishments. Substitute for any two European ethnicity.
3. Real Africans don't take pride in the history of Egypt to my knowledge unless they are from Egypt.
4. White Americans and Black Americans are pseudo Europeans and pseudo Africans and aren't considered European or African by real Europeans and real Africans.
That's a reasonable assertion, that we as Americans claim the accomplishments of our entire race, which on the surface doesn't make much sense. The argument I would make to this logic however is while Europeans may not claim all the accomplishments done by other Europeans, American whites do. Unfortunately as an American those are the rules I live under. White Americans, including historians, film and TV producers, authors, Etc do claim all the accomplishments done by all Europeans under the white man unbrella. So, it should not surprise you if blacks attempt to do the same thing.
Why do black people need a collective self-esteem?
I don't have a collective white self-esteem, but one based on my own personal properties and achievements. When you are from a country that caused two world wars and the Holocaust, it is recommendable not to rely on your ethnic group's achievements
I'm assuming you're not an American, so trying to discuss why African Americans have a collective self-esteem is almost futile. You clearly don't have much of a reference as to the things that have gone on here, and still going to a lesser extent. If you truly understood the things done in this country, you would understand that collectively black Americans have low self-esteem, and you would understand the reasons why. It's only been in the last 50 years we could even drink from the same water fountain as whites. Our whole history in this country has been one of being made to feel lower, and sometimes at the level of an animal. Read a history book on black American history, and then get back to me.
Black people get something like a 400-600 point handicap on their SATs relative to white people, and a similar advantage in GPA. It is real whether you like it or not.
Gibberish. Women now greatly outdo men in overall college attendance, and next to Asian females, white females lead the league.
Then we have no problem. Oh wait, you posted a ton more nonsense. (Sigh heavily here). Let's carry on.
I am not sure that this is true. I am an eighth Swedish and celebrate that heritage by reading Viking Sagas along with my Greco-Roman reading. Most Scandanavians who are aware of their history celebrate the Viking era.
That being said, the Scandanavian countries have constitutions and shared power governments, which are European things. So yes, they are sharing in a greater "white" heritage that goes back to Greece, Rome, and the Magna Carta in Britain. What Egyptian institutions or customs are African Americans claiming for West African other than "divine kingship," which is simply the most primitive form of government?
Also, many Scandanavians are migrants from Germanic tribes that fought both for and against Rome. Which West Africans fought for and against Egypt, again?
Naw. This is just your sour grapes. The answer is a shared culture.
It is not. But as has already been explained dozens of times on this an other threads, the Ancient Egytptians were not largely black. There is more "black" now due to the Arab slave trade. In terms of genentics, limb lenghts, crania, dental studies, blood type, the Ancient Egyptians mostly clustered with modern Egytpians, and closer to the Levant and Europe than the rest of Africa.
This is because Egypt has been a cooridor of migration between three continents for at least 50,000 years.
None of this is disputed by anyone except afrocentrics who had no education and have never looked into the studies. I have posted the studies and their conclusions dozens of times on Citydata, perhaps even in this thread (I don't remember).
None of this has any relevance to the fact that Ancient Egyptians are largely the same as moderns.
It is the most formidable desert in the world and an awesome natural barrier. The Egytpians used to refer to it as "the land of horrors." None of this has anything to do with the fact that the ancient Egyptians were much the same as the moderns.
No one said anything as of a sort. Ther were black people, just not nearly as many as those who were not black. THE SAME AS TODAY.
This is just silly invective. You aren't proving anything with posture.
There are a few. Most were not. There are old kingdom statues with blue and green eyes, and mummmies with blond and naturally red hair.
Some of those "pitch black" depiticions are slaves, and some are depicitons in symbolic blackness of gods. Some are cases of paint darkening over time. Some undoubtedly portray black Egytpians. But add them all up and they are not many compared with those that portray people who look like modern North Africans.
The 25th dynasty is an accepted fact, but it was at the end of things.
Well sure. Towards the end there was a Nubian dynasty. Not sure I understand you point.
We have a shared culture in Europe and the Americas based on constitutional governement, Latin and Greek languages and loan words, scientific inquiry, etc. that does not exist in Africa.
Physician, heal thyself.
No one has said otherwise. This does not make the Egyptians black.
I never said that they were not black, so I will let this go.
There is no cover up, but if it makes you feel good...
It is a nice feel-good story, but not exactly the truth. The women depicted in that movie were real, but before computers, hundreds upon hundreds of people in teams calculated, checked and re-checked numbers. NASA was largely built by white men, and it would have existed with or without these women.
This is the danger from learning history from movies. Nor does any of it have to do with Egypt. But much respect to them. They were real and very good at what they did.
I have forgotten more about history than you will ever know and know all about Toussaint L'Oveture. Again, it is not really all that important to anyone except black people. It is not like he defeated Napolean or Wellington personally, or even Davout or Messena. He won in a side theater and Haiti has been a poor, suffering nation dependent on international aid ever since. People don't know it because there are far bigger and more fascinating things to study.
Nor has it anything to do with Egypt.
Jesus has nothing to do with Egypt.
It is very nice that you want to find black heros, and yes, you can find some in Ancient Egypt, such as Taharka. It does not change the fact that Egypt has been a mixed race society, very closely related to modern North Afircans, the Levant, and Europe and less so to Sub-Saharan Africa, for 50,000 years.
Dozens more studies out there, but here are some that are very easy to undertand with clear conclusions, along with a few quotes. Note especially the quote from Keita, who is often held up by Afrocentrists (who do not understand what they are hearing) as a "black Egypt" guy.
Mitochondrial DNA Sequence Diversity in a Sedentary Population from Egypt
A. Stevanovitch Mitochondrial DNA Sequence Diversity in a Sedentary Population from Egypt - Stevanovitch - 2004 - Annals of Human Genetics - Wiley Online Library Mitochondrial genetic data from North Africa are documented by two groups of populations: one composed of populations of the Nile Valley, and the other by populations of the Maghreb. The Nile Valley has been shown to be a migration corridor with populations connected by gene flow (Krings et al. 1999), and phylogeographical analysis of mitochondrial lineages of populations from the Maghreb suggests that modern humans appeared from the Near East following at least two migrations around 50 000 years and 10 000 years ago. A possible migration from Europe may also have occurred during the Neolithic period (Macaulay et al. 1999).
Population history of north Africa: evidence from classical genetic markers.- Bosch Population history of North Africa: Evidence from classical genetic markers
After an intensive bibliographic search, we compiled all the available data on allele frequencies for classical genetic polymorphisms referring to North African populations and synthesized the data in an attempt to reconstruct the populations' demographic history using two complementary methods: (1) principal components analysis and (2) genetic distances represented by neighbor-joining trees. In both analyses the main feature of the genetic landscape in northern Africa is an east-west pattern of variation pointing to the differentiation between the Berber and Arab population groups of the northwest and the populations of Libya and Egypt. Moreover, Libya and Egypt show the smallest genetic distances with the European populations, including the Iberian Peninsula. The most plausible interpretation of these results is that, although demic diffusion during the Neolithic could explain the genetic similarity between northeast Africa and Europe by a parallel process of gene flow from the Near East, a Mesolithic (or older) differentiation of the populations in the northwestern regions with later limited gene flow is needed to understand the genetic picture. The most isolated groups (Mauritanians, Tuaregs, and south Algerian Berbers) were the most differentiated and, although no clear structure can be discerned among the different Arab- and Berber-speaking groups, Arab speakers as a whole are closer to Egyptians and Libyans. By contrast, the genetic contribution of sub-Saharan Africa appears to be small.
Near eastern neolithic genetic input in a small oasis of the Egyptian Western Desert.
M Kujanova 2009 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19425100 Notwithstanding signs of expected genetic drift, we still found clear genetic evidence of a strong Near Eastern input that can be dated into the Neolithic. This is revealed by high frequencies and high internal variability of several mtDNA lineages from haplogroup T. The whole genome sequencing strategy and molecular dating allowed us to detect the accumulation of local mtDNA diversity to 5,138 +/- 3,633 YBP. Similarly, theY-chromosome gene pool reveals high frequencies of the Near Eastern J1
The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: Evidence for Bidirectional Corridors of Human Migrations JR LUIS http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182266/
"Paleoanthropological evidence indicates that both the Levantine corridor and the Horn of Africa served, repeatedly, as migratory corridors between Africa and Eurasia. We have begun investigating the roles of these passageways in bidirectional migrations of anatomically modern humans, by analyzing 45 informative biallelic markers as well as 10 microsatellite loci on the nonrecombining region of the Y chromosome (NRY) in 121 and 147 extant males from Oman and northern Egypt, respectively. The present study uncovers three important points concerning these demic movements: (1)The E3b1-M78 and E3b3-M123 lineages, as well as the R1*-M173 lineages, mark gene flow between Egypt and the Levant during the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic. (2) In contrast, the Horn of Africa appears to be of minor importance in the human migratory movements between Africa and Eurasia represented by these chromosomes, an observation based on the frequency distributions of E3b*-M35 (no known downstream mutations) and M173. (3) The areal diffusion patterns of G-M201, J-12f2, the derivative M173 haplogroups, and M2 suggest more recent genetic associations between the Middle East and Africa, involving the Levantine corridor and/or Arab slave routes. Affinities to African groups were also evaluated by determining the NRY haplogroup composition in 434 samples from seven sub-Saharan African populations. Oman and Egypt’s NRY frequency distributions appear to be much more similar to those of the Middle East than to any sub-Saharan African population, suggesting a much larger Eurasian genetic component"
"Synthetic maps of Africa".The History and Geography of Human Genes. Cavalli-Sforza. http://books.google.com/books?id=FrwNcwKaUKoC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepag e&q&f=false
(NOTE: LINK WILL NOT TAKE YOU TO THE EXACT PAGES) The gradient is clearly rooted in the relatively ancient presence of Caucasoids in a Northern strip along the Mediterranean and in additions from West Asia, which are visible in the second and third components....the C gene shows a clear North-South gradient, being frequent amongst Caucasoids and almost absent in sub-Sahara Africa. THERE ARE PEAKS IN EGYPT AND IN NORTHWESTERN AFRICA
Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations
Henn Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations
We identify a gradient of likely autochthonous Maghrebi ancestry that increases from east to west across northern Africa; this ancestry is likely derived from “back-to-Africa” gene flow more than 12,000 years ago (ya), prior to the Holocene. The indigenous North African ancestry is more frequent in populations with historical Berber ethnicity. In most North African populations we also see substantial shared ancestry with the Near East, and to a lesser extent sub-Saharan Africa and Europe.
Y-chromosome analysis in Egypt suggests a genetic regional continuity in northeastern Africa Manni http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12495079 "In conclusion, our analyses have identified a genetic regional continuity between the northeastern part of Africa (Egypt), the Middle East, and southern Europe. In agreement with the ethnohistorical connections between NE Africa and the Middle East, the genetic data confirm that Egypt, occupying an intermediate position along these routes, has been an important contact zone between the three continents."
The emerging tree of West Eurasian mtDNAs: a synthesis of control-region sequences and RFLPs.
Macaulay http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1377722/
We show that the main indigenous North African cluster is a sister group to the most ancient cluster of European mtDNAs, from which it diverged approximately 50,000 years ago.
Mitochondrial DNA structure in North Africa reveals a genetic discontinuity in the Nile
Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid Mitochondrial DNA structure in North Africa reveals a genetic discontinuity in the Nile Valley - Fadhlaoui-Zid - 2011 - American Journal of Physical Anthropology - Wiley Online Library
Human population movements in North Africa have been mostly restricted to an east-west direction due to the geographical barriers imposed by the Sahara Desert and the Mediterranean Sea. Although these barriers have not completely impeded human migrations, genetic studies have shown that an east-west genetic gradient exists. However, the lack of genetic information of certain geographical areas and the focus of some studies in parts of the North African landscape have limited the global view of the genetic pool of North African populations. To provide a global view of the North African genetic landscape and population structure, we have analyzed ∼2,300 North African mitochondrial DNA lineages (including 269 new sequences from Libya, in the first mtDNA study of the general Libyan population). Our results show a clinal distribution of certain haplogroups, some of them more frequent in Western (H, HV0, L1b, L3b, U6) or Eastern populations (L0a, R0a, N1b, I, J) that might be the result of human migrations from the Middle East, sub-Saharan Africa, and Europe
North African Populations Carry the Signature of Admixture with Neandertals Federico Sánchez-Quinto North African Populations Carry the Signature of Admixture with Neandertals The results of the f4 ancestry ratio test (Table 2 and Table S1) show that North African populations vary in the percentage of Neandertal inferred admixture, primarily depending on the amount of European or Near Eastern ancestry they present (Table 1). Populations like North Morocco and Egypt, with the highest European and Near Eastern component (~40%), have also the highest amount of Neandertal ancestry (~60–70%)....Furthermore, the Neandertal's genetic signal is higher in populations with a local, pre-Neolithic North African ancestry. Therefore, the detected ancient admixture is not due to recent Near Eastern or European migrations.
Who were the ancient Egyptians? Dental affinities among Neolithic through postdynastic peoples
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16331657
JD IRISH 2006
Qualitative and quantitative methods are employed to describe and compare up to 36 dental morphological variants in 15 Neolithic through Roman-period Egyptian samples. Trait frequencies are determined, and phenetic affinities are calculated using the mean measure of divergence and Mahalanobis D2 statistics for discrete traits; the most important traits in generating this intersample variation are identified with correspondence analysis. Assuming that the samples are representative of the populations from which they derive, and that phenetic similarity provides an estimate of genetic relatedness, these affinities are suggestive of overall population continuity. That is, other than a few outliers exhibiting extreme frequencies of nine influential traits, the dental samples appear to be largely homogenous and can be characterized as having morphologically simple, mass-reduced teeth. These findings are contrasted with those resulting from previous skeletal and other studies, and are used to appraise the viability of five Egyptian peopling scenarios. Specifically, affinities among the 15 time-successive samples suggest that: 1) there may be a connection between Neolithic and subsequent predynastic Egyptians, 2) predynastic Badarian and Naqada peoples may be closely related, 3) the dynastic period is likely an indigenous continuation of the Naqada culture, 4) there is support for overall biological uniformity through the dynastic period, and 5) this uniformity may continue into postdynastic times.
Research on ancient DNA in the Near East Mateusz Baca Research on ancient DNA in the Near East | Martyna Molak - Academia.edu To obtain the frequencies of these mtDNA types, amplification of the HVRI region and three RFLP markers was conducted. The authors succeeded in analysing RFLP markers in 34 samples and HVRI sequences in 18 of the samples. Both populations, ancient and contemporary, fit the north-south clinal distribution of “southern” and “northern” mtDNA types (Graver et al. 2001). However, significant differences were found between these populations. Based on an increased frequency of HpaI 3592 (+) haplotypes in the contemporary Dakhlehian population, the authors suggested that, since Roman times, gene flow from the Sub-Saharan region has affected gene frequencies of individuals from the oasis.
mtDNA analysis in ancient Nubians supports the existence of gene flow between sub-Sahara and North Africa in the Nile valley C. Fox, 1997
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9158841 The Hpal (np3,592) mitochondrial DNA marker is a selectively neutral mutation that is very common in sub-Saharan Africa and is almost absent in North African and European populations. It has been screened in a Meroitic sample from ancient Nubia through PCR amplification and posterior enzyme digestion, to evaluate the sub-Saharan genetic influences in this population. From 29 individuals analysed, only 15 yield positive amplifications, four of them (26·7%) displaying the sub-Saharan African marker. Hpa I (np3,592) marker is present in the sub-Saharan populations at a frequency of 68·7 on average. Thus, the frequency of genes from this area in the Merotic Nubian population can be estimated at around 39% (with a confidence interval from 22% to 55%). The frequency obtained fits in a south-north decreasing gradient of Hpa I (np3,592) along the African continent. Results suggest that morphological changes observed historically in the Nubian populations are more likely to be due to the existence of south-north gene flow through the Nile Valley than to in-situ evolution.
mtDNA Analysis of Nile River Valley Populations: A Genetic Corridor or a Barrier to Migration? Krings http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10090902 To assess the extent to which the Nile River Valley has been a corridor for human migrations between Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa, we analyzed mtDNA variation in 224 individuals from various locations along the river. Sequences of the first hypervariable segment (HV1) of the mtDNA control region and a polymorphic HpaI site at position 3592 allowed us to designate each mtDNA as being of “northern” or “southern” affiliation. Proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the southern Sudan. At slowly evolving sites within HV1, northern-mtDNA diversity was highest in Egypt and lowest in the southern Sudan, and southern-mtDNA diversity was highest in the southern Sudan and lowest in Egypt, indicating that migrations had occurred bidirectionally along the Nile River Valley. Egypt and Nubia have low and similar amounts of divergence for both mtDNA types, which is consistent with historical evidence for long-term interactions between Egypt and Nubia. Spatial autocorrelation analysis demonstrates a smooth gradient of decreasing genetic similarity of mtDNA types as geographic distance between sampling localities increases, strongly suggesting gene flow along the Nile, with no evident barriers. We conclude that these migrations probably occurred within the past few hundred to few thousand years and that the migration from north to south was either earlier or lesser in the extent of gene flow than the migration from south to north.
A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...tool=pmcentrez ARREDI Et. Al
...Since the estimates of the times to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCAs) of the most common haplogroups are quite recent, we suggest that the North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation is largely of Neolithic origin. Thus, we propose that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic–speaking pastoralists from the Middle East.
The mtDNA legacy of the Levantine early Upper Palaeolithic in Africa Olivieri A
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/314/5806/1767.abstract
Sequencing of 81 entire human mitochondrial DNAs (mtDNAs) belonging to haplogroups M1 and U6 reveals that these predominantly North African clades arose in southwestern Asia and moved together to Africa about 40,000 to 45,000 years ago. Their arrival temporally overlaps with the event(s) that led to the peopling of Europe by modern humans and was most likely the result of the same change in climate conditions that allowed humans to enter the Levant, opening the way to the colonization of both Europe and North Africa
www(The biomedical scientists November 2003). .cs.oswego.edu/~schofield/news/nefertiti.pdf
In the case of the skull believed by a number of experts to be Nefertiti, digital X-rays gave Evison and Schofield an image of the skull inside of the mummy...this particular skull could be classified as Indo-European.
http://www.readcube.com/articles/10.1002/ajpa.1330360603
(Brace, 1993)
"The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia... ...Oceania, or the New World. Adjacent people in the Nile valley show similarities in trivial traits in an unbroken series from the delta in the north southward through Nubia and all the way to Somalia at the equator. At the same time, the gradient in skin color and body proportions suggests long-term adaptive response to selective forces appropriate to the latitude where they occur... ...We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted,Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well." The questionable contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European craniofacial form http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1325007/ BRACE
The assessment of prehistoric and recent human craniofacial dimensions supports the picture documented by genetics that the extension of Neolithic agriculture from the Near East westward to Europe and across North Africa was accomplished by a process of demic diffusion (11–15)....
....When the samples used in Fig. 1 are compared by the use of canonical variate plots as in Fig. 2, the seperateness of the Niger-Congo speakers is again quite clear. Interestingly enough, however, the small Natufian sample falls between the Niger-Congo group and the other samples used. Fig 2 shows the plot produced by the first two canonical variates, but the same thing happens when canonical variates 1 and 3 (not shown here) are used. This placement suggests that there may have been a Sub-Saharan African element in the make-up of the Natufians (the putative ancestors of the subsequent Neolithic), although in this particular test there is no such evident presence in the North African or Egyptian samples. As shown in Fig. 1, the Somalis and the Egyptian Bronze Age sample from Naquada may also have a hint of a Sub-Saharan African component. That was not borne out in the canonical variate plot (Fig 2.), and there was no evidence of such an involvement in the Algerian Neolithic (Gambetta) sample.
Professor P. F. Ceccaldi, with a research team behind him, studied some hairs which were removed from the mummy's scalp. Ramesses II was 90 years-old when he died, and his hair had turned white. Ceccaldi determined that the reddish-yellow colour of the mummy's hair had been brought about by its being dyed with a dilute henna solution; it proved to be an example of the cosmetic attentions of the embalmers. However, traces of the hair's original colour (in youth), remain in the roots, even into advanced old age. Microscopic examinations proved that the hair roots contained traces of natural red pigments, and that therefore, during his youth, Ramesses II had been red-haired. It was concluded that these red pigments did not result from the hair somehow fading, or otherwise altering post-mortem, but did indeed represent Ramesses' natural hair colour. Ceccaldi also studied a cross-section of the hairs, and he determined from their oval shape, that Ramesses had been "cymotrich" (wavy-haired). Finally, he stated that such a combination of features showed that Ramesses had been a "leucoderm" (white-skinned person). [Balout, et al. (1985) 254-257.]
Thanks for all the cited works. There are a couple of things I'm noticing. For one, most of the information says sub-Saharan Africans played a small role in the genetics of Northern Africa. It doesn't say they didn't play a role at all.
Secondly, scientist, archaeologists, etc. are constantly rehashing, reevaluating and retooling their theories. Pluto was a planet, now it's not. On, and on, and on. I question the accuracy of those studies, not only the tools and chemicals use, but the agenda behind the studies in the first place.
Lastly, and most importantly, unfortunately American white people have spent centuries trying to convince other races of people, as well as themselves, they are better than blacks, smarter than blacks, more noble than blacks, more worthy than blacks, etc. You think for a second I would believe some scientists of this same group claiming to have discovered yet again how blacks did nothing but run naked in the jungle, while a bunch of dark people in Northern Africa, who built everything, are somehow still White? Also, I wasn't joking when I said some scientists are now claiming that even Nubian and Sudanese peoples are not negroid. This silliness just goes on and on.
Concerning affirmative action, it is a fact white women have benefited from affirmative action more than any other group. You keep bringing up SAT and College entrance requirements. Those are not the only institutions affirmative action was supposed to be a part of. Now don't get me wrong, I see nothing wrong with affirmative action for black people. In fact, that's the least the government could and should do, considering the governmental policies of handicapping blacks for decades. Yet and still, Mexicans, Asians, white women, the handicap, and any other group you can think of have benefited from affirmative action policies just as much, and in the case of white women, more then black people. Additionally, I challenge you to name one black individual working in a position they are not qualified for, due to affirmative action.
Okay, let's be clear, I know the difference between someone having dark skin and someone being negroid. Many East Indians have skin darker than African Americans, yet I don't think for a second they are negroid. So, I do understand the concept of black and negroid not being one and the same.
As far as these Gene studies, and declaring Nubians, ancient Egyptians, and any other successful race of people not being black, it's always some non-black person administering them. So, if Nubians weren't black, then what were they? Let me guess, dark white people. Am I right? Of course that's the answer. The moment an ancient civilization has the wheel, they are claimed by white people, no matter what their skin color or any other phenotype attributes they have. It's just ridiculous really, and a lot of black people see through this obvious agenda.
Is it my fault that blacks don't work in labs doing the genetic analysis? And if they did, would they come to different results based on the same gene samples? If it is science, they hardly could come to different conclusions just because they are black researchers.
Is it my fault that blacks did not invent the wheel first?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy Troy
I'm assuming you're not an American, so trying to discuss why African Americans have a collective self-esteem is almost futile. You clearly don't have much of a reference as to the things that have gone on here, and still going to a lesser extent. If you truly understood the things done in this country, you would understand that collectively black Americans have low self-esteem, and you would understand the reasons why. It's only been in the last 50 years we could even drink from the same water fountain as whites. Our whole history in this country has been one of being made to feel lower, and sometimes at the level of an animal. Read a history book on black American history, and then get back to me.
Just because I am not American does not mean I don't know AA history. I did a sort of thesis on AA history in high school (in the course of English as a foreign language).
I just don't think it makes sense to look for a collective AA self-esteem or identity. Actually, if I were AA, I would not want to be hijacked by certain AA leaders because of my skin color, I would rather be associated with liberal whites and Asians, frankly.
Is it my fault that blacks don't work in labs doing the genetic analysis? And if they did, would they come to different results based on the same gene samples? If it is science, they hardly could come to different conclusions just because they are black researchers.
Is it my fault that blacks did not invent the wheel first?
And this is a big part of the problem. We have groups of individuals who have historically and purposefully left out certain facts about negroid people's, (the Black Pharaohs being such fact as the ones doing all of reporting. We have to Simply hope that a group of people who have been historically racist, decide not to be! Please excuse me if I take some of the things they say with a grain of salt.
Then there's the conjecture. "Is it my fault that blacks did not invent the wheel first?" You don't know who invented the wheel first, and neither does any archaeologists on the planet. They damn sure where using wheels in the Nubian kingdoms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling
I just don't think it makes sense to look for a collective AA self-esteem or identity. Actually, if I were AA, I would not want to be hijacked by certain AA leaders because of my skin color, I would rather be associated with liberal whites and Asians, frankly.
If you were African-American it wouldn't matter what you want. You would be associated with African Americans regardless, because the liberal rights and Asians you mention in general would have nothing to do with you on any meaningful level. You don't think blacks have try to fit in with whites? You don't think black men have gotten money, move to the suburbs, and found the blondest blonde as their mate, all in an attempt to be associated with whites? Of course they have! Nevertheless, when the rubber met the road, they were still considered black and treated as such the moment they got out of line! (Tiger Woods still hasn't been the same!)
Sorry, but sub-Saharan Africa played no role in that respect.
That is no criticism, people invent what they need. There probably was no use for the wheel in most of Africa, so nobody invented it.
A driving force behind many inventions was and is war, unfortunately. Africans have lagged behind in that respect for a very long time, which again is no criticism. There was no need for a chariot in the jungle. If black Africans had not still lagged behind as late as the colonial times, they would not have yielded their continent to the Europeans.
Your description of the relationship between blacks and whites does not match what my middle-class AA friends near Chicago and in LA experience. They are very well integrated. Then again, my friend in Chicago for instance makes sure she is not lumped together with black rioters etc. She doesn't speak Ebonics and doesn't fall for pricks like Jesse Jackson and such dubious figures that try to hijack millions of AA's for their agenda. People of any color like her because she is a nice, intelligent person.
You know, different peoples/regions/countries are at different levels at any point in time. It was like that thousands of years ago and it still is like that today. Look at the world today: it was not Africans that invented the microchip or the synthesizer or the washing machine or the car. Wouldn't it be odd if 3000 years from now some black people said Africans invented the car just because a few Africans drove cars in 2017? Or if they took racial pride in the fact that some Africans merely drove cars in 2017?
Africa is still lagging far behind the West and East Asia today. And it's difficult to change that in the short run.
However, that does not say anything about people as such. One doesn't need to hijack other people's achievements in order to be considered equal. I have no doubt that people in Uganda or Ghana are potentially (i.e. at birth) just as intelligent and resourceful as Germans or Brits. When there is malnutrition and/or a lack of schooling, though, children's intelligence starts to lag behind, which unfortunately is often irreversible, and catastrophic in terms of global competition.
Today, I think black leaders are causing much more damage to black people than whites are.
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