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Old 06-28-2017, 12:10 PM
 
329 posts, read 244,595 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayVanderbilt View Post
Again, I think you are confused. No Northern European person would ever claim that their ancestors were Romans.


Not confused at all. Maybe your pal Motion and associates are as that's the argument from their end.
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Old 06-28-2017, 12:56 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,398 posts, read 19,315,114 times
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Mod cut.

Black people did have their own civilizations, mostly in West Africa.
No, those were not world-leading civilizations, but then again, neither were most others around the world, including Europe, which indeed only thrived thanks to the cultural input from the Southeast. But Germans, Brits etc. do not hijack Greece for their agenda, they do not claim ancient Greece, Rome, Persia, India etc. just because they adopted many cultural achievements from there. They know it would be absurd.

Last edited by PJSaturn; 06-28-2017 at 01:17 PM.. Reason: Reply to comment which has been deleted.
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Old 06-28-2017, 06:25 PM
 
178 posts, read 84,507 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
I think the difference here is that the Greco-Roman world had an influence on the development of western European culture that Egypt didn't have on other parts of Africa. It's through the Greeks and Romans that many Europeans learned writing and how to set up governments. No Egyptian influence is found in west,central and southern Africa. No west,central or southern Africans ever used Egyptian hieroglyphic writing or copied Egyptian architecture.
Much of Egypt owes its culture to Ancient Nubia(today Sudan) .
They influenced each other.

This may not be West,Central or Southern Africa but today NO ONE questions whether Sudan belongs in Africa as some do with Egypt
Sudan's Meroe Pyramids Are Just As Spectacular As The Ones You'll Find In Egypt | HuffPost


Black Pharaohs - National Geographic Magazine
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Old 06-28-2017, 08:36 PM
 
6,563 posts, read 9,074,058 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenseSoCommon View Post

Much of Egypt owes its culture to Ancient Nubia(today Sudan) .
They influenced each other.
This idea that Egyptian civilization came from Nubia seems to be based on some incomplete excavation work. Much of this is based on Bruce Williams' interpretation of Keith Seele's findings.


"In 1962, at a place called Qustul, about 180 miles (300 km) upriver from Aswan, a University of Chicago team, under the direction of Dr. Keith Seele, discovered a series of plundered, but still unusally rich, tombs containing massive quantities of Egyptian trade goods and luxury items. Since the rising floodwaters were advancing rapidly, the tombs were excavated hastily and the material put in storage. In the early 1980's, when he first examined the material prior to its final publication, Prehistorian Bruce B. Williams theorized that the tombs may have belonged to a dynasty of ten to twelve A-Group kings and that, like Upper and Lower Egypt at about the same time, Lower Nubia may also have developed a strong centralized authority. Two of the objects found in the tombs were sandstone incense burners, made of local stone, carved in intaglio with scenes that seemed to show ancient Egyptian kings, dressed in traditional tall crown (signifying rule over the south) and protected by the falcon god Horus.

What made Williams' theory so controversial was that he proposed that the objects did not show early Egyptian kings but rather A-Group kings, and that the objects - and the A-Group kingship - were earlier by at least two centuries than the Egyptian kingship of the same form. He went on to suggest that this hypothetical Nubian kingship became the model for the later Egyptian. The argument was quickly seized by American Afrocentrists as proof that Egyptian-style kingship was not home-grown but was imported from central Africa, and that the report by the Greek historian Diodorus Siculus in the first century BC that Egyptian civilization had derived from Nubia ("Aithiopia") was confirmed. While Williams' theory was intriguing, it could never be proven or disproven absolutely because shortly after the clearing of the tombs all of Qustul had been flooded forever by the Aswan Dam and could not be reinvestigated. Given the large numbers of imported Egyptian goods in the tombs, one could also never be certain if the incense burners, too, were not simply Egyptian imports rather than Nubian products, as most would have assumed them to be. The fact that they were made of local stone seemed to confirm that they were Nubian, and many other objects and pottery vessels seemed to have a Sudanese origin. Williams' characterization of the tombs as belonging to a time "prior to any known Egyptian kingship" now has to be modified by the recent discovery at Abydos in Egypt of Egyptian royal artifacts that do indeed seem to reach back as far as the Qustul tombs (about 3400 BC)."

The finding of an early Egyptian royal image:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110804220442.htm
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Old 06-28-2017, 08:50 PM
 
3,512 posts, read 2,516,206 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
I think the difference here is that the Greco-Roman world had an influence on the development of western European culture that Egypt didn't have on other parts of Africa. It's through the Greeks and Romans that many Europeans learned writing and how to set up governments. No Egyptian influence is found in west,central and southern Africa. No west,central or southern Africans ever used Egyptian hieroglyphic writing or copied Egyptian architecture.
This is correct, and the reverse is also true: Britain, Spain, France, Germany and others contributed the manpower that kept the Roman Empire alive. Some even supplied emperors.

My roots are Irish, Italian, Swedish, German, Polish and English. Given how many ancestors you have when you get just a couple of hundred years back, there is not doubt, none whatsoever, that I have Italian, English, and German ancestors who served in the legions. It is certainly possible that my Polish ancestors where there somewhere as well, perhaps as Sarmatian auxiliaries.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
This idea that Egyptian civilization came from Nubia seems to be based on some incomplete excavation work. Much of this is based on Bruce Williams' interpretation of Keith Seele's findings.
I don't think anyone doubts that Nubia contributed some cattle culture, but yes, the incense burner stuff is nonsense. There simply is no intact image there. It is basically a Keith Seele Rorschach test. What is more, older images of the crown have subsequently been found.

Seems to me that Nubia is to Egypt what the rest of Europe was to Rome in my post above. We should not discount the contribution, but we shouldn't overstate it either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
I think the difference here is that the Greco-Roman world had an influence on the development of western European culture that Egypt didn't have on other parts of Africa. It's through the Greeks and Romans that many Europeans learned writing and how to set up governments. No Egyptian influence is found in west,central and southern Africa. No west,central or southern Africans ever used Egyptian hieroglyphic writing or copied Egyptian architecture.
This is exactly right. To those who actually read about this stuff, one fo the great, haunting questions of Egyptology is why Egypt never spread its influence beyond Nubia.

People who claim a connection with Egypt and West Africa have no clue as to just how far off they are: West Africa mostly speaking an entirely different language group, its heyday being thousands of years later, etc. It is out of the question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
Here's one problem for that Sudaneses minister:


"The Sudanese Minister of Information, Ahmed Bilal Othman, claimed on Sunday that the MeroŽ Pyramids of Sudan are 2,000 years older than Egypt's pyramids. The Sudanese government is working to prove this to the entire world, he added."

So basically this Sudanese minister is making a claim that hasn't been proven yet. So is it a good idea for him to claim that Nubia's pyramids are 2,000 years older than Egypt's when they are working on proving this claim?
It is an absolute foolish claim. Poster does not seem to realize that it is known who many of the pyramids belong to and it is just an entirely different era. There is no archaeologist who thinks that they Nubian pyramids are older. It is just pseudo-archeology.

Poster also did not seem to read his own article to realize that the only reasoning behind this idiotic claim is some bizarre interpretation of religious texts with no supporting archaeology whatsoever.

Egyptian pyramids evolved from mastabas. We know the progression well, and we know when Nubians started building them in imitation. That does not lesson the greatness of the Nubian pyramids in any way, but they just are not older.

Last edited by cachibatches; 06-28-2017 at 09:15 PM..
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Old 06-29-2017, 07:52 AM
 
178 posts, read 84,507 times
Reputation: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
This is correct, and the reverse is also true: Britain, Spain, France, Germany and others contributed the manpower that kept the Roman Empire alive. Some even supplied emperors.

My roots are Irish, Italian, Swedish, German, Polish and English. Given how many ancestors you have when you get just a couple of hundred years back, there is not doubt, none whatsoever, that I have Italian, English, and German ancestors who served in the legions. It is certainly possible that my Polish ancestors where there somewhere as well, perhaps as Sarmatian auxiliaries.




I don't think anyone doubts that Nubia contributed some cattle culture, but yes, the incense burner stuff is nonsense. There simply is no intact image there. It is basically a Keith Seele Rorschach test. What is more, older images of the crown have subsequently been found.

Seems to me that Nubia is to Egypt what the rest of Europe was to Rome in my post above. We should not discount the contribution, but we shouldn't overstate it either.



This is exactly right. To those who actually read about this stuff, one fo the great, haunting questions of Egyptology is why Egypt never spread its influence beyond Nubia.

People who claim a connection with Egypt and West Africa have no clue as to just how far off they are: West Africa mostly speaking an entirely different language group, its heyday being thousands of years later, etc. It is out of the question.



It is an absolute foolish claim. Poster does not seem to realize that it is known who many of the pyramids belong to and it is just an entirely different era. There is no archaeologist who thinks that they Nubian pyramids are older. It is just pseudo-archeology.

Poster also did not seem to read his own article to realize that the only reasoning behind this idiotic claim is some bizarre interpretation of religious texts with no supporting archaeology whatsoever.

Egyptian pyramids evolved from mastabas. We know the progression well, and we know when Nubians started building them in imitation. That does not lesson the greatness of the Nubian pyramids in any way, but they just are not older.
Quote:
This is exactly right. To those who actually read about this stuff, one fo the great, haunting questions of Egyptology is why Egypt never spread its influence beyond Nubia.
Based on what I know or have read the Ku****es invaded Egypt around the 25th Dynasty and ruled I believed for at least 100 years.
Piye was the ruler who did that.
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Old 06-29-2017, 08:11 AM
 
178 posts, read 84,507 times
Reputation: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
This idea that Egyptian civilization came from Nubia seems to be based on some incomplete excavation work. Much of this is based on Bruce Williams' interpretation of Keith Seele's findings.


"In 1962, at a place called Qustul, about 180 miles (300 km) upriver from Aswan, a University of Chicago team, under the direction of Dr. Keith Seele, discovered a series of plundered, but still unusally rich, tombs containing massive quantities of Egyptian trade goods and luxury items. Since the rising floodwaters were advancing rapidly, the tombs were excavated hastily and the material put in storage. In the early 1980's, when he first examined the material prior to its final publication, Prehistorian Bruce B. Williams theorized that the tombs may have belonged to a dynasty of ten to twelve A-Group kings and that, like Upper and Lower Egypt at about the same time, Lower Nubia may also have developed a strong centralized authority. Two of the objects found in the tombs were sandstone incense burners, made of local stone, carved in intaglio with scenes that seemed to show ancient Egyptian kings, dressed in traditional tall crown (signifying rule over the south) and protected by the falcon god Horus.

What made Williams' theory so controversial was that he proposed that the objects did not show early Egyptian kings but rather A-Group kings, and that the objects - and the A-Group kingship - were earlier by at least two centuries than the Egyptian kingship of the same form. He went on to suggest that this hypothetical Nubian kingship became the model for the later Egyptian. The argument was quickly seized by American Afrocentrists as proof that Egyptian-style kingship was not home-grown but was imported from central Africa, and that the report by the Greek historian Diodorus Siculus in the first century BC that Egyptian civilization had derived from Nubia ("Aithiopia") was confirmed. While Williams' theory was intriguing, it could never be proven or disproven absolutely because shortly after the clearing of the tombs all of Qustul had been flooded forever by the Aswan Dam and could not be reinvestigated. Given the large numbers of imported Egyptian goods in the tombs, one could also never be certain if the incense burners, too, were not simply Egyptian imports rather than Nubian products, as most would have assumed them to be. The fact that they were made of local stone seemed to confirm that they were Nubian, and many other objects and pottery vessels seemed to have a Sudanese origin. Williams' characterization of the tombs as belonging to a time "prior to any known Egyptian kingship" now has to be modified by the recent discovery at Abydos in Egypt of Egyptian royal artifacts that do indeed seem to reach back as far as the Qustul tombs (about 3400 BC)."

The finding of an early Egyptian royal image:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110804220442.htm
Seems like all your points are strictly Egyptian historical related .hats fine but it should be balanced from other perspectives.
Most of the knowledge we have of Sudan is within the last 20 years or so.This information is always been updated and debated but to omit or marginalize it as nothing more than "Afrocentrism" does little to properly inforn or educate as it seems there is a certain bias by recognizing the latest research.

Quote:
The Ku****es believed that the home of the god Amun was in the mountain of Jebel Barkal, near the 4th Nile Cataract. Such was Amunís centrality to Ku****e beliefs that in the mid 8th century BC, the Ku****e kings invaded and conquered Egypt as champions of the god Amun. These kings are known in Egyptian Pharaonic history as the 25th Dynasty. Of them all, King Taharqo is the most famous, and is mentioned in the Bible. However, after ruling for around a hundred years in the 8th century, the Ku****es were expelled from Egypt by the Assyrians. Nonetheless, the Ku****e kingdom flourished in Sudan for another 1000 years, remaining powerful, and maintaining close contacts with Egypt.
https://www.world-archaeology.com/fe...geil-sudan.htm
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Old 06-29-2017, 08:15 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,398 posts, read 19,315,114 times
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What's also interesting is that so diverse people as the Tuareg and other Berbers, Jews, ancient and modern Egyptians, Ethiopians, Somalis, Arabs, Syrians, etc. all speak related languages, i.e. Afro-Asiatic languages.

http://www.languagesgulper.com/eng/A...arge%20map.jpg



There has been thorough investigation into the genetics of the people speaking such languages, mostly in the Horn of Africa, which has the greatest variety and is thus considered a potential origin of all those languages.
Early Back-to-Africa Migration into the Horn of Africa

Such findings make you wonder how African the Horn of Africa actually is. People have suspected major non-African heritage there for a long time simply by looking at people, many of whom don't really look black African, despite their dark skin.
Three are also genetic ties between Ethiopian and Yemenite Jews, which suggests migrations across the Red Sea.
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Old 06-29-2017, 01:55 PM
 
6,563 posts, read 9,074,058 times
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SenseSoCommon,


According to this info this is the likely way that the Nubians/Kush-ites adopted the worship of Amun.



Quote:
Egypt pushed its way into Nubia, ultimately conquering and making it a colonial province. The Egyptians were drawn by the landís rich store of natural resources, including ebony, ivory, animal skins, and, most importantly, gold. As they expanded their control of Nubia, the Egyptians built a number of temples to Amun, the largest of which stood at the foot of a holy mountain called Jebel Barkal. This the Egyptians declared to be the godís southern home, thereby conceptualizing Egypt and Nubia as a unified whole and justifying their rule of both. After Egyptís New Kingdom collapsed around 1069 B.C., the kingdom of Kush rose in Nubia, with its court based in Napata, the town adjacent to Jebel Barkal. The Egyptian colonizers may have been gone, but their religious legacy lived on, as the Kush-ite rulers were by this time fervently devoted to Amun...

The Cult of Amun - Archaeology Magazine
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Old 06-29-2017, 02:02 PM
 
329 posts, read 244,595 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
What's also interesting is that so diverse people as the Tuareg and other Berbers, Jews, ancient and modern Egyptians, Ethiopians, Somalis, Arabs, Syrians, etc. all speak related languages, i.e. Afro-Asiatic languages.

http://www.languagesgulper.com/eng/A...arge%20map.jpg



There has been thorough investigation into the genetics of the people speaking such languages, mostly in the Horn of Africa, which has the greatest variety and is thus considered a potential origin of all those languages.
Early Back-to-Africa Migration into the Horn of Africa

Such findings make you wonder how African the Horn of Africa actually is. People have suspected major non-African heritage there for a long time simply by looking at people, many of whom don't really look black African, despite their dark skin.
Three are also genetic ties between Ethiopian and Yemenite Jews, which suggests migrations across the Red Sea.
Africa is one of the most diverse continents on Earth. This idea that there's a "typical" African look totally ignores the various phenotypes found on the continent. See the Fulani in West Africa, San in South Africa etc.

Last edited by jkc2j; 06-29-2017 at 02:17 PM..
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