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Old 08-12-2017, 06:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverkris View Post
This really isn't surprising, as many (mostly White) Americans are self-deluded or don't have a realistic perception about the state of racial relations in the USA...
Amazingly several surveys indicate that whites think whites in general and white men in particular are the MOST discriminated against group in the USA.

Now how can one have intelligent discussion if this becomes the starting point. All aspects of life in the USA is dominated by white men so if white men are discriminated against its because of how other white men treat them.

This is unlike South Africa where blacks have political power, even if this is nominal, given the fact that the economy is still white dominated. And they are the numerically dominant group. So I can see why Noah will claim that there is less honesty about racism in the USA. In South Africa they have to be more honest.
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Old 08-15-2017, 09:28 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Amazingly several surveys indicate that whites think whites in general and white men in particular are the MOST discriminated against group in the USA.

Now how can one have intelligent discussion if this becomes the starting point. All aspects of life in the USA is dominated by white men so if white men are discriminated against its because of how other white men treat them.

This is unlike South Africa where blacks have political power, even if this is nominal, given the fact that the economy is still white dominated. And they are the numerically dominant group. So I can see why Noah will claim that there is less honesty about racism in the USA. In South Africa they have to be more honest.
I'd be interested to know if in South Africa, they were pulling down statues of Louis Botha, Paul Kruger, and Hendrik Verwoerd like they're trying to dismantle Confederate generals statues in the American South...
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Old 08-16-2017, 05:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by silverkris View Post
I'd be interested to know if in South Africa, they were pulling down statues of Louis Botha, Paul Kruger, and Hendrik Verwoerd like they're trying to dismantle Confederate generals statues in the American South...


The Boers in South Africa are wailing loudly that their culture and traditions are under attack.


In fact some of those leading the demand for the removal of these pieces of evidence from apartheid might well be whites who want that sordid period to be erased so that they don't have to deal with it in day to day conversation.


Do you think that whites in South Africa want to deal with the apartheid issue on a daily basis on a nation where blacks are the majority? They look with angst at Zimbabwe and what an aggrieved black population might do, so I really don't think too many will want to openly celebrate that era.


South Africa changed its flag and its national anthem. I think that might tell you something.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:20 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
The Boers in South Africa are wailing loudly that their culture and traditions are under attack.


In fact some of those leading the demand for the removal of these pieces of evidence from apartheid might well be whites who want that sordid period to be erased so that they don't have to deal with it in day to day conversation.


Do you think that whites in South Africa want to deal with the apartheid issue on a daily basis on a nation where blacks are the majority? They look with angst at Zimbabwe and what an aggrieved black population might do, so I really don't think too many will want to openly celebrate that era.


South Africa changed its flag and its national anthem. I think that might tell you something.
That's a very interesting take. So you're saying that the black majority really doesn't have to bother too much with getting rid of white power or culture symbols because they're comfortable knowing that they will have a bigger voice in shaping how history will be recorded? I do know that they renamed the Johannesburg airport from Jan Smuts to Oliver Tambo post-1994, and that other place names have been changed (though often not without a fight ).
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Old 08-20-2017, 10:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by silverkris View Post
That's a very interesting take. So you're saying that the black majority really doesn't have to bother too much with getting rid of white power or culture symbols because they're comfortable knowing that they will have a bigger voice in shaping how history will be recorded? I do know that they renamed the Johannesburg airport from Jan Smuts to Oliver Tambo post-1994, and that other place names have been changed (though often not without a fight ).

No serious person in South Africa, black or white, celebrates the history of apartheid, or sees symbols from that era as a part of their heritage.

On the other hand the Civil War is viewed by many whites, not all Southern, as act of heroism and the Confederate flag as an AMERICAN cultural symbol and not the evidence of hatred and bigotry that indeed it was.

It is the white South African, who often lacks any credibility in critiquing ANC because they will be accused of sour grapes due to the end of apartheid, that will in fact want to erase any symbolism connected to that era. Only isolated extremists in fact express any pride in that era. For the rest its a shameful period best forgotten.

The "Donald Trump" in South Africa will in fact be a Zuma character who will attempt to shut down any debate about the current behavior of the ANC by raising the apartheid bogey man. Even as many blacks despair of their corruption and incompetence they still remain powerful because of their role as the entity which ended apartheid. It is possible that their days might be coming to an end but this will only happen as a younger black cohort tires of them. Leaving reminders of apartheid in fact makes life easy for the ANC.


.
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Old 10-04-2017, 06:31 AM
 
Location: Macao
15,951 posts, read 36,196,266 times
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Originally Posted by silverkris View Post
This really isn't surprising, as many (mostly White) Americans are self-deluded or don't have a realistic perception about the state of racial relations in the USA...
Yep, so true.
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Old 10-04-2017, 06:38 AM
 
Location: Macao
15,951 posts, read 36,196,266 times
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Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Amazingly several surveys indicate that whites think whites in general and white men in particular are the MOST discriminated against group in the USA.
That's basically what Michael Moore was saying when he assumed Trump was going to win the election prior to winning.

The assumption among Trump-supporting whites was 'liberal programs' all go to blacks....and there isn't anything for poor whites to go to college, get affordable housing, on and on.

I'm not saying that they are right, but that is what most poor whites in America believe.

I guess its not an impossible conclusion to come by...they see things like the United Negro College Fund, and whatever else...and don't see anything comparable for poor whites. Again, I'm not saying this is right, this is just the belief system among them.
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Old 10-05-2017, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Denver
14,151 posts, read 19,785,378 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
That's basically what Michael Moore was saying when he assumed Trump was going to win the election prior to winning.

The assumption among Trump-supporting whites was 'liberal programs' all go to blacks....and there isn't anything for poor whites to go to college, get affordable housing, on and on.

I'm not saying that they are right, but that is what most poor whites in America believe.

I guess its not an impossible conclusion to come by...they see things like the United Negro College Fund, and whatever else...and don't see anything comparable for poor whites. Again, I'm not saying this is right, this is just the belief system among them.
They need a 10 minute history lesson.
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Old 10-06-2017, 10:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by annie_himself View Post
They need a 10 minute history lesson.
At least...
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Old 10-06-2017, 03:35 PM
 
Location: West of Louisiana, East of New Mexico
2,536 posts, read 2,031,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
At least...
Poor whites in America seem to be the most...no pun intended....in the dark group in America.

Liberals (mainly the more slightly left-of-center types) and conservatives alike all give them the same spiel about nothing ever being their fault and that it's Those Others that are taking their jobs and way of life. Conservatives use blacks and Latinos while liberals point to any number of boogeymen. They are the only group that consistently votes against their own interests. People of color lean liberal not because Democrats always have their best interests at heart but because it's usually the best option we have.

When liberals tell poor/middle class whites to pull themselves up by the bootstraps (the argument that whites love to use with blacks when juxtaposing us versus Asians), they get mad and vote for Donald Trump.
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