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Old 04-05-2018, 09:19 PM
 
5,733 posts, read 4,635,090 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PacoMartin View Post
I think you are delusional if you think that European civilization in 1453 was the most advanced on Earth, and because of that they conquered and colonized the world. It was not "highly advanced culture, philosophy, and ethics", it was "guns , germs and steel".
But guns and steel as well as other technologies are part of what makes a highly advanced culture especially when other cultures at that time lack such things. Come on!
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Old 04-05-2018, 09:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80s_kid View Post
Not to mention the Haya people. They had medicines and forged steel way before the Euros. Funny thing, these people always have a habit of distorting things about other people to make it a competition. It's good that Europe took from different cultures around the world and put things together but nobody needs European validation on anything.
Not true!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noric_steel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noricu...Roman_weaponry
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Old 04-06-2018, 12:08 AM
 
4,433 posts, read 4,415,587 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
But guns and steel as well as other technologies are part of what makes a highly advanced culture especially when other cultures at that time lack such things. Come on!
But other societies didn't lack those things, Europe was wasn't the only culture with guns, generally the technology around gunpower and explosive came from Asia.

Also during that time "1453" The iron age been spread across the old world "Europe, Asia and Africa" societies Europe wasn't unique in that regard.

Iron Age

Iron metallurgy in Africa

I think after Middle age Europe definitely started to pull ahead.... but during the middle ages, East Asia, India and Islamic parts of Africa was ahead of Europe. Odd as it seems before age of enlighten in Europe. Islam was general more accepting then Christianity of science and math. That's on the reason we use Arab numeral instead of Roman.

Arabic numerals
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Old 04-06-2018, 01:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
But other societies didn't lack those things, Europe was wasn't the only culture with guns, generally the technology around gunpower and explosive came from Asia.

Also during that time "1453" The iron age been spread across the old world "Europe, Asia and Africa" societies Europe wasn't unique in that regard.

Iron Age

Iron metallurgy in Africa

I think after Middle age Europe definitely started to pull ahead.... but during the middle ages, East Asia, India and Islamic parts of Africa was ahead of Europe. Odd as it seems before age of enlighten in Europe. Islam was general more accepting then Christianity of science and math. That's on the reason we use Arab numeral instead of Roman.

Arabic numerals
But my point was not that other societies lacked those things. My point was regarding your dichotomy - 'It was not highly advanced culture, philosophy, and ethics, it was "guns , germs and steel.' Your separation of what makes a highly advanced culture from guns and steel is wrong. Guns and steel, AT THAT TIME, were and are part of a highly advanced culture. You can't say that it was guns and steel but not highly advanced.

And since there was no higher advancement in weapons and steel at that time how can you not classify it as highly advanced? In other words no other culture, in this regard was higher, 'ESPECIALLY', the word I used in my first post, if other cultures lacked such things. I am not sure how you changed the point to me suggesting that others did not have such things?
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Old 04-06-2018, 04:54 AM
 
Location: Macao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80s_kid View Post
Karl Mauch, the German and many other Europeans back then made speculation a sport when it came to the Great Zimbabwe ruins. This is another reason why I feel that Africa would be okay sans European colonization. I'm getting bored with this...I'm under the impression that dominant tribes would have absorbed the weaker tribes and would have progressed from there. Again, I don't have delusions of Wakanda but the people of Africa have more than shown themselves capable of living the opposite of the distorted idea that the West like to perpetuate.
Interesting. I guess this implies that Africa would have followed the nation-states concept that happened to Europe, just naturally, on their own.

The Europe way was basically a 'King' continued to 'take over' subjects' until eventually they just made them all speak that King's language, etc. Than militaries were built, to protect those conquests, and education enforced the same language, etc.

I think it wouldn't have happened in the exact same way in Africa, on its own. I think it occurred everywhere in Europe around the same time, as regionally they each were almost required to do this, for their own preservation. Africa being removed, wouldn't have had to do that, in quite the same way. They would have to develop in the exact same way, at the exact same time.

I think no matter what, it would have taken Africa exposure to the concept of city-state, to have built its own city-state Europe equivalents. The only way it would have escaped it would have been to be a place like Thailand. Thailand conformed to the concepts of a legal state under a King, and tried to show itself as a democratic state, with a King that did the biddings of Europe to such a degree, so that a European powers just agreed to leave it alone, as long as they could still exploit resources and such under that Thailand city-state.
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Old 04-06-2018, 11:39 AM
 
5,733 posts, read 4,635,090 times
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Quote:
80s kid: Nah, I meant Caucauwhatevers. Not being hostile but Blumenbach didn't know what he was talking about. I've seen people claim that Ethiopians are dark Caucasoids. Okay....
Quote:
AFP: Some Ethiopians claim to be dark Caucasoids as well.
This may help!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People...enetic_studies
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Old 04-06-2018, 05:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
But my point was not that other societies lacked those things. My point was regarding your dichotomy - 'It was not highly advanced culture, philosophy, and ethics, it was "guns , germs and steel.' Your separation of what makes a highly advanced culture from guns and steel is wrong. Guns and steel, AT THAT TIME, were and are part of a highly advanced culture. You can't say that it was guns and steel but not highly advanced.

And since there was no higher advancement in weapons and steel at that time how can you not classify it as highly advanced? In other words no other culture, in this regard was higher, 'ESPECIALLY', the word I used in my first post, if other cultures lacked such things. I am not sure how you changed the point to me suggesting that others did not have such things?
That post you originally replied to wasn't me, I just replied to your reply of it.

I never said it wasn't apart, I just said Europeans weren't the only society with them at the time. And even among the one that do it debatable which was the most advance was my point.
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Old 04-06-2018, 11:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
That post you originally replied to wasn't me, I just replied to your reply of it.

I never said it wasn't apart, I just said Europeans weren't the only society with them at the time. And even among the one that do it debatable which was the most advance was my point.
Yes that was not you but my point still stands.
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Old 04-07-2018, 01:20 AM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
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There’s no point where any logical and rational person can look at pre-colonial Africa and say “yeah, this would’ve been (insert 1st world country here) without colonialism.”

Technology wise, it was just too far behind like most non-western countries during its time. Africa was largely still tribal which means endless fights for kings, land, ethnicities, rules, culture, Etc.

When someone beats you to the finish line, regardless of how they did it, and they show you the path to how they did it. You take that path. Africa should’ve taken the Japan approach and embrace westernization, globalization, and modernization before the colonial powers came in. Japan would’ve been another colonial puppet for a western power had they not adopted westernization and quickly developed a powerful military which at one point defeated Russia and conquered all of East and South East Asia.

East Asian countries (Asian tigers aka Asian miracles) are the only example we have of countries making the jump from 3rd world to 1st world so it can be done.

The point is not why Africa was behind western civilization during it pre-colonial period and largely a tribal culture. Hell, China was behind the west as well. The point is that they were behind them and that a lack of colonialism wasn’t going to change the outcome of Africa’s countries into 1st world countries without an embrace of westernization. Today, colonization can longer be an excuse for the failed states of Africa.

Quote:
For example, in 1957 Ghana and South Korea had about the same per capita GDP. South Korea had a national leadership focused on the development of state institutions that were focused on rapid, technology-intensive economic development. Ghana has no programmes of similar nature on record.

Taiwan’s economy underperformed under Japanese colonial rule between 1895 and 1945. In the 1950s the country was an agrarian economy with the same living standard as Congo. But by 2010 it had overtaken its former colonial master to become the number one producer of semi-conductors in the world.

The point is that a colonial past is no excuse for Africa’s failure so far to catch up, emulate and leapfrog.
Quote:
Nineteen out of 23 of the poorest nations in the world are in Africa. Of the 54 African countries, about 19 are represented on the world’s poorest list.

Yet no African leader has pursued with single-minded determination the improvement of household incomes. Instead their focus has generally been on economic growth with trickle down being viewed as a panacea for higher GDP per capita.

Even in South Africa there is no set period for the poor in the black majority (90% of the population) to move into the middle class proper, with access to tertiary education, white goods and shelter, and annual household expenditure close to US$36,500.
What's needed to take Africa from Third to First World in 25 years
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Old 04-07-2018, 05:39 AM
 
Location: Macao
15,945 posts, read 36,154,437 times
Reputation: 9478
Part of the issue at the moment is the way the continent was carved from the European countries. While we can't go back, we could go forward...

The IF Africa was UnColonized Map:

https://robo-diglet.deviantart.com/a...rica-527503886

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