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Old 06-03-2019, 09:29 PM
 
914 posts, read 551,239 times
Reputation: 849

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayarea-girl View Post
Are you Ethiopian, have you been to Ethiopia? I'm not sure you can give me a history lesson. Please don't use wikipedia as reference source to make a point (I don't mean to be rude, its just not a good source). This post isn't about Ethiopia. But to clarify Ethiopian people have fought wars just like anyone else but it is public knowledge that Ethiopian muslims and christians have lived amongst each other mainly in peace since the times the religions have formed that simply is a fact. Ethiopians have had wars for all sorts of reason usually having to do with territorial claims which the wikipedia writing you googled references it does not say that due to islamic and christian conflicts/beliefs that these people fought. If tensions were significant muslims or christians would have fled the country or visa versa. Remember that there are 90+M people in Ethiopia. No one in Ethiopia aligns themselves with race they do align themselves with their respective tribes (not sure what your point is here).

To your second response, I would have to disagree with you as well we'd have to go deep with history lessons. Don't just think transatlantic slavery as black slavery was happening before then. Africans have been Europe's and the America's greatest import. I'm not sure why this is debated?

Although I don't need to google look up how Ethiopian muslims and christians have been living in peace, here is a reference point for you Christians and Muslims living in peace, Ethiopia - Don Bosco and the peaceful life between Christians and Muslims, others can google if you aren't familiar as this fact has widely been covered.

Anyways, the lesson for Africa is colonization. Don't let it happen again, continue to build, don't give away resources. Africa is developing/evolving and doesn't need outside intervention. It will continue to be a major resource to the rest of the world.
It doesn't matter which sources I quoted. The conflicts I mentioned would be described in similar ways. The point was that Christians and Muslims have not always lived "in harmony" in Ethiopia as you said.

The links you posted are even sketchier than wikipedia as sources for a historical debate. In fact they aren't even about historical events. You should at least read through your sources.

I'm not defending colonialism or that outside intervention is needed or good. It's just that some of your statements are pretty easy to debunk, for those with basic knowledge of human history. No need for a history lesson here.
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Old 06-03-2019, 11:28 PM
 
3,118 posts, read 6,837,555 times
Reputation: 1549
I've read what I posted and it does matter what you are posting because wikipedia isn't fact based anyone can write something including you. What I've posted came from a USA based organization that is working in Ethiopia and the other is a source that generates articles about religion if those are sketchy then that is your opinion. Yes, Christians and Muslims have lived peacefully in Ethiopia. I think you just want to miss the point. I'll write it for the last time. There are 90M+ Ethiopians with the demonate religion being Christianity the other half being muslim you will find less conflict about religion as people are more concerned with land or the need to take care of their families. There has not been constant fighting in that country about religion especially since Ethiopians have taken in many refugees over time from all religions. This is not what I am just saying this is fact. When you visit Ethiopia then tell me your experience.

\If all you've learned about Africa from these posts or just from the slave trade from your high school then you do need a history lesson.

You can't debunk facts (and you haven't debunked anything I simply can't take a googler serious). Facts don't come from the USA they only show you what they want you to see. For the longest time the USA would say that Africans all lived in mud huts heck white South Africans (Europeans) even claimed they were there long before the African. What is being taught to children these days is that Indians migrated to the USA I guess to somehow make it okay of what was done to its inhabitants. I actually can post many historical books which you might take a look at. Why in the USA are people only learning about the pyramids and it makes it seem that they are only in Egypt why not go over Sudanese history? Nigerians are some of the most educated and successful people on this planet but somehow the colonizer will try to depict them to be bad people (a few people become bad people their population is the highest in Africa, not all are scammers). This is history that isn't being taught. You can't debunk ones experiences or education. When you actually experience rather than google Africa let us know.

Your claim that Europe or the America's would have been the same without Africa/Africans that is the farthest from the truth. There are zero historical facts, comments, ideas you've provided to back that up.

Last edited by bayarea-girl; 06-04-2019 at 12:30 AM.. Reason: making additional points
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Old 06-04-2019, 07:27 AM
 
914 posts, read 551,239 times
Reputation: 849
Quote:
Originally Posted by bayarea-girl View Post
I've read what I posted and it does matter what you are posting because wikipedia isn't fact based anyone can write something including you. What I've posted came from a USA based organization that is working in Ethiopia and the other is a source that generates articles about religion if those are sketchy then that is your opinion. Yes, Christians and Muslims have lived peacefully in Ethiopia. I think you just want to miss the point. I'll write it for the last time. There are 90M+ Ethiopians with the demonate religion being Christianity the other half being muslim you will find less conflict about religion as people are more concerned with land or the need to take care of their families. There has not been constant fighting in that country about religion especially since Ethiopians have taken in many refugees over time from all religions. This is not what I am just saying this is fact. When you visit Ethiopia then tell me your experience.

\If all you've learned about Africa from these posts or just from the slave trade from your high school then you do need a history lesson.

You can't debunk facts (and you haven't debunked anything I simply can't take a googler serious). Facts don't come from the USA they only show you what they want you to see. For the longest time the USA would say that Africans all lived in mud huts heck white South Africans (Europeans) even claimed they were there long before the African. What is being taught to children these days is that Indians migrated to the USA I guess to somehow make it okay of what was done to its inhabitants. I actually can post many historical books which you might take a look at. Why in the USA are people only learning about the pyramids and it makes it seem that they are only in Egypt why not go over Sudanese history? Nigerians are some of the most educated and successful people on this planet but somehow the colonizer will try to depict them to be bad people (a few people become bad people their population is the highest in Africa, not all are scammers). This is history that isn't being taught. You can't debunk ones experiences or education. When you actually experience rather than google Africa let us know.

Your claim that Europe or the America's would have been the same without Africa/Africans that is the farthest from the truth. There are zero historical facts, comments, ideas you've provided to back that up.
Traditional Ethiopia started as a Christian nation but the current nation state has a more mixed demographic. No country has gone from point A to point B without some conflict. If you want to insist that there had been less conflict in Ethiopia than elsewhere I don't need to get into that.

If you're basing the claim that the world wouldn't have been the same without Africans on the human migration out of Africa tens of thousands of years ago then you have a strange and confusing way of making that point. There's nothing I need to add to that.
But if you're one of those "African wealth built modern civilization" people then you're the one having to back up that extraordinary claim. I've yet to see any source showing African wealth as having played a significant role in the development of Russia for example.
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Old 06-04-2019, 11:19 AM
 
3,118 posts, read 6,837,555 times
Reputation: 1549
Again you don't need to tell me about Ethiopia, it didn't start as a Christian nation that is also incorrect it was the first country to adopt it. Every country has conflict and I didn't write that it didn't. Ethiopia is one of the few places in the world with high numbers of muslims and christians that have lived amongst each other for centuries (this is not new) with minimal conflict. Conflicts there always will be conflict but it isn't usually because of religion. Most africans that inter fight today is due to land or tribal issues and is basically what is stated in the links your posted.

You are clearly now are starting new dialogues and are a bit over the place. I didn't mention any claims about human migration just not sure where you are coming up with that. Yes Africans have built other countries up, have been innovators, and resources have been used to build other countries, this is a fact and I'm not sure how you can say otherwise. Who built the United States? Africans! From the light bulb to internet these inventions came from africans and or descendants. Professional sports and entertainment all popular because of Africans.

The US imports more than it produces, why? Well they have used theirs up and same with most of Europe. Where does the N Americans & most of Europe import from? China/Africa. Where does China get much of their resources/labor today? Africa!!!! Who is China's major allie? Russia!

Russia and Africa have a long history (specifically Ethiopia & Russia since the 19th century and are allies and true partners), while Russia has much of its own resources they still benefit from Africa (they claim because it is easier to obtain from Africa, but I believe that and that there is no need for them to use their own resources). Africa is in Russia in a big way right now and if you don't know this I don't what to tell you. Russia is one country in Europe what about the others? If you think that European countries aren't or haven't benefited from Africa we can end the back and forth.

Russia also has clear economic incentives for involvement in Africa.It has a shortage of minerals such as manganese, bauxite and chromium, all of which are important for industry. The aluminium company, Rusal, has started shipping bauxite from mines in Guinea, which is now estimated to account for about a quarter of all of Rusal's production of the ore.

Russia is also interested in diamonds - the state diamond mining company, Alrosa, signed a deal in 2017 with Angola."East African gas in particular is of interest and Rosneft has opened an office in Mozambique as it was awarded two off-shore [gas] concessions there," says Alex Vines, of Chatham House. Paul Stronski, senior fellow at the US-based Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, believes there are several advantages for Russia in engaging with resource-rich African countries. Alex Vines, of Chatham House, points out that Russia is not the old Soviet Union. "It lacks the resources to extend itself significantly in Africa. Instead, it will look for niches, such as defence and raw material extraction," he says .(states the BBC).

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-45035889
How Russia is growing its strategic influence in Africa
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/publ...turn-to-africa
https://www.theguardian.com/global-d...ials-off-guard
Russia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS5GlmL2S_E
https://nationalinterest.org/feature...mbitions-46352
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/dipl...id-tensions-us
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/africa/anal...africa/1448246
https://citizen.co.za/news/news-worl...ou-were-wrong/

Last edited by bayarea-girl; 06-04-2019 at 11:59 AM.. Reason: forgot to mention an additional source
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Old 06-04-2019, 03:38 PM
 
914 posts, read 551,239 times
Reputation: 849
Quote:
Originally Posted by bayarea-girl View Post
Again you don't need to tell me about Ethiopia, it didn't start as a Christian nation that is also incorrect it was the first country to adopt it. Every country has conflict and I didn't write that it didn't. Ethiopia is one of the few places in the world with high numbers of muslims and christians that have lived amongst each other for centuries (this is not new) with minimal conflict. Conflicts there always will be conflict but it isn't usually because of religion. Most africans that inter fight today is due to land or tribal issues and is basically what is stated in the links your posted.

You are clearly now are starting new dialogues and are a bit over the place. I didn't mention any claims about human migration just not sure where you are coming up with that. Yes Africans have built other countries up, have been innovators, and resources have been used to build other countries, this is a fact and I'm not sure how you can say otherwise. Who built the United States? Africans! From the light bulb to internet these inventions came from africans and or descendants. Professional sports and entertainment all popular because of Africans.

The US imports more than it produces, why? Well they have used theirs up and same with most of Europe. Where does the N Americans & most of Europe import from? China/Africa. Where does China get much of their resources/labor today? Africa!!!! Who is China's major allie? Russia!

Russia and Africa have a long history (specifically Ethiopia & Russia since the 19th century and are allies and true partners), while Russia has much of its own resources they still benefit from Africa (they claim because it is easier to obtain from Africa, but I believe that and that there is no need for them to use their own resources). Africa is in Russia in a big way right now and if you don't know this I don't what to tell you. Russia is one country in Europe what about the others? If you think that European countries aren't or haven't benefited from Africa we can end the back and forth.

Russia also has clear economic incentives for involvement in Africa.It has a shortage of minerals such as manganese, bauxite and chromium, all of which are important for industry. The aluminium company, Rusal, has started shipping bauxite from mines in Guinea, which is now estimated to account for about a quarter of all of Rusal's production of the ore.

Russia is also interested in diamonds - the state diamond mining company, Alrosa, signed a deal in 2017 with Angola."East African gas in particular is of interest and Rosneft has opened an office in Mozambique as it was awarded two off-shore [gas] concessions there," says Alex Vines, of Chatham House. Paul Stronski, senior fellow at the US-based Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, believes there are several advantages for Russia in engaging with resource-rich African countries. Alex Vines, of Chatham House, points out that Russia is not the old Soviet Union. "It lacks the resources to extend itself significantly in Africa. Instead, it will look for niches, such as defence and raw material extraction," he says .(states the BBC).

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-45035889
How Russia is growing its strategic influence in Africa
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/publ...turn-to-africa
https://www.theguardian.com/global-d...ials-off-guard
Russia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS5GlmL2S_E
https://nationalinterest.org/feature...mbitions-46352
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/dipl...id-tensions-us
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/africa/anal...africa/1448246
https://citizen.co.za/news/news-worl...ou-were-wrong/
Of course I knew Ethiopia didn't start off Christian. The religion is only 2000 years old after all. Don't assume that you have to be Ethiopian to possess such basic knowledge.

I thought you were talking about history, because of the title of this thread, but looks like you want to talk about today or very recent developments. I'll leave you to it.
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Old 06-04-2019, 03:40 PM
 
Location: USA
17,786 posts, read 8,885,707 times
Reputation: 13317
It will look like South Africa will look like in five years. Just another African Hell Hole with tribal warfare, murder, rape, and mutilations.
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Old 06-04-2019, 04:16 PM
 
446 posts, read 185,297 times
Reputation: 622
What do I think of it?

I think it is grammatically incorrect. It should read "What if African had never been colonized?" The way it is worded it sounds like what if Africa were never colonized, in the modern age, in an ongoing process of colonization?

As to the question, "What if Africa had never been colonized?" I imagine it would still be "the dark continent" to much of the rest of the world. Not that that could be, humans being as they are; you would have to also ask, "What if ships and sailing had never been invented?" "What if humans had never had any wanderlust/drive to conquer and colonize?" What if they had never developed the skills to build boats and the desire to work their ears off rowing them across an ocean just because it was there?

If Africa had never been colonized, I imagine Africans would have gone on making war against each other, conquering each other, etc., trading with each other. Would they have built boats and gone out exploring and rowing across oceans to see what was out there? Do any African peoples have a history of that sort of thing? Would they have migrated as some of the Pacific islanders did, and, as some say, the American Indians did? Or would they, like Australia's original people, have stayed on their continent doing their own thing? Out of a mindset of contentment? Or a mindset of no curiosity to look beyond their shores?
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Old 06-04-2019, 04:20 PM
 
3,118 posts, read 6,837,555 times
Reputation: 1549
mkwensky, you keep referring to things you don't know. No you don't have to be Ethiopian to understand history but you should be more developed than just googling. If you haven't even been to a country but you can write with certainty about its conflicts without understanding the issues just seems strange.

This thread is about colonialism and how Africa would be without it, prior to me you've been way off topic. I've made my points. The colonizers needed Africans as them need them today. I keep leaving out the Arabs in the discussion but Africa didn't their division in the region either. Language and cultural divide amongst Africans can also be attributed to them as well.

Pilot, where are you from? South Africa has its problems as do all countries but South Africa is far from an African Hell Hole. You don't have to go far from the USA or Europe to hear about rape and murder. What do you call a person with a gun that shoots up churches and people at their job or their wife or girlfriend a terrorist or your next door neighbor? Your food will soon be coming from the countries you consider hell holes.

If these places are hell holes I wonder why so many Americans and Europeans stay?

Rwanda -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIZPKw8aQOU
Nigeria
Abuja-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auRJs3ioOEo
Lagos -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbsdLI8kaWc

Kenya https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML4lIGRICnk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srP7RFVdjWc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IZphJwY6lc

Senegal, Morocco, Ethiopia, Ghana, Tanzania, Kenya etc. there are so many places doing amazing things to develop the countries. Colonization set Africa back but it is developing and doesn't have to look back. Without colonization Africa would have been further ahead!

Saskia Calico, Africans had long traveled to other places prior to colonization. There are even African communities in Asia. Africans traveled and traded even occupied European terrorists like Spain and Italy and have long been in the Middle East, Israel, France, Russia, Armenia, Greece, etc. Sadly this country doesn't teach this history. It is sad that what people know about Africa is hunger and war.

Last edited by bayarea-girl; 06-04-2019 at 05:00 PM..
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Old 06-05-2019, 06:09 AM
 
Location: Richmond, Virginia
179 posts, read 76,990 times
Reputation: 343
Africa is at the "center" of the world, theoretically it could become a flourishing trade center linking Europe, the Mediterranean, Middle East, Asia. It's coastlines would be bustling in the trade of goods, mystery schools and sciences. Was there any example of that in African history? Certainly in geographic North Africa/South Mediterranean there was -- Alexandria, Egypt, but it was never considered "African" by its inhabitants.

That said, all cultures/civilizations undergo a series of ups and downs. Just because the African continent today is in bad shape doesn't mean it will always be that way.
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Old 06-05-2019, 07:12 AM
 
Location: Aliso Viejo, Orange County, CA
4,975 posts, read 6,375,976 times
Reputation: 4090
I have next to no knowledge about Africa, but how can anyone not notice that things are changing? This looks intriguing:

Africa’s industrialization under the Continental Free Trade Area: Local strategies for global competitiveness

Landry Signé Tuesday, June 4, 2019
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/afric...mpetitiveness/

"The AfCFTA and Agenda 2063 hope to reverse Africa’s premature deindustrialization and tap into the vast number of manufacturing opportunities that persist, including in software, auto components, industrial and business machinery, chemicals, agro-processing, and clothing and footwear subsectors, among others. Indeed, some countries already claim advantages in certain subsectors."

"Overall, the stereotypical narrative that African countries are limited to producing and trading goods for external markets is not representative of the continent’s improving supply and demand statistics."

Also, keep this in mind:

'The biggest change of our time' is happening right now in Africa
https://www.businessinsider.com/afri...umanity-2015-8

"After 2050, Africa is projected to be the only major area that has a continually growing population, meaning that it will house 25% of the global population in 2010 and 39% in 2100."
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