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Old 04-01-2018, 09:37 PM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
6,105 posts, read 1,836,606 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80s_kid View Post
Uh oh, lol. You really about to get killed.

While I don't think they would be like Wakanda...They were certainly better off pre-colonialism. No crappy diseases, no crappy indoctrination. Just doing more research on things and seeing what the Euros said of some African cities....they were anything but backwards. They weren't European but how can one call the Continent and in some instances the very same areas that bred the Moors backwards?
Practically every country has some colonialism. It worked for Singapore and Hong Kong, it could've worked for countries in Africa. Even Japan was backwards before it started it's western modernization.

The biggest lie we tell ourselves is that Africa could be "like wakanda or near wakanda" without colonialism and that's just not true.

Quote:
Analysis of the economies of African states finds that independent states such as Liberia and Ethiopia did not have better economic performance than their post-colonial counterparts. In particular the economic performance of former British colonies was better than both independent states and former French colonies.[34]

Africa's relative poverty predates colonialism. Jared Diamond argues in Guns, Germs, and Steel that Africa has always been poor due to a number of ecological factors affecting historical development. These factors include low population density, lack of domesticated livestock and plants and the North-South orientation of Africa's geography.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econom...ca#Colonialism

Last edited by Rocko20; 04-01-2018 at 09:58 PM..
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Old 04-01-2018, 10:06 PM
Status: "Phillies baseball is MLB dysentery." (set 2 days ago)
 
1,238 posts, read 584,349 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
Practically every country has some colonialism. It worked for Singapore and Hong Kong, it could've worked for countries in Africa. Even Japan was backwards before it started it's western modernization.

The biggest lie we tell ourselves is that Africa could be "like wakanda or near wakanda" without colonialism and that's just not true. Corruption can destroy a country and it's why so many 2nd and 3rd world countries are still struggling, including eastern European countries.
Don't do this man. Nobody talking about Wakanda BS. This is the real world and truth be told, Europeans F'd up that continent. King Leopold of Belgium really is worse than Hitler and the people of Belgium still sell chocolate hands. Almost like a taunt. I'm not even thinking about Wakanda but Alkebulan had many great nations and it's highly insulting to think that there wasn't anything of note on the continent. Again, the Almoravids brought Europeans out of the dark ages, there was an Empire there more vast than the Roman Empire, and lastly Egypt sparked Greece which is regarded as the root of everything great about Western/European culture. All this downing of melanated people from "Africa" is a continuation of the Eugenics movement (only Euro history/present is told in a glorious light while most of everyone else is second or trash....did I get that right?
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Old 04-01-2018, 11:21 PM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
6,105 posts, read 1,836,606 times
Reputation: 8673
Quote:
Originally Posted by 80s_kid View Post
Don't do this man. Nobody talking about Wakanda BS. This is the real world and truth be told, Europeans F'd up that continent. King Leopold of Belgium really is worse than Hitler and the people of Belgium still sell chocolate hands. Almost like a taunt. I'm not even thinking about Wakanda but Alkebulan had many great nations and it's highly insulting to think that there wasn't anything of note on the continent. Again, the Almoravids brought Europeans out of the dark ages, there was an Empire there more vast than the Roman Empire, and lastly Egypt sparked Greece which is regarded as the root of everything great about Western/European culture. All this downing of melanated people from "Africa" is a continuation of the Eugenics movement (only Euro history/present is told in a glorious light while most of everyone else is second or trash....did I get that right?
Again, corruption is one of the main issues of Africa and other 2nd or 3rd world countries.

This notion that Africa would've been better off with no colonialism, again, is not true. There is no evidence to it.

This has nothing to do with racism or eugenics. Playing the race card is pretty funny since I'm African American. Being a victim doesn't get you very far in life. Japan was bombed into Bolivia and pick themselves up and rebuilt.

This black victimization from colonism is no different than the African American victimization from American history. It's a card that can no longer be played.
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Old 04-02-2018, 12:35 AM
 
4,434 posts, read 4,422,235 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
Practically every country has some colonialism. It worked for Singapore and Hong Kong, it could've worked for countries in Africa. Even Japan was backwards before it started it's western modernization.
This whole comment is false,

1. There a different from between a place colonized 2 to 3 centuries ago vs places that still was colonized up to middle of last century. Because the time is closer the effects colonization are more present.

2. Hong Kong, Singapore are city states not large countries. You can't compare Hong Kong a city to the complexity of entire 92,000 to 356,000 sq mi country.

3. Western and Modernization are not the same thing, and there was nothing "backwards" about Japan.





Quote:
The biggest lie we tell ourselves is that Africa could be "like wakanda or near wakanda" without colonialism and that's just not true.
There several weird things about this comment one black panther is a new movie though the comment been around most only recently heard of it, you state this as if something common said " The biggest lie we tell ourselves" who says that? no one says that.

the second as stated before there have many complex and powerful African kingdom though out history I don't have to talk about "wakanda" I could give name of historical states.


The last is generalization Africa is continent not one place. "If Africa wasn't colonize" The more powerful African states would likely took over the lesser themselves. So you probably would had end up with similar situation as Japan and mainland China.
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Old 04-02-2018, 12:43 AM
 
Location: Macao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
Practically every country has some colonialism. It worked for Singapore and Hong Kong, it could've worked for countries in Africa.
Colonialism played itself out in different ways in different places.

Africa and much of South America was more about EXPLOITATION of natural resources. Moving what it offered as quickly as possible through traders and others, with colonial laws that made that possible.

Hong Kong was essentially STOPPED by the massive power of CHINA itself. So the British were forced onto those little islands off the coast, way down at the bottom. Than UK negotiated an arrangement where they could have that land for a century or so. They made HK home, and built it into a massive money-oriented city, all forced into one little spot, while they traded with a huge power that is China. They couldn't so easily just rape China, they were forced to 'deal with' the nation-state of China.

You couldn't have replicated the Hong Kong situation anywhere in Africa.
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Old 04-02-2018, 01:24 AM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
6,105 posts, read 1,836,606 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
This whole comment is false,

1. There a different from between a place colonized 2 to 3 centuries ago vs places that still was colonized up to middle of last century. Because the time is closer the effects colonization are more present.

2. Hong Kong, Singapore are city states not large countries. You can't compare Hong Kong a city to the complexity of entire 92,000 to 356,000 sq mi country.

3. Western and Modernization are not the same thing, and there was nothing "backwards" about Japan.
1. Colonization is still colonization. Plenty of countries who were colonized at one point didn’t have much say in the matter. It’s 2018 and we are still going to blame all of Africa on colonization? That’s a convenient excuse to never advance. “Well it’s 3017, but that colonization just cursed us forever. Sorry Africans your lives are hopeless as we will never progress out of our history of colonization.”

2. Hong Kong and Singapore were heavily colonized and are perfect examples of what colonization can do.

3. Japan was isolationist and backwards before America showed up and, with force, demanded trade. Then Japan sent scientists, intellectuals, teachers, engineers, students, doctors, lawyers, etc to study the west and teach Japan how to westernize their country and it worked. The rest was history.
Quote:
The sudden westernization, once it was adopted, changed almost all areas of Japanese society, ranging from armaments, arts, education, etiquette, fashion, health, justice, politics, language, etc. The Japanese government sent students to Western countries to observe and learn their practices, and also paid "foreign advisors" in a variety of fields to come to Japan to educate the populace. For instance, the judicial system and constitution were largely modeled on those of Germany. The government also outlawed customs linked to Japan's feudal past, such as publicly displaying and wearing katana and the top knot, both of which were characteristic of the samurai class, which was abolished together with the caste system. This would later bring the Meiji government into conflict with the sam
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_of_Japan
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
There several weird things about this comment one black panther is a new movie though the comment been around most only recently heard of it, you state this as if something common said " The biggest lie we tell ourselves" who says that? no one says that.
Black people imply it all the time. Everyday I’m supposed to be reminded how evil white people are and how they are responsible for all the problems black people face.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
the second as stated before there have many complex and powerful African kingdom though out history I don't have to talk about "wakanda" I could give name of historical states.
Clearly they weren’t powerful enough to prevent colonialism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
The last is generalization Africa is continent not one place. "If Africa wasn't colonize" The more powerful African states would likely took over the lesser themselves. So you probably would had end up with similar situation as Japan and mainland China.
This thread is about Africa, just check the thread title.
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Old 04-02-2018, 01:38 AM
 
4,434 posts, read 4,422,235 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
Again, corruption is one of the main issues of Africa and other 2nd or 3rd world countries.

This notion that Africa would've been better off with no colonialism, again, is not true. There is no evidence to it.

corruption after colonization.

And this biggest error most people with your world view have, colonization remove African leaders or even dynasty of rulers who were dedicated to the growth of their state. 'no evidence" mean while there literally is.

Some Political systems that where going for Hundreds of years. This bring more pressure to politicians or even citizens to live up to the legacy of that nation.

corruption come when leaders are not loyal to their people or state, colonization created bolder that where meaningless.

This creates problem your asking leaders to be loyal to Nigeria, Ghana, Kenya and etc places that where just thrown together. Instead of places that would organically grown where there honor to with hold.



Quote:
This has nothing to do with racism or eugenics. Playing the race card is pretty funny since I'm African American. Being a victim doesn't get you very far in life. Japan was bombed into Bolivia and pick themselves up and rebuilt.

This black victimization from colonism is no different than the African American victimization from American history. It's a card that can no longer be played.
This is funny, there's this thing by the alt right where they are just throwing talking point hoping they obfuscate the debated.

Racism is the belief that an other racial groups are inferior to others, as long as you express some form of that belief it's racism. If you hear a lot of black people telling you this enough that you expect a 'card" that should tell you something about yourself. If you stop playing the game maybe you wouldn't the card. anyways

Japan goes back to my topic above, Japan is an on going culture.

two hundred years ago you had the Ashanti empire, that was interrupted then colonial governors who care little about the area, Now modern Ghana that didn't exist. This is very different from Japan situation.
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Old 04-02-2018, 01:46 AM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
6,105 posts, read 1,836,606 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post

You couldn't have replicated the Hong Kong situation anywhere in Africa.
Yes you could if the colonial powers never left. Singapore, Hong Kong, Japan, South Korea, etc. all depended on westernization or colonization. As I pointed out, Japan engaged in westernization to modernize their county. It wasn’t about race or eugenics. It was about “Wow they have cannons and ships yet we only have small boats, let’s change that.”

If someone beat you to the finish line and showed you how to do it, would you follow their path or continue doing it your own way?

Better question, at what point will Africans and African Americans no longer blame their problems on someone else? As an ancestor of American slavery, I’d love to have some slavery reparations but I guess I better be a productive member of society and live my life to the fullest until that happens. Which means I can no longer blame any history or white man for my current state of affairs.

I understand the exploitation Africa faced. I understand the exploitation American slaves faced which was the foundation that helped catapult America’s economy into a superpower. The problem is that every year that passes, becomes another year that we can no longer use these instances as an excuse for lack of social advancement.

Last edited by Rocko20; 04-02-2018 at 02:14 AM..
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Old 04-02-2018, 01:53 AM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
6,105 posts, read 1,836,606 times
Reputation: 8673
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
corruption after colonization.

And this biggest error most people with your world view have, colonization remove African leaders or even dynasty of rulers who were dedicated to the growth of their state. 'no evidence" mean while there literally is.

Some Political systems that where going for Hundreds of years. This bring more pressure to politicians or even citizens to live up to the legacy of that nation.

corruption come when leaders are not loyal to their people or state, colonization created bolder that where meaningless.

This creates problem your asking leaders to be loyal to Nigeria, Ghana, Kenya and etc places that where just thrown together. Instead of places that would organically grown where there honor to with hold.
Last time I checked these African leaders sold their own people into slavery.

Well the silver lining was that I was born and raised poor in Texas instead of poor in Western Africa so thank you African leaders for selling my ancestors for some gold and jewels.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
This is funny, there's this thing by the alt right where they are just throwing talking point hoping they obfuscate the debated.

Racism is the belief that an other racial groups are inferior to others, as long as you express some form of that belief it's racism. If you hear a lot of black people telling you this enough that you expect a 'card" that should tell you something about yourself. If you stop playing the game maybe you wouldn't the card. anyways

Japan goes back to my topic above, Japan is an on going culture.

two hundred years ago you had the Ashanti empire, that was interrupted then colonial governors who care little about the area, Now modern Ghana that didn't exist. This is very different from Japan situation.
Well, I’m an educated black man and veteran. It’s kind of hard to be racist against my own race. However I did have to reject the anti-intellectual culture that is so prevalent in my community to get to this point. So I guess you’ll have to just resort to calling me an Uncle Tom.

Sadly I’ll be in the group of Ben Carson, Colin Powell, Clarence Thomas, Alan West, Thomas Sowell, and all the other black sucessful conservatives. Poor me.
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Old 04-02-2018, 02:34 AM
 
Location: Macao
15,951 posts, read 36,196,266 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
If someone beat you to the finish line and showed you how to do it, would you follow their path or continue doing it your own way?
I see where you are going with things...and the argument is clear and logical.

But, there are a ton of LITTLE THINGS that get in the way. Since this is an Africa thread, we'll use Africa. The western countries systematically put things in place to continue to exploit the continent. The World Bank likes to open up foreign countries to western corporations. They give some huge LOAN with high interests to build a damn project in say Uganda, for example. Than multitudes of people with high salaries come in from europe, usa, and get huge consultant fees, than construction companies come in from usa, europe again, and charge high rates again....paying for their airfare, their security, their 4x4 trucks to get to the sites, their staff of cooks and staffing resources, on and on, and high western prices - with a corruption that gives them the high end of all things. Than the World Bank and international organizations with corporate lobbyist figure out other ways to legally take all the resources and money, charging the Africa gov't with the high bills. They are in debt for a millenium. The cycle continues.

The only real way for AFRICA to take that model and get ahead...was if somehow they could get enough money, and try to do it someone else, using that same model. That IS the model, after all.

We can't really say that X people confined within a specific country are just lazy or unwilling or uninterested. You can view any BBC Africa News show, and see tons of entrepreneurs trying to make a difference. But, when Western Country XYZ gets all the contract bids, all the consultants flying in, all this and that, as dictated by World Bank or this-and-that giving the loans. It's a cycle.

I see tons of Africans from the African continent eager to be MBA graduates and get ahead...following the model. Things could work out for them on a personal level, but as a nation, these countries are financially doomed and sunk and heavily in debt...with leader that are quickly overthrown due to a whole host of reasons - u.s govt covert opertions sometimes, world corporations interests - foreign oil companies in nigeria for example, their money talks louder than anything else, etc. They have a louder say than the gov't itself, as those foreign corporations have more capital and money than the gov'ts they work in.

Last edited by Tiger Beer; 04-02-2018 at 02:53 AM..
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