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Old 01-09-2018, 01:24 PM
 
4,454 posts, read 5,746,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwardA View Post
Africa is projected to contain 4 billion people by the end of the century. In theory there should be enough arable land to feed these people but I wouldn't hold my breath on that happening.

I'll be dead and gone by then, so not my problem really. Also a quick look at Ethiopia's GDP per capita as per the World bank is $700 or half of Kenya's. This is a country that was never colonized by the Europeans. There also appears to be some major political disturbances, detentions and a general media and internet black out of the country.

If Ethiopia was a stock I'd short it.
Well Ethiopia is a one party state. In addition most people are rural. Alsoa large majority of people there are under 18 years old so it is experiencing a population explosion. Actually the country was occupied by Italy in the 1930s until the early 1940s., and one method Italy used was the use of poisonous gas on dissidents.

Actually China is the biggest foreign investor in Ethiopia and is currently project building a railway from the capital to the sea. It also created the first light rail in the capital as well. Overall China is today biggest investor in Africa. It has now even created the first overseas Chinese naval base in Africa as well, that is very close to Ethiopia.

Kenya is the same and it's the Chinese that are building railway lines there at the moment.

Of course growing economies are not ending poverty however it is increasingly being dominated by Chinese investments. I sure China will get someone in return such as generous mining rights, etc.

Last edited by other99; 01-09-2018 at 02:05 PM..
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Old 01-09-2018, 02:27 PM
 
Location: BC Canada
831 posts, read 934,304 times
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Certainly the West has had it's ups and downs when considering human rights but the trajectory has always been advancement in tandem with human/civil rights gains.

Look what has happened to human/civil rights compared to the beginnings of the Industrial revolution of just 200 years ago. The problem is that nearly no African or Muslim countries acknowledge this as many African countries are actually heading in the wrong direction particularly with gay rights. Africa will also never relieve itself of it's huge intellectual flight as long as the countries themselves continue to have truly barbaric practises and mentalities. The best and university educated are uniformly liberal in their thoughts and deeds and they cannot enjoy that freedom in Africa or the Muslim world so they flee to countries that offer it. The educated may even make more money if they worked in Saudi Arabia than many Western countries but they don't head there but rather to the human rights leaders of the West.

These economic forums stress infrastructure and health/education which certainly are very important for economic advancement but when discussing development do not include human rights as a foundation of development both economic and social and yet it is the very foundation of development.
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Old 01-09-2018, 02:55 PM
 
4,454 posts, read 5,746,770 times
Reputation: 2186
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooguy View Post
Certainly the West has had it's ups and downs when considering human rights but the trajectory has always been advancement in tandem with human/civil rights gains.

Look what has happened to human/civil rights compared to the beginnings of the Industrial revolution of just 200 years ago. The problem is that nearly no African or Muslim countries acknowledge this as many African countries are actually heading in the wrong direction particularly with gay rights. Africa will also never relieve itself of it's huge intellectual flight as long as the countries themselves continue to have truly barbaric practises and mentalities. The best and university educated are uniformly liberal in their thoughts and deeds and they cannot enjoy that freedom in Africa or the Muslim world so they flee to countries that offer it. The educated may even make more money if they worked in Saudi Arabia than many Western countries but they don't head there but rather to the human rights leaders of the West.

These economic forums stress infrastructure and health/education which certainly are very important for economic advancement but when discussing development do not include human rights as a foundation of development both economic and social and yet it is the very foundation of development.
Actually South Africa has legalised same sex marriage around the similar time your country legalised it.

The Ottoman Empire which ruled parts of Africa, did decriminalise homosexuality in the 19th century. There are African countries where there never been laws that made same sex activity illegal.

However most people from Africa I have encountered in the West are generally opposed to homosexuality, and some of them are outspoken about it.

Last edited by other99; 01-09-2018 at 03:08 PM..
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Old 01-10-2018, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Maryland
18,624 posts, read 16,437,944 times
Reputation: 6348
Quote:
Originally Posted by other99 View Post
Well Ethiopia is a one party state. In addition most people are rural. Alsoa large majority of people there are under 18 years old so it is experiencing a population explosion. Actually the country was occupied by Italy in the 1930s until the early 1940s., and one method Italy used was the use of poisonous gas on dissidents.

Actually China is the biggest foreign investor in Ethiopia and is currently project building a railway from the capital to the sea. It also created the first light rail in the capital as well. Overall China is today biggest investor in Africa. It has now even created the first overseas Chinese naval base in Africa as well, that is very close to Ethiopia.

Kenya is the same and it's the Chinese that are building railway lines there at the moment.

Of course growing economies are not ending poverty however it is increasingly being dominated by Chinese investments. I sure China will get someone in return such as generous mining rights, etc.
There's this conceit or assumption that China investing in Africa is an unalloyed good. I suppose it better than nothing but China isn't doing this from the goodness of their heart anymore than European colonialists.

Here's a pretty good article on some of the pitfalls of relying on Chinese or foreign investment in general. One thing that stood out to me is how the locals weren't even equipped to perform basic road maintenance. No amount of investment can overcome such deficiencies in human capital.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/24/w...os-santos.html

Quote:
Oil also gave the Angolan government a freedom rarely seen in Africa, allowing it to circumvent Western governments and international lenders — and decide exactly how and what to rebuild. With oil-backed loans negotiated with China, Angola outsourced the country’s reconstruction to state-owned Chinese companies and their subcontractors. Companies from other Portuguese-speaking nations, like Brazil and Portugal, also shared in the building boom.

But the Angolan model of oil-for-infrastructure came with serious drawbacks, experts said. The deals between Angola and its foreign partners lacked transparency and often resulted in projects of poor quality, either because of a lack of oversight or outright corruption.
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Old 01-10-2018, 08:16 AM
 
Location: Maryland
18,624 posts, read 16,437,944 times
Reputation: 6348
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooguy View Post
Certainly the West has had it's ups and downs when considering human rights but the trajectory has always been advancement in tandem with human/civil rights gains.

Look what has happened to human/civil rights compared to the beginnings of the Industrial revolution of just 200 years ago. The problem is that nearly no African or Muslim countries acknowledge this as many African countries are actually heading in the wrong direction particularly with gay rights. Africa will also never relieve itself of it's huge intellectual flight as long as the countries themselves continue to have truly barbaric practises and mentalities. The best and university educated are uniformly liberal in their thoughts and deeds and they cannot enjoy that freedom in Africa or the Muslim world so they flee to countries that offer it. The educated may even make more money if they worked in Saudi Arabia than many Western countries but they don't head there but rather to the human rights leaders of the West.

These economic forums stress infrastructure and health/education which certainly are very important for economic advancement but when discussing development do not include human rights as a foundation of development both economic and social and yet it is the very foundation of development.
Gay rights isn't a major issue. It's an outgrowth of the decadence of the West. It's not crucial to the survival or the growth of man. One of the more vile things of the Obama administration was it's aggressive promotion of the gay agenda overseas.
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:49 AM
 
4,434 posts, read 4,420,404 times
Reputation: 3500
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwardA View Post
The DRC is simply ungovernable there will never be political stability. Liberia was ok when the descendants of the US slaves ran it. Well it was ok for them I suppose. I don't think the indigenous Africans that now run Liberia have the human capital necessary to develop. I mean there are clips of Liberians on Youtube bragging about eating human flesh. They weren't lying and despite the stereotypes cannibalism let alone admitting to it publicly is something that would completely shock most Africans.

Will see what Weah will do. He seems like a good guy that actually cares about the people.
I known a Liberian girl and family and even that would be outrageous to them, remember this is the internet, crazies some times express themselves don't mistake that for the common.

As I said Western countries didn't get to where they are over night, Some Western countries went though decades and even a century after the industrial revolution with civil wars, political suitability and mass poverty until a large middle class and lot of innovations.
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:43 PM
 
4,434 posts, read 4,420,404 times
Reputation: 3500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooguy View Post
Certainly the West has had it's ups and downs when considering human rights but the trajectory has always been advancement in tandem with human/civil rights gains.

Look what has happened to human/civil rights compared to the beginnings of the Industrial revolution of just 200 years ago. The problem is that nearly no African or Muslim countries acknowledge this as many African countries are actually heading in the wrong direction particularly with gay rights. Africa will also never relieve itself of it's huge intellectual flight as long as the countries themselves continue to have truly barbaric practises and mentalities. The best and university educated are uniformly liberal in their thoughts and deeds and they cannot enjoy that freedom in Africa or the Muslim world so they flee to countries that offer it. The educated may even make more money if they worked in Saudi Arabia than many Western countries but they don't head there but rather to the human rights leaders of the West.

These economic forums stress infrastructure and health/education which certainly are very important for economic advancement but when discussing development do not include human rights as a foundation of development both economic and social and yet it is the very foundation of development.
Again your rushing time,

The Industrial revolution to the start of WW2. is about 200 years to now 300 years. A lot of African and middle eastern counties gain Independence just last century, So with in time frame during the romantic era in Europe there was massive political instability, Revolution, corruption, mass poverty and wealth gap etc. And way more conservative places with less rights. There wasn't gay rights, there hardly were even women rights in Europe during this time,

Because of the poverty and wealth gap as well as less human rights both civil and workers cause violent Revolution, countries changing political systems repeatedly.


French Revolution 1789

French Revolution of 1830

French Revolution of 1848

German revolutions of 184849

Austro-Prussian War, German Civil War


Revolutions of 1848 in the Italian states

Great Famine Ireland

1905 Russian Revolution

Russia February Revolution 1917

Russia October Revolution 1917

Young Turk Revolution 1908

Romantic nationalism


Europe now is not like the Europe before the World Wars, and late Victorian era. There reason why there was massive immigration out of Europe to Americas 1820 to 1920.

But even in US immgrants often came right back to poverty for a Generation or two

Gilded Age

African nations have to find who they are, get through these civil wars, and go though a Progressive Era to weed out corruption. it took Western nations a hundred years after idea of democracy re popularize 1776/1789, and to near the end of the industrial Revolution to be a more modern first world nation that
they are today.

Progressive Era
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Old 01-11-2018, 05:41 PM
 
12,843 posts, read 4,651,539 times
Reputation: 5214
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
Again your rushing time,

The Industrial revolution to the start of WW2. is about 200 years to now 300 years. A lot of African and middle eastern counties gain Independence just last century, So with in time frame during the romantic era in Europe there was massive political instability, Revolution, corruption, mass poverty and wealth gap etc. And way more conservative places with less rights. There wasn't gay rights, there hardly were even women rights in Europe during this time,

Because of the poverty and wealth gap as well as less human rights both civil and workers cause violent Revolution, countries changing political systems repeatedly.


French Revolution 1789

French Revolution of 1830

French Revolution of 1848

German revolutions of 184849

Austro-Prussian War, German Civil War


Revolutions of 1848 in the Italian states

Great Famine Ireland

1905 Russian Revolution

Russia February Revolution 1917

Russia October Revolution 1917

Young Turk Revolution 1908

Romantic nationalism


Europe now is not like the Europe before the World Wars, and late Victorian era. There reason why there was massive immigration out of Europe to Americas 1820 to 1920.

But even in US immgrants often came right back to poverty for a Generation or two

Gilded Age

African nations have to find who they are, get through these civil wars, and go though a Progressive Era to weed out corruption. it took Western nations a hundred years after idea of democracy re popularize 1776/1789, and to near the end of the industrial Revolution to be a more modern first world nation that
they are today.

Progressive Era
Not really. Singapore and Malaysia started opening up for progress and development right off the bat after independence. You dont need centuries of wars, democracy or whatnot to realize whats good for the country. The African leaders have known this for centuries. Whats good for the country clashes with their own desire to cling to privilege, power and status. Thats the problem. European elites dragged their feet on reform and change. Only intense power struggles between European nations and the threat of total annihilation from competing European powers ensured that the elites opened up for reform and change.
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Old 01-12-2018, 01:09 AM
 
4,434 posts, read 4,420,404 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCALMike View Post
Not really. Singapore and Malaysia started opening up for progress and development right off the bat after independence. You dont need centuries of wars, democracy or whatnot to realize whats good for the country. The African leaders have known this for centuries. Whats good for the country clashes with their own desire to cling to privilege, power and status. Thats the problem. European elites dragged their feet on reform and change. Only intense power struggles between European nations and the threat of total annihilation from competing European powers ensured that the elites opened up for reform and change.
Malaysia is not a first world develop country and Singapore is a city state.

And you miss my point, the road to progress for many country is bumping, Western country themselves didn't just start with social and economical progress and equality.

My point wasn't the country realize that democracy is good or not, Nor has a country have to go though this issues,

My point was democracy is fragile in developing countries where it's a new idea for the given populations and place. This leads to a worst corruption and civil wars. Until the right people come to powers.

This is why France, Germany, Russia kept going though revolution.

As mention a few pages back notice how radically European nation borders change borders 1800 to 1950, these border change were essentially ethnic conflict that this native culture want independence and this native group feel that this there land, when have this political climate it's easier for corruption and civil wars.

The unification of Italian, and German Kingdoms and balkanization of the Ottoman Empire are example of this,

Again from 1800 to 1920 is straight ethnic nationalism.... The ethnic Italian kingdom united, while Ottoman Empire splinter to smaller Ethnic states.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._1800-2008.gif

Now I'm not saying that good...... I'm saying that what happen...

For a nation to thrive the have to be some sense of togetherness and respect across the diversity. African countries were draw up base on colonization not historical groups.

So this present a challenge, The heart of many African conflicts are ethnic conflicts.

For example Nigerian Civil War

As mention above with a political climate like this ........ Crazies and corrupt people can take powers, wolves in Sheep clothing.
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Old 01-12-2018, 07:09 AM
 
12,843 posts, read 4,651,539 times
Reputation: 5214
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
Malaysia is not a first world develop country and Singapore is a city state.

And you miss my point, the road to progress for many country is bumping, Western country themselves didn't just start with social and economical progress and equality.

My point wasn't the country realize that democracy is good or not, Nor has a country have to go though this issues,

My point was democracy is fragile in developing countries where it's a new idea for the given populations and place. This leads to a worst corruption and civil wars. Until the right people come to powers.

This is why France, Germany, Russia kept going though revolution.

As mention a few pages back notice how radically European nation borders change borders 1800 to 1950, these border change were essentially ethnic conflict that this native culture want independence and this native group feel that this there land, when have this political climate it's easier for corruption and civil wars.

The unification of Italian, and German Kingdoms and balkanization of the Ottoman Empire are example of this,

Again from 1800 to 1920 is straight ethnic nationalism.... The ethnic Italian kingdom united, while Ottoman Empire splinter to smaller Ethnic states.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._1800-2008.gif

Now I'm not saying that good...... I'm saying that what happen...

For a nation to thrive the have to be some sense of togetherness and respect across the diversity. African countries were draw up base on colonization not historical groups.

So this present a challenge, The heart of many African conflicts are ethnic conflicts.

For example Nigerian Civil War

As mention above with a political climate like this ........ Crazies and corrupt people can take powers, wolves in Sheep clothing.
Simply not true. You are grossly overestimating the influence of regular people in these events. And dismissing Malaysia's and Singapore's massive economic development right off the bat with just a sentence is ridiculous. Malaysia is as rich as Portugal, a western European country, while 60 years ago it was dirt poor. Singapore likewise. The historical events you talk about is not the result of people going crazy based on ethnicity. They are strategic power struggles between nations. They are power games between national elites.

You seem to subscribe to the idea that Africa should have thousands of tiny tribal states based on tribal allegiance. Meanwhile, you are totally ignoring that other countries, like Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia etc have seen massive economic development since the 1960s. They have hundreds of languages and different ethnicities. The reality is that the reason African countries have developed so slowly is because the elites in those countries simply do not want it. Just like the elites in Asian countries and elites in Europe did not want it. They resisted it. Because progress means change and that is not something people with power, status and privilege are interested in. Unless they are forced to.
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