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Old 01-04-2018, 12:36 AM
 
Location: BC Canada
987 posts, read 1,305,532 times
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I know I am going to get racked over the goals for this and be accused of being an arrogant Westerner by many African here but...................Africa will never fully develop under it's current social and political structure, never.

Something that Africans and all of the Muslim world refuse to acknowledge is that economic advancement and socio-economic equality cannot be realized in countries that do not accept advanced civil and human rights. It has never happened before and it won't. The only exceptions are small countries that have the luck of sitting on black gold or were artificially propped up by countries due to their strategic value ie Singapore.

Economic growth requires a free thinking environment where ideas and knowledge are freely exchanged. It is no coincidence that the countries in the world with the highest incomes and quality of life are also the ones with the best human rights record. Human Rights are at the very foundation of economic growth where differences are welcomed and the rights of people to the necessities of life are guaranteed such as education, women's emancipation, rights of thought, expression, the press, LGBT, the disabled, different ethnic and religious beliefs. In such an environment people are liberated and free to develop, challenge, and embrace both new and old ideas to their highest level lifting all boats and not just a few. The emphasis on human/civil rights also makes a country's population more aware of inequities in the public sphere leading to a decline in nepotism, corruption, and socio-economic stratification.
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Old 01-04-2018, 01:00 AM
 
Location: Macao
16,265 posts, read 43,003,810 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
What do you think of this?[/url]
Economic indicators are generally connected to corporate profits, growth, etc.

Corporations making money doesn't end poverty. Corporations making money usually mean that the richest of that society are making money. When economies improve in somewhere say Africa, let's use 'Kenya', it just means that more and more corporations are choosing to do business there, and any foreigner or Kenyan with the education and skills to be a 'player' within that corporation is going to 'do well' for himself/herself.

But, that has no connection with 'poverty'. Usually that economic growth just means the local gov't and society has to create more security, so the few that are benefitting are protected legally from those who aren't.

If certain gov'ts redistrubute that wealth, than it might alleviate some of the gov't demand to create security. If the gov't cannot redistribute wealth, or give something to the have-nots, than the poverty remains.
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Old 01-04-2018, 02:13 AM
 
4,434 posts, read 6,953,354 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooguy View Post
I know I am going to get racked over the goals for this and be accused of being an arrogant Westerner by many African here but...................Africa will never fully develop under it's current social and political structure, never.

Something that Africans and all of the Muslim world refuse to acknowledge is that economic advancement and socio-economic equality cannot be realized in countries that do not accept advanced civil and human rights. It has never happened before and it won't. The only exceptions are small countries that have the luck of sitting on black gold or were artificially propped up by countries due to their strategic value ie Singapore.

Economic growth requires a free thinking environment where ideas and knowledge are freely exchanged. It is no coincidence that the countries in the world with the highest incomes and quality of life are also the ones with the best human rights record. Human Rights are at the very foundation of economic growth where differences are welcomed and the rights of people to the necessities of life are guaranteed such as education, women's emancipation, rights of thought, expression, the press, LGBT, the disabled, different ethnic and religious beliefs. In such an environment people are liberated and free to develop, challenge, and embrace both new and old ideas to their highest level lifting all boats and not just a few. The emphasis on human/civil rights also makes a country's population more aware of inequities in the public sphere leading to a decline in nepotism, corruption, and socio-economic stratification.
Singapore is largely a one party state and always been that way. Also punishments involve caning. Also there is restriction on freedom of speech.However Singapore citizens are mostly well educated. That is different for most African countries where there are still large amount of illiteracy exists. Some Oil rich Arab countries offer free education, housing and health care for all of their citizens. China is rapidly growing economy and with it a greatly expanded middle class since the late 1970;s and it is still a one party state and restrictions on freedom of speech. Of course China sees Singapore as its role model rather than the USA and the West. So restrictions on human rights does not necessary mean that countries economic advancement are impeded.

In 1950's South Korea was at the same level of GDP as Ghana. South Korea had a national leadership focused on the development of state institutions that were focused on rapid, technology-intensive economic development. Ghana has no programmes of similar nature on record.

Taiwan’s economy underperformed under Japanese colonial rule between 1895 and 1945. In the 1950s the country was an agrarian economy with the same living standard as Congo. But by 2010 it had overtaken its former colonial master to become the number one producer of semi-conductors in the world.https://theconversation.com/whats-ne...25-years-61418

It the way the African countries governments that handle their countries is a reason why Africa is still undeveloped. You are right much of Africa will still be behind under the present stage of government.

Last edited by other99; 01-04-2018 at 02:24 AM..
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Old 01-04-2018, 03:47 AM
 
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They are not ending poverty because of the mind-blowing african demographics. Nigeria will overhaul the USA at the end of the century. It's just not sustainable.
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Old 01-04-2018, 01:16 PM
 
Location: BC Canada
987 posts, read 1,305,532 times
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You mention S.Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore as exceptions but actually those were 3 main countries I was thinking about. All 3 enjoyed MASSIVE foreign investment and especially economic aid after WW11 because they were 3 countries that were up against communist regimes and the US was eager to prop their economies to stem the communist threat. Yes China is advancing but is still a poor country.

Humans and their socio-economic environment cannot thrive and reach their potential until the people themselves are allowed to do the same and that means a strong human/civil rights record and agenda. The countries with the best human rights records and greatest socio-economic equity are also the richest and the opposite is also true. People can whitewash that all they like or call it " Western arrogance" but it doesn't change the fact that it has always been true and always will be.
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Old 01-04-2018, 04:21 PM
 
4,819 posts, read 6,053,782 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooguy View Post
I know I am going to get racked over the goals for this and be accused of being an arrogant Westerner by many African here but...................Africa will never fully develop under it's current social and political structure, never.

Something that Africans and all of the Muslim world refuse to acknowledge is that economic advancement and socio-economic equality cannot be realized in countries that do not accept advanced civil and human rights. It has never happened before and it won't. The only exceptions are small countries that have the luck of sitting on black gold or were artificially propped up by countries due to their strategic value ie Singapore.

Economic growth requires a free thinking environment where ideas and knowledge are freely exchanged. It is no coincidence that the countries in the world with the highest incomes and quality of life are also the ones with the best human rights record. Human Rights are at the very foundation of economic growth where differences are welcomed and the rights of people to the necessities of life are guaranteed such as education, women's emancipation, rights of thought, expression, the press, LGBT, the disabled, different ethnic and religious beliefs. In such an environment people are liberated and free to develop, challenge, and embrace both new and old ideas to their highest level lifting all boats and not just a few. The emphasis on human/civil rights also makes a country's population more aware of inequities in the public sphere leading to a decline in nepotism, corruption, and socio-economic stratification.
I wish this was true but modern embracing of diversity is a very new thing even for Western nations, not that i don't agree with cause I do, but I'm saying all this only recently for the West as well.

My belief is a lot of non western nations are going though what western nations did 1 to 2 hundred years ago but didn't, because they colonized by western nation


For instance after the French Revolution it wasn't s move sailing towards a democracy. France kept going back and forth with that was essential a dictatorships. Especially during The Terror but even afterward for nearly first a 100 years from 1799- 1870

France
French Revolution 1789–1799
Kingdom of France 1791–92
First Republic 1792–1804
First Empire 1804–14
Restoration 1814–30
July Monarchy 1830–1848
Second Republic 1848–52
Second Empire 1852–70
Third Republic 1870–1940

Is that not what some Africa countries doing?

Not to mention Mussolini and etc dictators that existed in Europe.

http://comandosupremo.com/wp-content...mfront_org.jpg

In the from 1850 to the 1940's there slums in American and Europe cities. This change with developement of public housing, cities better beatification and waste mange systems,

https://blogs.baruch.cuny.edu/his100...arly-1900s.jpg


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6f/ef...d0f265f960.jpg

This exactly happening in some Africa country regarding civil wars, Corruptions.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Spgdy3HkcSs

I can further The World Wars are essentially ethnic tension in Europe. Balkanization is tribalism,


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._1800-2008.gif




http://www.murphymeadow.com/26/map-o...-cities-27.jpg

The boreders in Africa where draw up by colonial history, just going by what happen Europe 1800 to 1950. This a perfect storm to create ethnic tensions....


https://i0.wp.com/www.africantriangl...vg1_.png?ssl=1

My point modernly there more civil rights, less corruption and hardly any civil wars in the US and Europe.

but historically there was vast issue in these areas as much if not more than current Africa, this is because modern democracy was new to Europe and US. It wasn't shine at the beginning there was growing pains. Over times these issue where work out.


Africa countries and a few other in the world seem to be going though these issue now...... as being postpone by colonization. Modern democracy is new to Africa as result we are seeing the growing pains now and African nations have figure to work these issues out.
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Old 01-05-2018, 09:23 AM
 
4,434 posts, read 6,953,354 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooguy View Post
You mention S.Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore as exceptions but actually those were 3 main countries I was thinking about. All 3 enjoyed MASSIVE foreign investment and especially economic aid after WW11 because they were 3 countries that were up against communist regimes and the US was eager to prop their economies to stem the communist threat. Yes China is advancing but is still a poor country.

Humans and their socio-economic environment cannot thrive and reach their potential until the people themselves are allowed to do the same and that means a strong human/civil rights record and agenda. The countries with the best human rights records and greatest socio-economic equity are also the richest and the opposite is also true. People can whitewash that all they like or call it " Western arrogance" but it doesn't change the fact that it has always been true and always will be.
Actually China is a really different country than it was under Mao who ruled the country with an iron fist, and private enterprise was banned. Due to that those that could manage to go out mainly went to Honk Kong, Taiwan and Singapore. This was especially true for Wealthy Chinese. These Chinese did help the development of Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore.

Since the death of Mao there been reforms as well as private enterprise. Where as in China there were traditionally problems with feeding everyone, these days there is certainly enough food to feed everyone in China. Also a majority of people now live in urban areas. Still China is a poor country, yet it a country that is 4 times as many people as the USA. Of course there are human rights problems that have impeded the country. It will take time for China to develop democracy as it has never really experienced it before.
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Old 01-05-2018, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Maryland
18,630 posts, read 19,347,192 times
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Originally Posted by Motion View Post
Wouldn't political stability help with that? DRC and Liberia both have recent histories of civil wars. DRC when it was Zaire was being looted by Mobutu. So that stagnated things with that country.
The DRC is simply ungovernable there will never be political stability. Liberia was ok when the descendants of the US slaves ran it. Well it was ok for them I suppose. I don't think the indigenous Africans that now run Liberia have the human capital necessary to develop. I mean there are clips of Liberians on Youtube bragging about eating human flesh. They weren't lying and despite the stereotypes cannibalism let alone admitting to it publicly is something that would completely shock most Africans.

Will see what Weah will do. He seems like a good guy that actually cares about the people.
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Old 01-05-2018, 11:44 AM
 
4,434 posts, read 6,953,354 times
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Originally Posted by EdwardA View Post
The DRC is simply ungovernable there will never be political stability. Liberia was ok when the descendants of the US slaves ran it. Well it was ok for them I suppose. I don't think the indigenous Africans that now run Liberia have the human capital necessary to develop. I mean there are clips of Liberians on Youtube bragging about eating human flesh. They weren't lying and despite the stereotypes cannibalism let alone admitting to it publicly is something that would completely shock most Africans.

Will see what Weah will do. He seems like a good guy that actually cares about the people.
Well Ethiopia was like the DRC at one time, as it was suffering from wars and famine and that was not so long ago.

Ethiopia In 2000, Ethiopia, the second-most populous country in Africa, was the third-poorest country in the world. Its annual GDP per capita was only about $650. More than 50% of the population lived below the global poverty line, the highest poverty rate in the world.

from 2000 to 2016, Ethiopia was the third-fastest growing country of 10 million or more people in the world, as measured by GDP per capita. The country’s poverty rate fell to 31% by 2011 (the latest year Ethiopia’s poverty level was assessed by the World Bank).https://qz.com/1109739/ethiopia-is-o...-in-the-world/

However a pressing problem that country is experiencing is a fast growing population, like like much of the rest of African countries. Also the government is authoritarian, and it could bring the country with chaos in the future.
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Old 01-09-2018, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Maryland
18,630 posts, read 19,347,192 times
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Originally Posted by other99 View Post
Well Ethiopia was like the DRC at one time, as it was suffering from wars and famine and that was not so long ago.

Ethiopia In 2000, Ethiopia, the second-most populous country in Africa, was the third-poorest country in the world. Its annual GDP per capita was only about $650. More than 50% of the population lived below the global poverty line, the highest poverty rate in the world.

from 2000 to 2016, Ethiopia was the third-fastest growing country of 10 million or more people in the world, as measured by GDP per capita. The country’s poverty rate fell to 31% by 2011 (the latest year Ethiopia’s poverty level was assessed by the World Bank).https://qz.com/1109739/ethiopia-is-o...-in-the-world/

However a pressing problem that country is experiencing is a fast growing population, like like much of the rest of African countries. Also the government is authoritarian, and it could bring the country with chaos in the future.
Africa is projected to contain 4 billion people by the end of the century. In theory there should be enough arable land to feed these people but I wouldn't hold my breath on that happening.

I'll be dead and gone by then, so not my problem really. Also a quick look at Ethiopia's GDP per capita as per the World bank is $700 or half of Kenya's. This is a country that was never colonized by the Europeans. There also appears to be some major political disturbances, detentions and a general media and internet black out of the country.

If Ethiopia was a stock I'd short it.
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