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Old 08-13-2018, 01:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ner View Post
Yeah, I've heard that Ethiopia has been doing well raising the standard of living (relative to the rest of Africa). I hope the country continues to improve living conditions. I find that country and its history fascinating. By and large Ethiopians , especially the Amhara (who are on average about 30% genetically Middle Eastern), don't see themselves as the same race as the Bantu, Yoruboid, etc. peoples of Africa. The Amhara and Tigre are the only *black* Africans to have developed a writing system / orthography independently of those evil European colonizers. I think also they were Christian before even Europe was and certainly before the rest of the continent was lifted out of its paganist / animist belief systems, with their insistence on black magic, withcraft, voodoo, etc.

I'm glad Switzerland is prospering as well and I hope it also continues to do well. Maybe being outside the EU helps them.

I don't think it's about genetic inferiority or superiority, as there are different kinds of intelligences and aptitudes.

Where are all the non-black sprinters at the elite level? Do they just need to work harder?
Different environments call for different modes of survival.

For example, African homes are much simpler than in Europe.

Does that mean they are less intelligent in building homes or does it mean that in Africa it makes more sense to make a home out of straw due to the harsh and hot climate compared to Europe where it is cold and you have to make more house more complex.

London for example is closer to oceans of water therefore making it more suitable for it to be a place to trade versus an isolated part of the world like parts of Africa where hunter gatherer societies might thrive better. In addition the Bantus were adept at trading and traded with the Arabs, Indians and the Portuguese since they were close to bodies of water.
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Old 08-13-2018, 01:35 PM
 
Location: DC metropolitan area
632 posts, read 285,611 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homenj View Post
Different environments call for different modes of survival.
Maybe if you lived in a cold climate where you know that you would die if you didn't plan for winter made you a better planner (food, fuel for heat), and if you lived in the tropics where you could just pick a banana off a tree or kill some bush meat any time of the year, such planning was superfluous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by homenj View Post
For example, African homes are much simpler than in Europe.
I don't think there was a single structure more than one story high in all of pre-colonial sub-Saharan Africa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by homenj View Post
Does that mean they are less intelligent in building homes or does it mean that in Africa it makes more sense to make a home out of straw due to the harsh and hot climate compared to Europe where it is cold and you have to make more house more complex.
Good point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by homenj View Post
London for example is closer to oceans of water therefore making it more suitable for it to be a place to trade versus an isolated part of the world like parts of Africa where hunter gatherer societies might thrive better. In addition the Bantus were adept at trading and traded with the Arabs, Indians and the Portuguese since they were close to bodies of water.
There is a lot of coast in Africa, including Madagascar! From an Afro-centric point of view, Africa was and is not isolated.

The Bantus of Zanzibar / present-day Tanzania were enslaved by the Arabs: http://www.zanzibarpackage.com/slavery-zanzibar. Some Bantus were simply intermediaries in this trade, handing over the "brethren" to the Arab slave traders.

Last edited by 2ner; 08-13-2018 at 02:14 PM..
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Old 08-13-2018, 07:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by EdwardA View Post
African debt has been forgiven by European powers as recently as 10 years ago. I know the British colonies operated at a deficit with the exception of India, meaning that all of their possession in Africa were operated at a loss. I don't know if that's the case is for the French, Belgians or Portuguese though.
The only colony held by Belgium (The enormous Congo) definitely operated as a profit. Belgium's King Leopold was a horrible monster whose ruthless and brutal exploitation of native Congolese to gather ivory and rubber, caused millions of deaths. He claimed he was saving their souls by having them baptized. The natives got nothing material in return.

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Leopold's_Ghost
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Old 08-13-2018, 09:57 PM
 
Location: Sandpoint, Idaho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
A number of countries in Africa have leaders who simply hoard profits made from say the oil or natural resources industries in their private bank accounts in Europe. So simply writing large checks would probably benefit just a few people.

That doesn't mean that nothing should be done. Western nations can work with African nations to create good governance and to build up infrastructure in these nations, etc. That means holding leaders around the world accountable to good goverance and letting them know if they want to do business with the West or have economic relations they have to fight to end corruption and respect human rights.

Or simply find better ways to invest in Africa that don't involve simply taking profits back to Europe.
^^This
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Old 08-15-2018, 12:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Giannis View Post
I already know that many fellow Europeans will reject the idea that I will promote, but the main (if not the only) reason that Africa today is starving to death, and the main reason particular European countries are rich, is the colonialism previous centuries

https://www.theguardian.com/global-d...lk-reparations

If countries like uk or france paid their debt to Africa, that would explode their national debts to 200% if not more of their GDP, but i think it's fair to pay it some day.

what do you think?
Existing national debt and the damage of colonialism are too completely separate topics. Upon independence most African countries had little debt. In the interim they borrowed billions, much of it squandered on unproductive vanity projects, with much of the rest sent to Europe.

Look at Angola as an example.

And with all of the dictatorships and corruption and power drunk brutality which has impacted much of post colonial Africa they aren't going to get reparations. Not when it can be proven that such will not be spent on the people but instead used to fund an air force or villas in California and Switzerland.

Asia also suffered colonialism yet look at them today. Malaysia and Singapore, former British colonies and impoverished at the end of their colonial era. Yet look at them today! South Korea now seen as a developed economy, in fact using some metrics, even more advanced than the USA!
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Old 08-15-2018, 12:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giannis View Post
The debt that was forgiven is nothing compared to the crimes that have been committed from 17th to 20th century
From the 16th to the 19th centuries the crimes were committed with the complicity of African elites. Having indulged in self destructive behaviors colonization became easy, as the Africans weakened themselves and fell behind technologically. The elites even let their manufacturing sectors collapse as they rapaciously consumed European goods.

The textile and metal industries, thriving in the 16th century, were virtually nonexistent by the 19th. Proceeds from the sale of products (including enslaved peoples) weren't re-invested into their economies. It was used to purchase weapons, and even today some countries exhibit this .

You need to know that prior to the late 19th century West Africans controlled their territories and determined the thrust of their economies. They were NOT vassals of the Europeans. They couldn't be because Europeans couldn't handle tropical diseases until the late 19thC so couldn't sustain colonies in the face of hostile locals.

Now are you telling me that South Sudan represents an example of good governance and that Africans aren't to blame for what happens there?
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Old 08-15-2018, 01:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giannis View Post
Living in a tribal way would be Africans' problem (which I think it's much better than starving to death, like they do today thanks to Europeans) the way it's European problem if they give aid to Africa or not

Europe (meaning particular countries) should pay ITS DEBTS TO AFRICA, not pretending that they help through aid
The pre modern world was one vulnerable to famine and Africans were NOT exempt. In fact the French Revolution was motivated by a famine which was occurring at the time and the Potato Famines of Ireland have been well documented.

It is a debate as to whether Africa would or wouldn't have been better off without colonization. Note that nations which weren't colonized (Ethiopia) aren't the shining examples of prosperity in sub Saharan Africa.
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Old 08-15-2018, 01:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
Britain is one of the few countries in the world that adheres and even exceeds foreign and developmental aid targets.

[
First off. Please don't talk about UK hurricane relief in the Caribbean last year. The less said about that the better. Put it this way. As lousy as US assistance was to the US territories UK assistance was even worse. It is through grit and determination and help from neighboring islands that Anguilla and the BVI are recovering.

Secondly foreign aid is export credit. Borrowing nations must use donor nations products and services, even when local sources are available, cheaper and having greater potential for multiplier impacts. To the extent that these funds are provided in the form of a loan the borrowing nation then has to service debt which was used to procure these donor nation goods and services.

So much of this "assistance" never left the UK. I remember one of these projects where they insisted that UK consultants be used. These people parked themselves in the local business library and plagiarized work that locals had done.....and then got paid very well. And I over heard their conversations.
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Old 08-15-2018, 01:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by gtt99 View Post
Europe is paying dearly to Africa by accepting hordes of African immigrants (legal and illegal) into their countries.
Quite appropriate given that the arrivals of Europeans in Africa greatly disturbed the existing relationships. Do you know that prior to colonization there were prosperous Ghanaian and Nigerian merchants and farmers who were driven out of business by rules aimed to benefit UK corporate interests? The cocoa and palm oil farmers lost the ability to control their prices and were prevented from engaging in value added activities.


I am not going to say that the colonial experience was all negative but there was a whole lot of negative that happened. The holocaust which occurred in Namibia in the early 20th C and the brutality of the Belgians in their colonies are mere examples.


A whole economic system was established whereby pricing and market access was determined by European and then North American interests with these colonies being price takers.


The Caribbean has a more positive post colonial experience. During the colonial era as many as ONE in FIVE babies died prior to their first birthday, many from malnutrition or diseases connecting to sanitation issues. Now the infant mortality rates in many islands are only slightly behind rich nations.
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Old 08-15-2018, 01:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
I like China's approach, even if they require that a large percentage of workers be Chinese; I'd certainly like to see more local employment.
The European/North American post colonial exploitation was bad but the Chinese are even worse. And now they are entering the Caribbean. Do you know that 50% of Jamaican construction workers lost their jobs because of the Chinese and the government can do nothing about it because they lack the funds, independent of the Chinese, to build and maintain infrastructure.
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