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Old 03-16-2009, 07:04 PM
 
Location: Ohio
1,008 posts, read 869,206 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
I never said Zimbabwe had it good at this moment. Zimbabwe has it very bad. There is no question. Yes, Mugabe was a very bad leader. I will give everyone that. With that said, this is the point few people are getting to. European explorers were going into Africa for its resources and taking the continent over. The rush for Africa at the 1885 Berlin Conference was a rush for controlling Africa's resources. Sure, some parts of Africa benefited, but there was a price for that. People lost their nations. What I was talking about was that Zimbabwe could rule its own people before they were being invaded. The question was about Africans being able to govern Africa. Before slaves were being drained out of Africa, Africa was doing better as it had flourishing kingdoms. Africa was drained of its wealth, human and material. Africa was basically bled until it had to depend on colonial powers. Sure, technology was brought to them, but they were also taking over other nations. If people want to bring Christianity and technology to people, it should be done for the purpose for helping other people, not as some ploy to take over some nations. The British Empire got wealthy because it took over other nations all over the world. France, Germany, and Portugal got wealthy the same way.


There is something Europe has always had an ample supply of, intellectual/human capital. Even when resources have been low, space has been limited, they have always had creative talent and innovation, the sort that enabled them to develop the weapons and armies with which to take resources from those who were still crapping in the same water from which they drank.

 
Old 03-16-2009, 07:12 PM
 
72,824 posts, read 62,174,096 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioUberAlles View Post
There is something Europe has always had an ample supply of, intellectual/human capital. Even when resources have been low, space has been limited, they have always had creative talent and innovation, the sort that enabled them to develop the weapons and armies with which to take resources from those who were still crapping in the same water from which they drank.
Yes, Europe has human and intellectual capital. There were also times when Europe was in very bad decline, such as the 14th and 15th centuries. Africa had universities and things like that. Europe lost 1/3 of its population to the plague. The Roman Empire went to crap after 800 years and went into a very bad decline. When Africa went into decline, everyone took advantage of that. If there were travelers who took advantage of Europe during its declining days, Europe might be in Africa's place. Why is it difficult for anyone to admit that Africa has been the place that has been leached and drained of its capital. I didn't see anyone try that with Europe. If that had happened to Europe(before gunpowder reached Europe), Europe might have been in the same place Africa was in.
As for creativeness and limited space, Europe did what it needed for its environment. Africa never had a problem with space.
 
Old 03-16-2009, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Ohio
1,008 posts, read 869,206 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
Yes, Europe has human and intellectual capital. There were also times when Europe was in very bad decline, such as the 14th and 15th centuries. Africa had universities and things like that. Europe lost 1/3 of its population to the plague. The Roman Empire went to crap after 800 years and went into a very bad decline. When Africa went into decline, everyone took advantage of that. If there were travelers who took advantage of Europe during its declining days, Europe might be in Africa's place. Why is it difficult for anyone to admit that Africa has been the place that has been leached and drained of its capital. I didn't see anyone try that with Europe. If that had happened to Europe(before gunpowder reached Europe), Europe might have been in the same place Africa was in.
As for creativeness and limited space, Europe did what it needed for its environment. Africa never had a problem with space.


It's not proper to say that "Africa" had universities, since Egypt is not and never has been part of sub-Saharan Black Africa.

Our discussion is about sub-Saharan Black Africa, not Greco-Phoenician Egypt. Egypt was populated by a ruling class and intellectual class that was ethnically identical to the Romans and Greeks. Carthage is recorded as being a Phoenician colony that was culturally very similar to Greece and to some extent Rome. North Africa is an entirely different world when compared to sub-Saharan Africa.


In our discussion we are dealing with the cultural, technological, and intellectual achievements of Black Africa, of which there are VERY few.
 
Old 03-16-2009, 07:36 PM
 
72,824 posts, read 62,174,096 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioUberAlles View Post
It's not proper to say that "Africa" had universities, since Egypt is not and never has been part of sub-Saharan Black Africa.

Our discussion is about sub-Saharan Black Africa, not Greco-Phoenician Egypt. Egypt was populated by a ruling class and intellectual class that was ethnically identical to the Romans and Greeks. Carthage is recorded as being a Phoenician colony that was culturally very similar to Greece and to some extent Rome. North Africa is an entirely different world when compared to sub-Saharan Africa.


In our discussion we are dealing with the cultural, technological, and intellectual achievements of Black Africa, of which there are VERY few.
The main quesiton was about if Africans could rule Africa. The answer is that it could be. The Songhai Kingdom and the Kingdom of Mali were doing fine as far as governing themselves was concerned.
 
Old 03-16-2009, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Ohio
1,008 posts, read 869,206 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
The main quesiton was about if Africans could rule Africa. The answer is that it could be. The Songhai Kingdom and the Kingdom of Mali were doing fine as far as governing themselves was concerned.

However the Songhai Kingdom fell due almost entirely to a civil war that came as a result of the power vacuum created by the death of their leader in the late 16th century.

It's certainly unfair and inaccurate to even suggest they fell due to outside European interference.

Furthermore, their empire was rather lame when compared to the British, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Belgians, Dutch, etc.
 
Old 03-16-2009, 07:49 PM
 
72,824 posts, read 62,174,096 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioUberAlles View Post
However the Songhai Kingdom fell due almost entirely to a civil war that came as a result of the power vacuum created by the death of their leader in the late 16th century.

It's certainly unfair and inaccurate to even suggest they fell due to outside European interference.

Furthermore, their empire was rather lame when compared to the British, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Belgians, Dutch, etc.
The Roman Empire fell due to alot of infighting and corruption too.
 
Old 03-16-2009, 07:51 PM
 
72,824 posts, read 62,174,096 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioUberAlles View Post
However the Songhai Kingdom fell due almost entirely to a civil war that came as a result of the power vacuum created by the death of their leader in the late 16th century.

It's certainly unfair and inaccurate to even suggest they fell due to outside European interference.

Furthermore, their empire was rather lame when compared to the British, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Belgians, Dutch, etc.
BTW, UK, France, and Portugal weren't doing much better until explorers started sailing around the world and colonizing other nations.
 
Old 03-16-2009, 07:52 PM
 
Location: Ohio
1,008 posts, read 869,206 times
Reputation: 250
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
The Roman Empire fell due to alot of infighting and corruption too.

Your point? I'm not the one trying to blame the problems of an entire continent on outside forces...

Citing the fall of Rome means nothing, since I'm not trying to explain away the fall of Rome as the fault of Africans.

You're trying to blame African problems on outsiders (mostly Europeans).

We're not discussing the fall of Rome, we're discussing civilizations, or lack of them, in Africa.


Furthermore the immediate cause of the fall of Rome was Rome being physically overrun and occupied by invading armies. That was NOT the case with the fall of the African empire in Mali.
 
Old 03-16-2009, 08:06 PM
 
72,824 posts, read 62,174,096 times
Reputation: 21776
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioUberAlles View Post
Your point? I'm not the one trying to blame the problems of an entire continent on outside forces...

Citing the fall of Rome means nothing, since I'm not trying to explain away the fall of Rome as the fault of Africans.

You're trying to blame African problems on outsiders (mostly Europeans).

We're not discussing the fall of Rome, we're discussing civilizations, or lack of them, in Africa.


Furthermore the immediate cause of the fall of Rome was Rome being physically overrun and occupied by invading armies. That was NOT the case with the fall of the African empire in Mali.
I think you just trying to say that Africa is a lost cause. I don't think so.
 
Old 03-16-2009, 08:13 PM
 
Location: Ohio
1,008 posts, read 869,206 times
Reputation: 250
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
I think you just trying to say that Africa is a lost cause. I don't think so.

I believe Africans have shown they have no capacity for reliable, fair, just, stable, and sensible self-government. The best they're able to do are the likes of Mobuto Sese Seko, Idi Amin, Charles Taylor, Robert Mugabe, Sam Nujoma, José Eduardo dos Santos, etc.

The standard operating procedure of any African leader... Obtain power, hold onto power, pad the Swiss bank account by looting the nation, drive away/massacre anybody from another race (Whites, Asians, etc), ruthlessly massacre any Blacks from other tribal groups, suppress all dissent, flee when rebels are approaching the capital and take whatever isn't nailed down.


I tell you what, put me in charge of Zimbabwe today, within twelve weeks the hunger situation will be reversed, within six months the electricity/power/fuel problem will be resolved, and the corruption problem will have been solved on the first or second day. Hyper-inflation will also be resolved within several months. Of course the main problem is I'm a White man and they'd probably rather shoot me down while shouting communist slogans, than listen to what I have to say about macro-economics, internal stability, justice, decency, and reasonable land management policies.
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