Living in Johannesburg or Pretoria, South Africa... (tourist, vs, speak)

[DBCC]

Unfortunately, REAL statistics are not available as they should be. It would be counter productive to tourism and a reliable source of income fo the South African government.

However, if you take population / crime stats from those currently available (i.e. 2007/2008 on the net) and from the ZARPolice, you will have an idea that the violent crime stats in Johannesburg are probably amongst the highest in the world, not to mention probably the highest world rate with rape and sexual assault crimes.

Tragic.... yes.. What is being done about it? Unfortunately, nothing. The Police are outgunned and outnumbered.

Despite "Firearm Amnesties:" (recently on CNN) which in the last 6 occasions those with illegal weapons have been encouraged to hand them over without prosecution, violent crime remains to be on the increase..

Just to add fuel to the fire, the South African Police force has miraculously "lost" more than 8 thousand weapons in the last 10 years.....also announced on CNN for the first time.....

[censusdata]

Originally Posted by wanneroo

I believe it's actual 50 a day for the whole country, not Joburg.

The article left the impression it was just in Joburg but it is for the whole country. Still SA has the world's second highest murder rate (3 TIMES Mexico's) but to me its violence is worse because most of it is very random.

In Colombia and Mexico if you aren't a drug dealer or law enforcement official you are pretty safe. In SA anyone who breathes in oxygen is at high risk of getting whacked. I looked over the JBG news paper online and just in the past 2 days 4 elderly residents were found brutally beaten to death, the women were raped. This is not uncommon, it happens daily. There is blatant ethnic cleansing against immigrants from other African countries and Boer farmers in the countryside. There are tons of countries in Africa that are much safer and more deserving of the World Cup.

[other99]

Originally Posted by censusdata

The article left the impression it was just in Joburg but it is for the whole country. Still SA has the world's second highest murder rate (3 TIMES Mexico's) but to me its violence is worse because most of it is very random.

In Colombia and Mexico if you aren't a drug dealer or law enforcement official you are pretty safe. In SA anyone who breathes in oxygen is at high risk of getting whacked. I looked over the JBG news paper online and just in the past 2 days 4 elderly residents were found brutally beaten to death, the women were raped. This is not uncommon, it happens daily. There is blatant ethnic cleansing against immigrants from other African countries and Boer farmers in the countryside. There are tons of countries in Africa that are much safer and more deserving of the World Cup.

I believe South Africa is capable of holding the world cup. After all South Africa not so long ago hosted the Rubgy world cup and cricket world cup. So you will probably also would say then South Africa should have not then hosted the Rubgy world cup or cricket world cup?

[DBCC]

Other 99: No, not at all. The Rugby World Cup and Cricket World Cup combined do not bring the amount of international spectators to South Africa as the WC Soccer will. The statistics will speak for themselves.
South Africa is not in a condition to offer security and safety to its own citizens, let alone the added burden of millions of tourists/spectators who not only attend the games, but will be also vunerable on tours/activities, and attract the attention of criminal elements. The added bonus of the criminals booty including foreign currency which is so desperately needed in the countries to the north, will surely increase the threat to innocents.
Sure, South Africa is more than capable. But the consequences of its inadequate security situation; - despite the 6th "Firearm Amnesty" have proven that their security/Police forces remain outmanned and outgunned - will not be able to cope with the wheels already in motion for this event.

[pigeonhole]

Originally Posted by Jozanne

Both Johannesburg and Pretoria is magical places! It all depends on what you reasons are for wanting to live there. The People responding above sounds very negative and narrow minded. Of course safety is a factor.. Livening in any 3rd world country will always have its dangers. The chaos in 3rd world cities is what give it’s the vibrancy and edginess that allot of people enjoy. I grew up in Johannesburg, during my youth I have been privileges to lived in many cities in all over the world. Currently I base myself in Pretoria. I am a white Afrikaans speaking female and I have never felt threatened and unsafe. I refuse to let my environment to scare me and I live with abundance amongst the beauty and unattractive elements of chaos in my 3rd world city.If its safety and security you want form a wealthy nanny state – than rather opt for Australia. In the end they desperately need to row their population. South Africa doesn’t need another expat scared to pits because he unfortunately took the wrong off ramp from the M1

I'm an older guy (European), and do you know that when I was a kid nobody spoke of South Africa as a 3rd world country, but worldwide SA was reputed as "Barnard's country" (Dr.Barnard did the 1st heart surgery in Capetown in 1966).
Your country, despite apartheid, was then considered (except for the radicals) as a pioneer country on a par with, say, Australia.
Since the ANC/Mandela crowd have seized power in 1990, -in lying and cunning, with the pretense of doing the "Rainbow Nation" with the Whites, pretense soon to be abandoned by his successor Mr.Mbeki, who showed the actual face of violent, corrupt Black Power-, your country have been steadily slipping down.
By the ways, some news of Orania?

[other99]

Originally Posted by DBCC

Other 99: No, not at all. The Rugby World Cup and Cricket World Cup combined do not bring the amount of international spectators to South Africa as the WC Soccer will. The statistics will speak for themselves.
South Africa is not in a condition to offer security and safety to its own citizens, let alone the added burden of millions of tourists/spectators who not only attend the games, but will be also vunerable on tours/activities, and attract the attention of criminal elements. The added bonus of the criminals booty including foreign currency which is so desperately needed in the countries to the north, will surely increase the threat to innocents.
Sure, South Africa is more than capable. But the consequences of its inadequate security situation; - despite the 6th "Firearm Amnesty" have proven that their security/Police forces remain outmanned and outgunned - will not be able to cope with the wheels already in motion for this event.

Well in South African history with previous sporting tourments there has not been any real violence that occured when that happened.

Anyway you say say South Africa was too unsafe, what about when West Germany hosted the 1972 olympics in Munich? West Germany is very safe but it will be forever remembered for the terrorist attacks.
No nation anymore is fully safe from incidents during major events.

anyway here is some info on what the security be like during the world cup:

There will be more than 40 000 police officers dedicated to securing the tournament, and 700 police officers will be deployed around our world-class stadiums for each match. There will also be dedicated 2010 police stations within close proximity to each of the stadiums, as well as dedicated crime-investigation teams and special courts to investigate and deal with all event-related crimes 24 hours a day. Intervention units have been set up to deal with unruly crowds.



As far as general city and hotel safety is concerned, local government and the hospitality industry have been involved in the broader security plan around the tournament. Police will be strategically deployed around hotels, Fan Parks, restaurants and popular attractions. Route security, specifically from airports into the cities, will be a priority and state-of-the-art information and communication military technology will be used, as well as a fleet of nearly 40 helicopters. A 24-hour multilingual hotline will assist visitors requiring police or medical services.


South Africa Tourism - Security at the 2010 FIFA World Cupâ„¢ - Full article


In addition at least half a million jobs have been created in South Africa. Yes South Africa has alot of problems but these problems wont be solved over night. Just as the USA has alot of problems but you cannot expect these problems to dissapear over night.

[DBCC]

Other 99: Munich was an isolated incident that stunned the world with its audacity, savagery, sensationalism (prime objective of the terrorist)and horror. I say isolated because things during that time in Europe were relatively calm and this attack was least expected.
South Africa's security figures are astounding when it comes to the articles you have mentioned, which I had read previously, and, - having relatives in the SA Security and Police Forces have followed these preparative developments with interest - but the realty is different to that mentioned in Munich.
South Africa has constant security problems. These have increased since 1994 when the SA Govt mistakenly opened their doors to the influx of refugees/workers who came from the north. This produced a 37% unemployment rate, the widespread influx of AK47's from ex dissidents from the north, and the effective arming of the SA Criminal.
It also produced ethnic cleansing to a certain extent where SA locals started eliminating refugees who were stealing their jobs.
It was easier for many to live by the sword than to work anyway.
SouthAfrica's problems will not be solved overnight - you are absolutly right. But with the world cup it appears that they have prepared to resolve the problems the night before, and not with the anticipation due to dealing with the extremes that have been prevalent for to long.
Your hipocracy with reference the half a million jobs being created shows near - sightedness. What happens AFTER the World Cup when they become unemployed?
Word on the "street" shows severe consequences to the honest worker, the immigrant worker, intimidation, extreme violence, and ethnic cleansing again, something to be considered in the real future of South Africa.
Make no mistake, I love the land of my birth. I am able to criticize from first-hand experience. You only have to look at statistics, speak with the "cop on the ground" and put the real security situation in perspective.
I personally hope that the criminal elements will consider the World Cup as an opportunity for future stability, growth, and the prospect of legitimate jobs, developing the rainbow nation with solidarity and compassion as suggested by Nelson Mandela within a framework of harmony, peace, a future for all, and with South Africa's example to the rest of Africa on how things should be done.

[other99]

Originally Posted by DBCC

Other 99: Munich was an isolated incident that stunned the world with its audacity, savagery, sensationalism (prime objective of the terrorist)and horror. I say isolated because things during that time in Europe were relatively calm and this attack was least expected.
South Africa's security figures are astounding when it comes to the articles you have mentioned, which I had read previously, and, - having relatives in the SA Security and Police Forces have followed these preparative developments with interest - but the realty is different to that mentioned in Munich.
South Africa has constant security problems. These have increased since 1994 when the SA Govt mistakenly opened their doors to the influx of refugees/workers who came from the north. This produced a 37% unemployment rate, the widespread influx of AK47's from ex dissidents from the north, and the effective arming of the SA Criminal.
It also produced ethnic cleansing to a certain extent where SA locals started eliminating refugees who were stealing their jobs.
It was easier for many to live by the sword than to work anyway.
SouthAfrica's problems will not be solved overnight - you are absolutly right. But with the world cup it appears that they have prepared to resolve the problems the night before, and not with the anticipation due to dealing with the extremes that have been prevalent for to long.
Your hipocracy with reference the half a million jobs being created shows near - sightedness. What happens AFTER the World Cup when they become unemployed?
Word on the "street" shows severe consequences to the honest worker, the immigrant worker, intimidation, extreme violence, and ethnic cleansing again, something to be considered in the real future of South Africa.
Make no mistake, I love the land of my birth. I am able to criticize from first-hand experience. You only have to look at statistics, speak with the "cop on the ground" and put the real security situation in perspective.
I personally hope that the criminal elements will consider the World Cup as an opportunity for future stability, growth, and the prospect of legitimate jobs, developing the rainbow nation with solidarity and compassion as suggested by Nelson Mandela within a framework of harmony, peace, a future for all, and with South Africa's example to the rest of Africa on how things should be done.

Anyway even prior to the olympics in 1972 there were terrorist incidents in Europe. Even your country had series of terrorist attacks prior to 9/11, even the world trade building had a terrorist attack in the early 1990s so there were warning signs.

well yes the South African government has alot to answer for with the crime rates.

However you stated on what will happen after the world cup? Well I lived in a city that hosted the olympics. It was Sydney. It created many jobs, and the economy contiuned to expand. New jobs were created after the olympics. Even after the olympics was over unemployment contiuned to decline and there was no serious economic downturn. Even today the unemployment rate for Sydney is lower than most other cities in this country.

Anyway LA is not necessary safe either, and has had problems with illegal immigrants when it hosted the olympics in the 1980s but still the olympics was quite profitable.

[DBCC]

Unfortunately you are not able to compare either Munich, Los Angeles, Sydney or any other city off the African continent with the threats that exist. Australia, the United States, and Germany are all first world countries.

The mentality is different.

They have the mentality of construction, developing a better nation, and laws that accompany the derivation of funds, a lesser corrupt administration, and visions for the future, benefits for all, progress and future thinking.

South Africa had its chance at being the only first world country on the continent. Pigeonhole, I agree, the prospectives were amazing......and I am saddened that the initiatives and momentum of this was not carried forward to make it a more prosperous nation for all.

Warning signs? Warning signs...... no we have not had warning signs in South Africa. Crime and violence, intimidation, rape, ethnic cleansing have been constant since 1994 where a marked increase was noted for those reasons expressed in my previous post.

Don't you sincerely think that with 16 years of "constant and ever present warnings" the government should not have taken a harsher stand on enforcing the law and order and protecting it's citizens?

The truth behind the matter is that crime is profitable for the South African Government, its taxation system, and thus produces more income.

[other99]

Originally Posted by DBCC

Unfortunately you are not able to compare either Munich, Los Angeles, Sydney or any other city off the African continent with the threats that exist. Australia, the United States, and Germany are all first world countries.

The mentality is different.

They have the mentality of construction, developing a better nation, and laws that accompany the derivation of funds, a lesser corrupt administration, and visions for the future, benefits for all, progress and future thinking.

South Africa had its chance at being the only first world country on the continent. Pigeonhole, I agree, the prospectives were amazing......and I am saddened that the initiatives and momentum of this was not carried forward to make it a more prosperous nation for all.

Warning signs? Warning signs...... no we have not had warning signs in South Africa. Crime and violence, intimidation, rape, ethnic cleansing have been constant since 1994 where a marked increase was noted for those reasons expressed in my previous post.

Don't you sincerely think that with 16 years of "constant and ever present warnings" the government should not have taken a harsher stand on enforcing the law and order and protecting it's citizens?

The truth behind the matter is that crime is profitable for the South African Government, its taxation system, and thus produces more income.

Even prior to 1994 there were warning signs of increased violence. But the whites communities were largely safe, however the blacks communities during aparthied were not really safe and rapes, killing were common.

I even know South African that came to Australia during the 1970s and a major factor was he and his family that came out here felt it was unsafe. So yes even in the 1970s there were warning signs.