Metro gov't for cities in AL (Birmingham, Mobile: real estate, housing, condos)

[Reactionary]

IAW Keeper, thank you for the civil discussion stx - Louisville is lucky to have you as a citizen. You too Bravo.

[stx12499]

Originally Posted by Bravo35223

You can have all of the subjective opinions you want but I would really like to see you back up your views with data from third parties...

You have provided nothing but anecdotal evidence as well. I see hardly any hard stats except some unemployment stats which show me that Birmingham has some suburbs that outperform the nation slightly. I am not sure what is technically considered downtown Birmingham, but I know anyone working in the office towers outsid ethe medical district could not walk to a Starbucks without taking a mile walk each way. The downtown, including the loft district, is DEAD at night. I mean it is really quiet, hardly any cars, no pedestrians, and hardly anything open. There are a couple cool spots--Steel is one. Even the city's primiere urban neighborhood, Five Points, has about a fraction of the vibrancy you would find in the primere urban neighborhood of almost any city surrouding Birmingham--Nashville, Memphis, Atlanta, Louisville etc etc etc. And I am not sure what your definition of "downtown" is, but it is certainly not the entire city limits of Birmingham.

Honestly, there is no "Stat" to prove which city is more vibrant. But if you honestly think Birmingham has even half the activity of the aforementioned cities, you really need to get out more. I do appreciate the civil discussion, and this is an interesting debate, but when Birmingham starts building new arenas, downtown retail, 60-100 story skyscrapers, and has a downtown with more than 25 pedestrians on a Saturday night, I will agree when you compare the Ham to a Louisville or Nashville or Memphis. Right now the comparison is marginal at best.

[stx12499]

Originally Posted by Bravo35223

You can have all of the subjective opinions you want but I would really like to see you back up your views with data from third parties...

Oh, and if you want a bunch of chamber of commerce crap from "third parties", here is a fraction of it:

LouisvilleKy.gov - Mayor Abramson - The Buzz on Louisville

[stx12499]

Originally Posted by Keeper

This 'debate' would be better served as a separate topic. While the original poster did ask about city gov't, this issues has gone more into the good and bad of Metro gov't not the city of Madison.

I don't mod this forum but this is a nice civil discussion so it is fun. Maybe you can merge this into another thread or start another thread about Madison? I will leave that up to you.

[Keeper]

Welcome to AL.. STX.. we have the best posters around..

OK.. anyone want to continue this??? I can start a new thread and you can continue...

[Bravo35223]

Originally Posted by stx12499

You have provided nothing but anecdotal evidence as well. I see hardly any hard stats except some unemployment stats which show me that Birmingham has some suburbs that outperform the nation slightly.

Sorry those stats are not about the Birmingham suburbs. They are about the Birmingham Statistical Metropolitan Area (SMSA) which includes the City of Birmingham and all surrounding countes. Birmingham's economy outperforms the nation's and with a #4 unemployment rate of vs the Louisville metro's #47...I really don't know what to say if you call this anecdotal....

It's not. It's objective data.

I am not sure what is technically considered downtown Birmingham, but I know anyone working in the office towers outsid ethe medical district could not walk to a Starbucks without taking a mile walk each way. The downtown, including the loft district, is DEAD at night. I mean it is really quiet, hardly any cars, no pedestrians, and hardly anything open. There are a couple cool spots--Steel is one. Even the city's primiere urban neighborhood, Five Points, has about a fraction of the vibrancy you would find in the primere urban neighborhood of almost any city surrouding Birmingham--Nashville, Memphis, Atlanta, Louisville etc etc etc. And I am not sure what your definition of "downtown" is, but it is certainly not the entire city limits of Birmingham.

Well - again - you are certainly free to have your opinion but it really seems to fly in the face of the New York Times, Dallas Morning News, Rolling Stone Magazine....the newspaper articles were written by travel writers from two of the largest newspaper (New York Times #1) in the United States who spent numerous days and nights there.

Honestly, there is no "Stat" to prove which city is more vibrant. But if you honestly think Birmingham has even half the activity of the aforementioned cities, you really need to get out more. I do appreciate the civil discussion, and this is an interesting debate, but when Birmingham starts building new arenas, downtown retail, 60-100 story skyscrapers, and has a downtown with more than 25 pedestrians on a Saturday night, I will agree when you compare the Ham to a Louisville or Nashville or Memphis. Right now the comparison is marginal at best.

Well it is very apparent that you do not understand that the nightlife in Birmingham is not located in the Financial District - The Regions Tower, the AT&T Tower, the Wachovia Tower. It is located on the Southside....for some reason I do not understand - you seem to have a need for nightlife in the Financial District. All of the travel writers spent their time on "The Southside" which is the bohemian part of downtown Birmingham. Maybe we can all be proud one day when we also have restaurants and bars in the Financial District. But with the ones that we have that are nationally respected....who cares??? I'd rather be around a nice tree on a little side street than next to a 35 story building....but I guess that's just me. Apparently skyscrapers are important to you...

Quality of life is not measured by 60 story skyscrapers - but speaking of skyscrapers - why not? Apparently you ignored the links to the skyscrapers in the city that are being converted to condo. One is 25 stories tall and is classic terra cotta design. The other is 19 stories. These are beautiful old buildings with marble interiors that are being fully restored. Gosh - I guess more evidence that 'Birmingham is dying'.

READ THE LINKS.

Combine the two and 44 stories of new condos are coming online in Birmingham in the next two years.

Your response?

You have provided not a single citation from a 3rd party (outside the city of Louisville) to back up your assertions, whereas I have cited numerous ones.

I agree there is no 'stat' to prove which is more vibrant. All I have provided is citations from:

1) The New York Times
2) Gourmet Magazine
3) Rolling Stone Magazine
4) The Dallas Morning News
5) The United States Bureau of Labor statistics which rated Birmingham #4 in unemployment and Louisville #47.
6) Newsweek Magazine.

Another one I have not previously cited is Expansion Magazine - which in 2005 named Birmingham #15 in America's 50 Hottest Cities.

I am sorry you are unable to back up your assertions with citations from outside Louisville. My arguments stand on their own.

I hope you will notice that I have NOT attacked Louisville. I have only defended Birmingham with numerous opinions of those outside the city. As I said earlier, for ten years I served the Humana corporation. They were my largest healthcare client in the Southeast and I had the PLEASURE of traveling to Louisville at least 40 times during that timeframe.

I would invite you to back up your subjective opinions with something other than your own views.

I will now add two things that you cannot get in Louisville that you can get in Birmingham that will never change:

1) You'll never be able to stand on top of a mountain/hill in Louisville and look out 8 miles over the valleys below - while you eat at P.F. Chang's or play golf.

2) You'll never be able to drive to some of the most beautiful beaches in the United States in 4 hours. Birmingham residents own a very significant part of the real estate on the Gulf Coast and driving down for the weekend is as natural here as breathing...leave at 4 pm and get there for a late dinner.

In terms of physical beauty, there's simply no comparison. In the winter, when my neighbor's leaves have fallen - I can see 8 miles from my front stoop....

[stx12499]

Originally Posted by stx12499

Oh, and if you want a bunch of chamber of commerce crap from "third parties", here is a fraction of it:

LouisvilleKy.gov - Mayor Abramson - The Buzz on Louisville

You need to look here for evidence from these so called "third party experts." Oh and here's more.

LouisvilleKy.gov - I Want To - See Louisville rankings and recognition

Of course, I will be the first to admit most these rankings are crap and based on bogus methodology.

You didn't read my links I guess, but I certainly read yours. And I do not care what you say, the Southside is NOT downtown and it is not as vibrant as you say it is, especially on weekdays. Travel to the West End of Nashville or the Highlands of Louisville or Buckhead or Virginia Highlands in Atlanta to see vibrant urban neighborhoods. Another example of Birmingham being behind the curve is the lack of a smoking ban. It was great the bars were open so late on a Saturday but I had to leave by three because of the smoke!

Having 44 floors of condo rehabs downtown is really not that much. Are you aware that most other southern cities built luxury condo towers downtown years ago and are now building several more? Waterfront Park Place Louisville, Kentucky- Uncommon Design Uncomplicated Lifestyle Unexpected Amenities
Heck, this condo tower in the Highlands has been around for 20 years, and even the suburbs of the city have similar type of stuff:
The Highlands photo - Abdul Sharif photos at pbase.com

There are too many condo rehabs for me to list them all here in Louisville. Louisville has three condo towers downtown under construction currently and proposals for at least two more. I can think of the tops of at least three buildings undergoing condo conversions as we speak. And I am not even counting stuff like this, which would be huge news in Birmingham:
ZirMed - News Item

I toured the City Federal Condos when I was in town by the way. I also toured the new midrise capri I think it was called and saw the other apporoximately six floor building U/C across the street. The hills in Birmingham are nice. Louisville has similar sized hills, but they are mostly parks or suburban areas in southern Indiana (where mansions sit on hills and look over the Ohio Valley).

Louisville Sparkling in the Night photo - Abdul Sharif photos at pbase.com

There is no PF Changs up there but I don't eat at that place anyways when there are restaurants like this open until 2 am in Louisville, with upscale lounges:

Asiatique Restaurant :: Bio

In fact there are so many good reastaurants in Louisville that it is impossible for me to list them all. Birmingham has some nice places too, but I would be surprised if the dining scene there is advanced as Louisville's. Maybe the only way to judge a city's dining scene is by how many AAA five diamond rated restaurants there are. Louisville's Oakroom at the Seelbach Hilton downtown has won the award for 9 years straight...where is Alabama on the list?

http://www.aaanewsroom.net/Assets/Fi...estaurants.pdf

The Best New Restaurants of 2006 - Esquire

Speaking of which, why so few hotels in downtown Birmingham? The Tutweiler was nice. The Sheraton..meh. But seriously, the hotels are few and far between. I would have loved to stay at a hotel like this in Birmingham:

21c Museum Hotel | Louisville Kentucky's Premier Hotel, Museum and Restaurant Property

The Highlands hotel looked cool on the surface, but I was not impressed by the rooms for the price, so I declined.

Speaking of which, I wonder what conventioners staying at the Sheraton do with themselves at night. You think they walk the two miles through the dark deserted streets to the Southside and fight off the panhandlers?

I could go on and on with lists of national awards but ultimately they don't prove much, even if they are third parties. Anyone visiting Birmingham with an open mind will likely notice a lot of the same things I did...from an urban development perspective, it has a long way to go. And as far as being attractive to the young and the active, it has even further. Now, our original discussion talked about merger, and I think this would REALLY help the city. I have nothing against the city, but I am just telling you how it is from a young person's perspective who is very well traveled.

[Bravo35223]

Originally Posted by stx12499

You need to look here for evidence from these so called "third party experts." Oh and here's more.

LouisvilleKy.gov - I Want To - See Louisville rankings and recognition

OK - Great and here's what our Chamber says...

Birmingham Regional Chamber of Commerce - Visiting & Living - Birmingham "Quick Facts"

Same stuff.

Of course, I will be the first to admit most these rankings are crap and based on bogus methodology.

You didn't read my links I guess, but I certainly read yours. And I do not care what you say, the Southside is NOT downtown and it is not as vibrant as you say it is, especially on weekdays.


Well it is hard to argue with someone who does not care what I say...because you continue to fail to back up your assertions with facts.

Too bad about what you say...Southside is only 20 blocks south of the Financial District. SORRY. In a cab,...that takes...uhhh...5-6 minutes?

Travel to the West End of Nashville or the Highlands of Louisville or Buckhead or Virginia Highlands in Atlanta to see vibrant urban neighborhoods. Another example of Birmingham being behind the curve is the lack of a smoking ban. It was great the bars were open so late on a Saturday but I had to leave by three because of the smoke!

Oh I have been to them all...including San Francisco, Manhattan and the Gold Coast of Chicago. I've got a million miles on Delta alone....so I need no lecture in traveling to large cities. Believe me, when I had a business territory that included Louisvlle, Indianapolis, Nashville, New Orleans, Charlotte, Jacksonville, Miami, and Tampa for ten years...I saw them all - about 10 times a year every year for ten years. There are many nice places in the Southeast....and many that are overrated.



Having 44 floors of condo rehabs downtown is really not that much.

Well cite how many floors you have rather than saying "its really not that much" You continue to assault Birmingham rather than providing facts about specifics. Only a bunch of comments about.."there's too many to list"..

Well list em.

Give us some facts. Remember - you have come on here with a full scale assault on the the Metro Birmingham area and you continue to fail to provide SPECIFIC information on your assertions.

So how many floors of condo do you have under high rise development?

Answer please....no dodging.

Are you aware that most other southern cities built luxury condo towers downtown years ago and are now building several more? Waterfront Park Place Louisville, Kentucky- Uncommon Design Uncomplicated Lifestyle Unexpected Amenities

Yes and are you aware that Birmingham built condos on the side of Red Moutain years ago overlooking the city? Come on now....

Heck, this condo tower in the Highlands has been around for 20 years, and even the suburbs of the city have similar type of stuff:
The Highlands photo - Abdul Sharif photos at pbase.com

There are too many condo rehabs for me to list them all here in Louisville. Louisville has three condo towers downtown under construction currently and proposals for at least two more. I can think of the tops of at least three buildings undergoing condo conversions as we speak. And I am not even counting stuff like this, which would be huge news in Birmingham:
ZirMed - News Item

OH god I am overwhelmed.

I toured the City Federal Condos when I was in town by the way. I also toured the new midrise capri I think it was called and saw the other apporoximately six floor building U/C across the street. The hills in Birmingham are nice. Louisville has similar sized hills, but they are mostly parks or suburban areas in southern Indiana (where mansions sit on hills and look over the Ohio Valley).

No sorry...there is no place you can go in Louisville and look out over an 8 mile valey...give me your photo and we will compare....sorry - I've been there too many times...nice countryside but nothing like the vistas Birmingham has...and there's no way you are going to drive to the beach in four hours...

Louisville Sparkling in the Night photo - Abdul Sharif photos at pbase.com

Oh wonderful Louisville Sparkling Night Photo...here is your Birmingham Sparkling Night Photo....How old are you?

Birmingham, AL : Birmingham at night from "The Club" on Red Mountain photo

There is no PF Changs up there but I don't eat at that place anyways when there are restaurants like this open until 2 am in Louisville, with upscale lounges:

Asiatique Restaurant :: Bio\

Yes this is because you have no restaurants in Lousville that have an eight mile view of their patio.
NAME ONE and show us the view....come on now....come with it. You dont want to see mine...

In fact there are so many good reastaurants in Louisville that it is impossible for me to list them all.

Well that is incredible, because I seem to have no problem quickly listing nationally recognized restaurants here..You are digging yourself deeper and deeper into your subjective material.

Birmingham has some nice places too, but I would be surprised if the dining scene there is advanced as Louisville's. Maybe the only way to judge a city's dining scene is by how many AAA five diamond rated restaurants there are. Louisville's Oakroom at the Seelbach Hilton downtown has won the award for 9 years straight...where is Alabama on the list?

http://www.aaanewsroom.net/Assets/Fi...estaurants.pdf

The Best New Restaurants of 2006 - Esquire

Right here pal....

Ocean, Birmingham

And give me a Gourmet Magazine review of ANY magazine listed in Louisville...just one. The #5 Restaurant in the United States....in Southside that you call "not in downtown Birmingham"

Give me one restaurant in Louisville rated by Gourmet...give me one rated as having the "Best Chef in the Southeast"

Highlands Bar & Grill


peaking of which, why so few hotels in downtown Birmingham? The Tutweiler was nice. The Sheraton..meh. But seriously, the hotels are few and far between. I would have loved to stay at a hotel like this in Birmingham:

21c Museum Hotel | Louisville Kentucky's Premier Hotel, Museum and Restaurant Property

The Highlands hotel looked cool on the surface, but I was not impressed by the rooms for the price, so I declined.

Too bad you didn't stay there because here is a review from a traveler in Minneapolis...

Birmingham: Hotel Highland at Five Points - Traveler Reviews - My New Hotel In Birmingham - TripAdvisor

Speaking of which, I wonder what conventioners staying at the Sheraton do with themselves at night. You think they walk the two miles through the dark deserted streets to the Southside and fight off the panhandlers?

You continue to have a fixation on the fact that the Financial District must seem to be teeming with nighlife. Birmingham's is based in the Southside...

But just to make you happy, Marriott is taking a 19 story bank HQ building and converting it to a Marriott property starting next year.

And the wonderful news for you - because it was a bank HQ building - IT WILL BE LOCATED IN THE FINANCIAL DISTRICT!!!

Starbucks coming to hotel at former Regions tower - Birmingham Business Journal:

I could go on and on with lists of national awards but ultimately they don't prove much, even if they are third parties.

That is because you cannot back up your assertions with objective opinions from third parties....bring on your lists of national awards. I want to see them...it has not been tough for me to present mine....you talk about yours...I present mine.

Anyone visiting Birmingham with an open mind will likely notice a lot of the same things I did...from an urban development perspective, it has a long way to go. And as far as being attractive to the young and the active, it has even further. Now, our original discussion talked about merger, and I think this would REALLY help the city.

Once again, the largest and most metropolitan city in the Southeast is Atlanta and is has steadfastly refused to go to a metro form of government. There are pros and cons but no irrefutable evidence that metro is best or promotes high growth....Birmingham refuses too and as a result has some of the finest college prep quality high schools in the Southeast.

I have nothing against the city, but I am just telling you how it is from a young person's perspective who is very well traveled.

It is obvious that you are completely uninformed about the city and metro area and have formed subjective opinions after staying here a short period of time on business trips that are contrary to professional travel writers with some of the largest newspapers in the country.

Furthermore, you have failed to provide evidence that Louisvlle has public schools on a par with those in the Birmingham Metro area...

Give me a reference from the New York Times, Dallas Morning News, Rolling Stone, Gourmet about Louisville and we'll talk...but until then - it's just your opinion...

[Bravo35223]

Just look at Birmingham!!! Just the beauty of it!!!

First two pictures are from the top of Shades Mountain overlooking the valley below in which the ciites of Vestavia and Hoover are located....Oak Mountain is in the far background about 8 miles away....Birmingham's latest growth is beyond Oak Mountain....

The third picture is from our annual guys trip to Destin to play golf...Leave on Thursday afternoon at 4 and get there at 8:30...have dinner, and sit on the patio for a few glasses of wine. Play golf all weekend.

I have grown up here...and 'quick beach weekends' are a normal part of life in Birmingham....we live in a beautiful city and can reach beautiful beaches in a very reasonable time...

And in Januray, we're playing golf here.

Driving time from this golf course to downtown? Eight minutes...so if you live in this residentital area, getting to work downtown is a snap...

[Bravo35223]

Saks Fifth Avenue...

Saks.com - Saks stores

McCormick and Schmicks Seafood....located only in major metro areas of the country with the demographics to support it...not one in Nashville, Memphis, Louisville or Jacksonville....started in Portland Oregon and considered the #1 seafood chain in the United States...each store is freestanding and very expensively constructed.

McCormick & Schmick's Seafood Restaurants - 30 Varieties of Fresh Seafood on a Daily Changing Menu

Flemings Steak House...

Fleming's Steakhouse - Locations

Don Shula's Steakhouse...

Shula's