Metro gov't for cities in AL (Huntsville, Madison: credit, real estate, zoning)

[Reactionary]

Huntsville and Madison County rejected Metro government about 20 years ago (IIRC Madison County and Madison City voted overwhelmingly NO, HSV had tepid support); while I was for it then (call it immaturity), just look at Nashville now and see what Metro government has done to ruin that city. Regardless, Madison County Metro is a moot point with the expansion of both Huntsville and Madison into Limestone County.

I remember one argument against Metro government - that by having layers of law enforcement they can watch each other - lessening corruption.

There are regional planning agencies (TARCOG) and some ad hoc groups (like BRAC-group) that facilitate cooperation as a region.

Cities protect their interests, just as citizens expect. And IMO, developers are powerful all over the US.

[rnc76]

Originally Posted by Reactionary

Huntsville and Madison County rejected Metro government about 20 years ago (IIRC Madison County and Madison City voted overwhelmingly NO, HSV had tepid support); while I was for it then (call it immaturity), just look at Nashville now and see what Metro government has done to ruin that city. Regardless, Madison County Metro is a moot point with the expansion of both Huntsville and Madison into Limestone County.

I remember one argument against Metro government - that by having layers of law enforcement they can watch each other - lessening corruption.

There are regional planning agencies (TARCOG) and some ad hoc groups (like BRAC-group) that facilitate cooperation as a region.

Cities protect their interests, just as citizens expect. And IMO, developers are powerful all over the US.

Louisville and Lexington, KY are two examples where metro government has worked pretty well. Not without problems I'm sure. They have limited the growth into undeveloped areas, forcing older areas to be redeveloped rather than left to rot. This is particularly true in Lexington's case. Additionally, removing layers upon layers of beauracracy and management expense is a good thing IMO. I think the argument that you need more government in order to watch over the government is pretty illogical.

I realize it will never happen, but I still think it would be the best move for the metro as we grow and become more populous. Developers are powerful all over the country, this is true. I feel though that here the cities try harder to protect the interests of the developers than they do their citizens. I have lived in areas where there has been much more civic control over city planning and development.

Also, I'm not quite sure what maturity has to do with a person's opinion concerning a metro govt. Would you care to explain?

[VMH2507]

I must admit that I am not that involved in the Madison politics, but I have heard that a major complaint against the last mayor (Jan Wells) was that she was in the pocket of the developers, having been a Real Estate agent before becoming mayor. I think we have a good one now in Kirkindall and he seems to be trying to hold a line against the developers as well as trying to develop more commercial property. There is a good bit of commercial development going in on County Line Road as well as more development on Hughes. I also understand that that is the reason the city council favors Crestwood over HH for the Madison hospital although I disagree on that. I must also add that I have never thought that the southern end on Memorial Parkway was that attractive but I guess you take what you can get.

[Reactionary]

rnc - my personal development has informed my views on Metro government - ymmv.

You point out Louisville and Lexington, I'll raise you New Orleans and Philadelphia...

Back then I thought that Metro government would be an effective method of addressing sprawl and gaining some efficiency. I don't think so any more. I haven't seen successful efforts to reduce sprawl (other than driving out middle class - creating two-tier rich / poor). And I haven't seen evidence of government efficiency (which would be marginal at best - some overhead and general administrative staff).

Now I think it is used (in part) to grab higher taxes from suburbs / exurbs to fund failing inner city systems. Or, for instance, it can be used by developers to make it easier to fund 'regional infrastructure' (like arenas).

And it's not 'more' government watching each other, it's 'different' and perhaps competing government - like checks and balances. In a perfect world unnecessary, but...

[stx12499]

Originally Posted by Reactionary

rnc - my personal development has informed my views on Metro government - ymmv.

You point out Louisville and Lexington, I'll raise you New Orleans and Philadelphia...

Back then I thought that Metro government would be an effective method of addressing sprawl and gaining some efficiency. I don't think so any more. I haven't seen successful efforts to reduce sprawl (other than driving out middle class - creating two-tier rich / poor). And I haven't seen evidence of government efficiency (which would be marginal at best - some overhead and general administrative staff).

Now I think it is used (in part) to grab higher taxes from suburbs / exurbs to fund failing inner city systems. Or, for instance, it can be used by developers to make it easier to fund 'regional infrastructure' (like arenas).

And it's not 'more' government watching each other, it's 'different' and perhaps competing government - like checks and balances. In a perfect world unnecessary, but...

You are very wrong about that....Louisville is seeing high growth, a great economy, and a booming center city...not just downtown, but in all the neighborhoods surrounding it. The downtown rebirth is a national trend but few cities Louisville's size can boast the eclectic and diverse urban neighborhoods on TOP of that. Neither Louisville nor Lexington has massive sprawl, and the majority of Louisville metro lives and works in Jefferson County.

[Reactionary]

stx12499 - first, I am rarely "very wrong" about stuff :-)

How can Louisville be experiencing "high growth" when the Metro is gaining only ~1500 people per year of ~550,000 population (quickie research from Wikipedia)? That's better than many cities which are in decline, but that hardly qualifies as high growth.

Plus, ~150,000 people in 'Jefferson County' don't live in Louisville Metro - the "Louisville - Jefferson County balance".

I'm happy that Louisville has a great economy and a booming city center - but how much of that is attributable to 'Metro government'? I acknowledge that since the Metro government is fairly recent (2003), benefits might be hard to quantify - but that doesn't really lend support to your position.

[stx12499]

Originally Posted by Reactionary

stx12499 - first, I am rarely "very wrong" about stuff :-)

How can Louisville be experiencing "high growth" when the Metro is gaining only ~1500 people per year of ~550,000 population (quickie research from Wikipedia)? That's better than many cities which are in decline, but that hardly qualifies as high growth.

Plus, ~150,000 people in 'Jefferson County' don't live in Louisville Metro - the "Louisville - Jefferson County balance".

I'm happy that Louisville has a great economy and a booming city center - but how much of that is attributable to 'Metro government'? I acknowledge that since the Metro government is fairly recent (2003), benefits might be hard to quantify - but that doesn't really lend support to your position.

That is merely a census technicality. As far as Metro Government is concerned, we are a city-county of over 700,000 people, making it the 17th largest city in America. Every person in Jefferson County has access to city services, its just some live in incorporated "balance suburbs" like Jeffersontown, KY. Furthermore, when I speak metro, I mean to say the 14 county metropolitan statistcal area, which is around 1.3 million people. Louisville is not growing like Atlanta or Charlotte, but compared to its Midwest and NE coastal peers, it is doing quite well. And there is no word but boom to describe the downtown renaissance. The only cities with a similar size and as much or more activity would be Austin and Nashville.

[Reactionary]

stx12499 - "when I speak metro, I mean to say the 14 county metropolitan statistcal area". All well and good, but the question was 'Metro government'.

You introduce Jeffersontown KY (which appears to be incorporated BTW), which illustrates the point exactly - Jtown DID NOT join the 'Louisville - Jefferson County Metro Government' (aka 'Louisville Metro'). Jtown is the second largest city in Jefferson County. It is more than 'a census technicality' for the purposes of discussing 'Metro government'. Jtown has its own Mayor and City Council and tax authority, separate from 'Louisville Metro'.

My OPINION is that Jtown and other cities did not join 'Louisville Metro' because of taxes - plus they get to maintain independence from a larger body that may not have the same priorities as their citizens.

Compare 'Louisville Metro' and 'Jeffersontown' schools / crime / taxes? Has the 'Louisville Metro' governing structure improved the lives of citizens - are these key areas being adequately addressed?

[stx12499]

Originally Posted by Reactionary

stx12499 - "when I speak metro, I mean to say the 14 county metropolitan statistcal area". All well and good, but the question was 'Metro government'.

You introduce Jeffersontown KY (which appears to be incorporated BTW), which illustrates the point exactly - Jtown DID NOT join the 'Louisville - Jefferson County Metro Government' (aka 'Louisville Metro'). Jtown is the second largest city in Jefferson County. It is more than 'a census technicality' for the purposes of discussing 'Metro government'. Jtown has its own Mayor and City Council and tax authority, separate from 'Louisville Metro'.

My OPINION is that Jtown and other cities did not join 'Louisville Metro' because of taxes - plus they get to maintain independence from a larger body that may not have the same priorities as their citizens.

Compare 'Louisville Metro' and 'Jeffersontown' schools / crime / taxes? Has the 'Louisville Metro' governing structure improved the lives of citizens - are these key areas being adequately addressed?

I wont go into this mroe with you, but you dont understand the way things work around here. Louisville/Jefferson schools have been merged since the 70's and with nearly 100,000 students, there are less than 20 school districts in America that are larger. Jtown residents pay Louisville AND Jtown taxes. They also vote for Louisville AND Jtown Mayor. Its just the services overlap a bit. They have equal representation on the metro council:

Louisville, Kentucky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

LouisvilleKy.gov - Your Government - Louisville/Jefferson County Merger

Few people know much about the city. The ones that do have the image of a declining river city (which it was in the 70's). Modern Louisville is a growing, thriving city center with a vibrant downtown, a burgeoning health sciences and distribution/logistics economy, steady population growth, and a great amount of culture, arts, restaurants, and livability. I am sold on the city.

[Reactionary]

stx - thanks for the merger link; Louisville Metro claims to have saved $700,000 by combining city / county governments - good to know - but that takes care of the efficiency argument for Metro government - it appears that combining governments doesn't save much. You are right about the school merger, but that is still a peripheral issue to 'Metro government'.

You keep pointing to how much you like Louisville without focusing on the Government... nice but tangential to a discussion of the pros and cons of 'Metro government', unless you can identify specific benefits of the Metro structure.

"In 2000, voters elected to merge the City of Louisville and Jefferson County. On January 6, 2003, Jeffersontown became part of the 16th-largest metro area in the United States. “Though Jeffersontown does not actively receive many services from the current metro government, working cooperatively as this newly hatched government develops will accommodate us in areas of mutual interest,” says Mayor Clay Foreman.

While Jeffersontown remains a separate entity, with the merger of Louisville and unincorporated Jefferson County, Jeffersontown became the second-largest city in the county. Indeed, Jeffersontown is poised at the beginning of a great era of growth; and city government as well as civil services are ready to meet the needs of a growing city.

Jeffersontown has a second-class designation among the tiers of cities. It’s governed by a mayor and city council with zoning authority. Jeffersontown has a full-service, 25-employee public works department. Fire and police departments are run by the city, with available 911 service. The Fire Protection District has three stations constantly staffed with a minimum of four firefighters each. The Police Department is the first in Kentucky to receive both state and national accreditation."

Jeffersontown, Kentucky - Viewbook

“One of the promises of merger was to allow suburban cities to continue to exist,” said Council President Kelly Downard, R-16.

LouisvilleKy.gov - 2004 - Republican Caucus of Louisville Metro Council sponsors resolution in support of suburban cities, fire protection districts