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I agree. I don't get the whole attempt to try to tell people how they should or shouldn't feel about something, especially when it is based on something that is factual. This isn't a made up fairy tale that people are using to promote their aversion towards a symbol that is virtuous and honorable. Trying to sell the whole Confederate movement as some misunderstood and honorable campaign is silly to me.
That is the thing. You can put said facts in front of a person. It doesn't mean said person will accept it. Loyalty to one's ancestors doesn't include loyalty to their mistakes. This whole "Lost Cause" mythology is part of it. If we look at it from what the history books say, we know the Confederate movement was nothing honorable. They say that the winners get to write the history books. In the case of the Confederates, the losers wrote that story thinking they would win. No one can say "of course it's in the history books. The winners get to tell the story". Articles of Secession and the Confederate Constitution were written by the losers of the war. The Cornerstone Speech was written by the losers of the war.
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If you really believe it then again I don't care if you wear it, display it, live it love it, whatever but don't expect me to. Don't hate me because I don't and don't expect me to want to support it through taxes and holidays or like it when it is done.
We can go further. If said persons are going to keep flying the Confederate flag/make monuments to Confederates and then say "it's my heritage" or "southern heritage", they need to back that up and say what that heritage is. If said persons can't properly explain that, then they should stop offering excuses. We have the facts. We know that slavery was at the heart of this. Knowing that this is fact, why keep on displaying the symbols of that cause? That is a question almost no one wants to answer.
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Trying to tell only part of the story and spin the rest is just an deceptive way of trying to gaslighting black people.
When I was accused of "looking at it through the lens of a Black person", that is gaslighting. Leaving out certain parts is basically lying. It is intellectual dishonesty. It is gaslighting to blame the person you assaulted. The "Lost Cause" was basically a way to keep the South from accepting responsibility for its ugly ways. Reconciliation should have been "we kept slaves, we fought to keep slaves, we were wrong, we're sorry. We should start over anew and work together to build a stronger USA". Instead, it was resistance, erecting statues to Confederates, Jim Crow segregation, waving of Confederate banners as a symbol of "we don't accept integration and racial equality".
We can go further. If said persons are going to keep flying the Confederate flag/make monuments to Confederates and then say "it's my heritage" or "southern heritage", they need to back that up and say what that heritage is. If said persons can't properly explain that, then they should stop offering excuses. We have the facts. We know that slavery was at the heart of this. Knowing that this is fact, why keep on displaying the symbols of that cause? That is a question almost no one wants to answer.
You are right. That was me just giving up in the face of the argument that "these threads never go well" because one side will never see it through the eyes of another. And there's probably several of them that see it as a symbol of just being a Southerner and loving the fact that "we" drive pickups, like to hunt and fish, talk with a Southern drawl and enjoy life differently from Northerners. You'll find plenty of "hate" on this site against that from people in the North who just flat out think Southerners are dumb and backwards. So, part of me, is at peace with those who just look at it from that perspective because I don't get too much heat ever from the typical young person with a battle flag somewhere on his t-shirt or on his truck. But some of these older cats down here that go hard in the paint with the "sons of the confederacy" car tags and that really support the cause. I never get any warm and fuzzy feelings from any of them.
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When I was accused of "looking at it through the lens of a Black person", that is gaslighting. Leaving out certain parts is basically lying. It is intellectual dishonesty. It is gaslighting to blame the person you assaulted. The "Lost Cause" was basically a way to keep the South from accepting responsibility for its ugly ways. Reconciliation should have been "we kept slaves, we fought to keep slaves, we were wrong, we're sorry. We should start over anew and work together to build a stronger USA". Instead, it was resistance, erecting statues to Confederates, Jim Crow segregation, waving of Confederate banners as a symbol of "we don't accept integration and racial equality".
Well to me, that is the heart of it, and the most hurtful thing about it all. Always the condemnation, the air of superiority and the patronizing tone because "you" just aren't smart enough to understand.
You are right. That was me just giving up in the face of the argument that "these threads never go well" because one side will never see it through the eyes of another. And there's probably several of them that see it as a symbol of just being a Southerner and loving the fact that "we" drive pickups, like to hunt and fish, talk with a Southern drawl and enjoy life differently from Northerners. You'll find plenty of "hate" on this site against that from people in the North who just flat out think Southerners are dumb and backwards. So, part of me, is at peace with those who just look at it from that perspective because I don't get too much heat ever from the typical young person with a battle flag somewhere on his t-shirt or on his truck. But some of these older cats down here that go hard in the paint with the "sons of the confederacy" car tags and that really support the cause. I never get any warm and fuzzy feelings from any of them.
Part of me feels like giving up too. In public, I almost never discuss things like this. Among some individuals who ardently love the Confederate flag, it is like fighting words to say what the cause is about.
Here is the thing. I can dig a ride in a pickup truck. I've been fishing(and liked it). I don't have the southern drawl(my father is from the north, I lived on the West Coast for a time). A person can have the southern drawl, go fishing, and love their pickup truck without having the Confederate flag represent that. I know there are people who are proud to be from the South. But why represent that with the Confederate flag? And there is so much more to the South than just pickup trucks and fishing.
There are northerners that flat out hate the South. Nothing new. Some of it by people who have never been to Atlanta or Charlotte.
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Well to me, that is the heart of it, and the most hurtful thing about it all. Always the condemnation, the air of superiority and the patronizing tone because "you" just aren't smart enough to understand.
Alot of what I've gotten wasn't a "patronizing" tone, but rather, one of resentment and anger. At least in my experiences.
Part of me feels like giving up too. In public, I almost never discuss things like this. Among some individuals who ardently love the Confederate flag, it is like fighting words to say what the cause is about.
Here is the thing. I can dig a ride in a pickup truck. I've been fishing(and liked it). I don't have the southern drawl(my father is from the north, I lived on the West Coast for a time). A person can have the southern drawl, go fishing, and love their pickup truck without having the Confederate flag represent that. I know there are people who are proud to be from the South. But why represent that with the Confederate flag? And there is so much more to the South than just pickup trucks and fishing.
There are northerners that flat out hate the South. Nothing new. Some of it by people who have never been to Atlanta or Charlotte.
I don't know. Some do and some don't. I don't get it either, I would rather it just go away entirely (except in museums) or people just see that it will always be a polarizing and inflammatory issue and that there will be others who will reject it loudly and vehemently no matter what and that they just have to be ready to accept that, or at least be ready to try to explain why they do choose to display it.
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What part are you talking about?
I mean the gaslighting. The whole bluster about the Confederate cause being so deep and nuanced that people like us who don't care for the glorifying of traitors and slavers to be acceptable. That somehow we are missing the greater good that the Confederacy is all about because we are black and incapable of perceiving this issue from a rational and intelligent perspective. It is a bunch of bigoted narcissistic hogwash.
I don't know. Some do and some don't. I don't get it either, I would rather it just go away entirely or people just see that it will always be a polarizing and inflammatory issue and that there will be others who will reject it loudly and vehemently no matter what.
I figure this is America, and we're Americans. Being an American would be part of that heritage.
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I mean the gaslighting. The whole bluster about the Confederate cause being so deep and nuanced that people like us who don't care for the glorifying of traitors to be acceptable. That somehow we are missing the greater good that the Confederacy is all about because we are black and incapable of perceiving this issue from a rational and intelligent perspective. It is a bunch of bigoted narcissistic hogwash.
I changed the post to "Alot of what I've gotten wasn't a "patronizing" tone, but rather, one of resentment and anger. At least in my experiences" and I think it was too late when I did.
However, now I get the part you meant by patronizing. I've seen shirts like "it's a Southern thing" and on the back it says "y'all wouldn't understand". I just thought about when I've gotten angry responses. I've heard some patronizing things. It was basically "your point of view is null and void because you're Black. See it our way". They can't refute. Rather than take responsibility, one looks for another way to bring illegitimacy to what you or me have to say.
Yep, gaslighting. In this case, I just stick to what I know is fact. That is how you handle gaslighters. You keep sticking to the facts. Said person wants you to forget the facts.
I'm not a proponent of war by any means. There is plenty of blame to place on both sides. Neither side was morally superior to the other IMO. War was not necessary to eliminate slavery. Every other country did it peacefully.
Sounds to me like we could have some interesting historical conversations over a glass of bourbon!
War was not necessary to eliminate slavey. In another twenty years, it would have likely proved uneconomical. But the North did not start the war, the South did. And it did so to preserve slavery. So I don't believe for a minute there was moral equivalence here.
I find it odd if all the bad things our American ancestors did from nationwide slavery, imperialism, genocide, internment camps, witch hunts, and labor exploitation, the South somehow became the only scapegoat.
Sure Grant kicked out all the Jews in his army, owned slaves, and oversaw the genocide of Native Americans, but it's ok to have a public memorials and statues, and put him on our money, but a statue of Lee? Oh no!
It's probably a symtom of a poor educational system when modern educated people think history is just some kind of story between "good guys vs bad guys".
I have studied up on it. Bleeding Kansas, Missouri Compromise, Wilmot Proviso, the Dred Scott case.
All slavery issues. The point it that there was a LOT more to the Civil War than slavery.
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The slave holding states were scared of losing their way of life, their economy. And you know what? I don't care. When that way of life thrives because of the institution of slavery, and feeling that "slavery is the natural condition of the African", then you don't get to tell me that I can't view it through the lens of me being Black. When the Confederate Constitution explicitly protects the right to enslave people, particularly Blacks, then there is no other lens I can view it from. When the Articles of Secession mention several times the desire to keep slavery and keep Black people enslaved, as a Black man this is personal.
That's a pretty succinct explanation of why you'll never understand it.
I don't think that anyone is arguing that slavery was a good thing (I'm certainly not). But when you allow the color of your skin to keep you from understanding the real issues, it's a problem.
Lincoln didn't go to war to free the slaves. He did it for a host of other reasons, and it is important to understand those reasons.
The South wanted to maintain slavery, but that wasn't the only reason they seceded, there were a host of other reasons.
It really is too bad that you don't understand this.
All slavery issues. The point it that there was a LOT more to the Civil War than slavery.
That's a pretty succinct explanation of why you'll never understand it.
I don't think that anyone is arguing that slavery was a good thing (I'm certainly not). But when you allow the color of your skin to keep you from understanding the real issues, it's a problem.
Lincoln didn't go to war to free the slaves. He did it for a host of other reasons, and it is important to understand those reasons.
The South wanted to maintain slavery, but that wasn't the only reason they seceded, there were a host of other reasons.
It really is too bad that you don't understand this.
If the war was solely about slavery, the North would have invaded Cuba and Brazil as well. They apparently didn't care about those slaves, just Southern slaves. It was after all, just a giant humanitarian mission wasn't it?
If the war was solely about slavery, the North would have invaded Cuba and Brazil as well. They apparently didn't care about those slaves, just Southern slaves. It was after all, just a giant humanitarian mission wasn't it?
The reasons for the North to fight so not negate the South's reasons. The North wanted to save the Union. The South wanted to be free to keep on owning slaves.
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