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Old 05-12-2017, 06:28 PM
Status: "I hate living in Georgia!!" (set 11 days ago)
 
48,098 posts, read 45,475,380 times
Reputation: 15328

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxPhd View Post
All slavery issues. The point it that there was a LOT more to the Civil War than slavery.



That's a pretty succinct explanation of why you'll never understand it.

I don't think that anyone is arguing that slavery was a good thing (I'm certainly not). But when you allow the color of your skin to keep you from understanding the real issues, it's a problem.

Lincoln didn't go to war to free the slaves. He did it for a host of other reasons, and it is important to understand those reasons.

The South wanted to maintain slavery, but that wasn't the only reason they seceded, there were a host of other reasons.

It really is too bad that you don't understand this.
I don't WANT to understand that cause. Putting facts in front of you and you still try to excuse the CSA, that means you are the one with a problem, not me.

Slavery was the primary part, and it has been brewing for years. It was not the only reason, but it was the major catalyst. No amount of gaslighting from you will refute that slavery was the major part of this.

I know Lincoln didn't go to ear to free the slaves. I don't care. All that matters is why the South wanted secession. And by your own admission, slavery was a big part. How can you justify honoring a cause deeply rooted in keeping slavery? And the excuse "it wasn't the only reason " is not good enough.

 
Old 05-12-2017, 06:33 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
425 posts, read 293,818 times
Reputation: 732
I read about five pages of this thread, but what I thought was interesting, is it seems many of the traditional deep South States are removing their Confederate Memorials, Flags and statues, while border States, or States outside the deep South seem to be preserving their Confederate Memorials. Here in Kentucky, looking over our Capital building there is a memorial to the Kentuckians who fought in the Civil War for the South with a large Confederate Flag flying over the graves and Memorial. Hopkinsville, KY has a large monument dedicated to Jefferson Davis who was born in Kentucky, Bowling Green, KY has a memorial to the Kentucky Confederate government who formed their government (for four days only) in Bowling Green, a bust of Jefferson Davis (along with ole Abe) is in the Capital Rotunda, and Kentucky has a large amount of sympathy to the Confederacy. I just thought it was interesting how a border state like Kentucky, which did not officially secede seems to be more supportive of the Confederacy today than it was in 1861, while many deep South states seem to be losing their memorials, etc. at a fast pace.

In regards to Alabama's State Holiday for Confederate Memorial, I don't think it is an issue as it is memorial to the Alabamans who fought and died for what they thought was right. I am not in favor of removing memorials because some groups dislike it. History can repeat itself if we are not careful.
 
Old 05-12-2017, 06:45 PM
Status: "I hate living in Georgia!!" (set 11 days ago)
 
48,098 posts, read 45,475,380 times
Reputation: 15328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100 View Post
I find it odd if all the bad things our American ancestors did from nationwide slavery, imperialism, genocide, internment camps, witch hunts, and labor exploitation, the South somehow became the only scapegoat.
Sure Grant kicked out all the Jews in his army, owned slaves, and oversaw the genocide of Native Americans, but it's ok to have a public memorials and statues, and put him on our money, but a statue of Lee? Oh no!

It's probably a symtom of a poor educational system when modern educated people think history is just some kind of story between "good guys vs bad guys".
No one argues that some bad stuff has been done by the USA. However, here is the difference. The South is the scapegoat because it tried to secede with the objective of keeping slavery.

And no one said Grant was nice. However, we are talking about the South's main objective. The main objective of keeping slavery. Deflecting from the topic does not refute facts. And what you demonstrate is false equivalency.
 
Old 05-12-2017, 06:46 PM
 
7,942 posts, read 3,192,158 times
Reputation: 5455
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
I don't WANT to understand that cause. Putting facts in front of you and you still try to excuse the CSA, that means you are the one with a problem, not me.

Slavery was the primary part, and it has been brewing for years. It was not the only reason, but it was the major catalyst. No amount of gaslighting from you will refute that slavery was the major part of this.

I know Lincoln didn't go to ear to free the slaves. I don't care. All that matters is why the South wanted secession. And by your own admission, slavery was a big part. How can you justify honoring a cause deeply rooted in keeping slavery? And the excuse "it wasn't the only reason " is not good enough.
We honor a lot of ancestors that won't quite pass today's moral standards. What's odd is that you have such a hatred for stuff over a hundred years before your time. You seem to take it too personally. Like them or not they're part of our story as a country. If we just honor the "good" history we wouldn't have much left.

As far as war memorials and memorial days go, the honor is for the people who gave up their lives for a larger cause, sometimes under circumstances they weren't always in control of nor always in agreement with.
If you don't believe the Vietnam War was justified does that justify removing the Vietnam War memorial?
 
Old 05-12-2017, 06:52 PM
 
7,942 posts, read 3,192,158 times
Reputation: 5455
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
No one argues that some bad stuff has been done by the USA. However, here is the difference. The South is the scapegoat because it tried to secede with the objective of keeping slavery.

And no one said Grant was nice. However, we are talking about the South's main objective. The main objective of keeping slavery. Deflecting from the topic does not refute facts. And what you demonstrate is false equivalency.
No the difference seems to be if it's about slavery it's bad, anything else...eh it happens.
If the south had slaves but seceded solely because of unfair tax practices or trade policies, and unequal political representation in Congress, does that make the war less offensive to you?
 
Old 05-12-2017, 07:57 PM
 
Location: Billings, MT
9,535 posts, read 7,836,644 times
Reputation: 13276
Apparently those who decry secession don't remember much about this document:

"When, in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them to another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.
We hold these Truths to be self-evident..." ETC.

If it was valid in 1776, it was still valid in 1860, and it is still valid today!
 
Old 05-13-2017, 12:09 PM
Status: "I hate living in Georgia!!" (set 11 days ago)
 
48,098 posts, read 45,475,380 times
Reputation: 15328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100 View Post
No the difference seems to be if it's about slavery it's bad, anything else...eh it happens.
If the south had slaves but seceded solely because of unfair tax practices or trade policies, and unequal political representation in Congress, does that make the war less offensive to you?
If slavery had nothing to do with it, then the cause would be alot more honorable. However, because so much of the cause was about keeping the institution of slavery, I have no respect for it. Do you know why? I come from slaves. Why would I respect or honor anything that was explicitly committed to making sure my ancestors(or me if I had been living back then) was enslaved and treated like an animal? Why?

That unequal representation in government boiled down to slave state vs free state. Personally, I'm glad the CSA lost.
 
Old 05-13-2017, 12:12 PM
Status: "I hate living in Georgia!!" (set 11 days ago)
 
48,098 posts, read 45,475,380 times
Reputation: 15328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redraven View Post
Apparently those who decry secession don't remember much about this document:

"When, in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them to another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.
We hold these Truths to be self-evident..." ETC.

If it was valid in 1776, it was still valid in 1860, and it is still valid today!
Except the Confederacy was seceding because they wanted to treat human beings as property. Truths self evident that all men are created equal, that was not the ethos of the Confederacy. To compare the American Revolution to the Confederate secession is false equivalency. It is a poor comparison. One movement wanted to be free from taxation without representation, and they were colonies at the time. The CSA consisted of states throwing a fit because of the fear that slavery could be abolished.
 
Old 05-13-2017, 12:16 PM
Status: "I hate living in Georgia!!" (set 11 days ago)
 
48,098 posts, read 45,475,380 times
Reputation: 15328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100 View Post
We honor a lot of ancestors that won't quite pass today's moral standards. What's odd is that you have such a hatred for stuff over a hundred years before your time. You seem to take it too personally. Like them or not they're part of our story as a country. If we just honor the "good" history we wouldn't have much left.

As far as war memorials and memorial days go, the honor is for the people who gave up their lives for a larger cause, sometimes under circumstances they weren't always in control of nor always in agreement with.
If you don't believe the Vietnam War was justified does that justify removing the Vietnam War memorial?
Alot of our ancestors did some bad stuff. However, there is a difference between being flawed, and fighting for a morally disgusting cause. George Washington owned slaves. Okay. He didn't fight for a cause that was rooted in trying to keep slavery. The Confederate cause, in its basis, was about making sure the institution of slavery continued, and wanted to be its own nation in order to have it. Why would anyone want to honor that? You don't honor a cause so deeply rooted in enslaving and treating people like property.

I know what the Vietnam War was about. Fighting communism. That can be respected.
 
Old 05-13-2017, 12:52 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
5,286 posts, read 4,159,354 times
Reputation: 4349
OP, there are too many people getting satisfaction from knowing Confederate Memorial Day makes you upset. I say enjoy that day off and go act a Black A**. Spend the day with friends and have loud, ethnic conversations with raucous laughter and profanity. Wear African attire. Go joyriding and blast some bass-heavy rap through traffic. Shove it in their face that they lost.
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