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Old 05-10-2009, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Alabama!
6,048 posts, read 18,329,436 times
Reputation: 4835

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammie View Post
Sorry, too many of us actually read our history books...
Reading it is one thing. (And remember...history books can lie, too.) Living with it every day, all your life, is another.

Everybody tells us to "get over it." But they don't dig up minnie balls when they go to plant their summer tomatoes. They don't pass Civil War skirmish and battlefields every day. No, they aren't direct descendants of men who fought in the war...and the families who survived it and the aftermath.

And they don't deal with the continual disrespect, condescension, contempt, and ridicule because of where they live, or their accent...as evidenced on these boards.

 
Old 05-10-2009, 11:11 AM
 
Location: So. Dak.
13,495 posts, read 37,317,556 times
Reputation: 15205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Southlander View Post
Reading it is one thing. (And remember...history books can lie, too.) Living with it every day, all your life, is another.

Everybody tells us to "get over it." But they don't dig up minnie balls when they go to plant their summer tomatoes. They don't pass Civil War skirmish and battlefields every day. No, they aren't direct descendants of men who fought in the war...and the families who survived it and the aftermath.

And they don't deal with the continual disrespect, condescension, contempt, and ridicule because of where they live, or their accent...as evidenced on these boards.
My area was never part of the war and neither were my ancestors. At that time, they were turning sod and struggling to find food each day because this was a wild and barren area. It was truly the prairie and was a rough place. I guess in the eyes of some, I'm a Yankee because I live north of the Mason/Dixon line. But I've always hated that war and the way it divided our country and still seems to today yet. The only good thing that war accomplished was the freeing of the slaves. That's a very dark period of history and it's hard to imagine we were barbaric enough to enslave others because of their skin color.

About your last paragraph~is that really how you feel? If so, you do have a legitimate reason to have hard feelings toward others. Just so you know, I feel none of those things for you. We've had a few people from the South who have relocated to our area. They are welcomed here and most seem to like it except for the winter. (That's understandable.) We don't have the criteria that you have to be just like us and accept our ways. The only criteria we have is that you don't ask for grits or sweet tea cause we don't have either one.

I just find the division to be sad. We should be able to feel welcome no matter what part of the country we visit or relocate to. Yet there seems to be so much tension all these years later.
 
Old 05-10-2009, 11:38 AM
 
1,354 posts, read 4,074,214 times
Reputation: 1286
I am the great-great granddaughter of two fine men who fought for the Union. One died in Culpepper, Va. at the battle of Brandy Station leaving an infant daughter behind. The other, although an immigrant from Wales, fought with Sherman and spent years in uniform. His son was a drummer boy.

I, however, though proud of these brave men, agree totally with Southlander. The Confederate soldier was fighting for his homeland and his family. He was not a political animal and most likely had no plantation and no slaves. It was a sad moment for everyone and young men on both sides fought valiantly and died miserably. A soldier is made up of more than a misguided government policy.

What the overarching disagreement was about does not make individual combatants into good and evil. States rights, a unified country, the right of secession, the right of home rule, economic imbalance, and, finally, slavery--it matters not--each side thought they were right and the lowly soldier in the field had no profound thoughts about or say in the matter. To equate a Confederate infantryman with a monster bigoted member of a lynch mob is wrongheaded. It is not that simplistic.

My northern brethren who rant on from their self-righteous position know nothing of living in a land vanquished by an enemy that pillared and scorched their land. They know nothing about rebuilding from defeat and armies maurauding across their homes--however justified. Their history of civil rights leaves much to be desired as well.

It is time to give the South recognition as not a monolith but a group of individuals with different motivations--to recognize its worthy qualities and the blood it spilled--whether the cause was, in historical perspective, wrongheaded or not. Even German soldiers are shown respect as they died for Hitler--they are separated as individuals from the hideous government that ran the show.

The offense committed against the black slaves was worldwide, nationwide, and individual---it reflected a tryanny of superiority over the weak and mirrored the distorted vision of unenlightened societies everywhere at the time. The South has its guilt. But it does not stand alone. Societies are fluid and no generation is all blackhearted without its heroes and good men and women trying to do what is right according to the principles and tenets of the time in which they live. Whole populations cannot be painted as having no redemming qualities.

So-the South has to atone--because it had public policy that defied human rights. It is atoning. And that is only right. But they are entitled to remember their dead and to revere the part of their history of which they are proud. And that should not take away from the legitimate demands of the progeny of those enslaved for apology, remorse, and affirmation.
 
Old 05-10-2009, 11:44 AM
 
10,238 posts, read 19,507,345 times
Reputation: 5942
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammie View Post
Arrogance is never becoming. You can spin history any way that you want and I'm aware that you do that in your profession, but you will not convince the world about "How it REALLY was". Sorry, too many of us actually read our history books and we're not in your classes so we have a more realistic view of the events. Perpetuating fallacies is never the answer even if it makes you feel powerful and "right".
You are right. Arrogance is never becoming. If I got a little "hot under the collar" earlier, then I apologize for it. I could have responded with a little less sarcasm and should have.

With that said though, it is very difficult to react calmly to an assertion that the American South can be compared to Nazi Germany, Stalinist Soviet Union or Sadam's Iraq.

As to the rest of the above, can you be a little more specific? What do you mean "perpetuating fantasies"?

Well and good you have read history books. The first thing anyone seriously interested in history knows is that it not an objective subject. It is shaped by imperfect people with varying interests...and will naturally be interpreted the same way when recording it.

I freely admit that my own take on the War Between the States is "biased" in favor of the South. I have read both sides of it and over the years (my own natural regional affinity not withstanding) became convinced that the South had the best constitutional arguments on its side. Nonetheless, yes, it is "biased".

The thing is, while the "winners history" often becomes accepted as "the truth" thru a sort of "osmosis" over the years, it too is "biased." The history of the American Revolution is biased as well. If the British had won, we would have all grown up -- in the United Colonies of Great Britain -- reading how jolly jim dandy it was that King George III had put down a bunch of "upstart rebels" who had the audacity to dump perfectly good tea into the Boston Harbor! LOL

And...most of us would just have come to accept it as "fact". With any other interpretation being considered revisionist, apologist, or outlandish. It is the nature of the beast.

BTW -- most Southerners know the generally written "winners history" (and I don't mean that term sarcastically at all). But how many (Southern or not), know the Southern side of it? Do you? There are books out there that give it. If not, then it is very arrogant in its own way to accuse others of "perpetuating fantasies" when they themselves have not taken the time to examine all sides.

Quote:
Just sad that so many people don't want a united country. Anything to dredge up the divisions of the past. The excuses of, "My Great Grandaddy fought in that war so I have to keep it alive.." is just ludicrous. Many people have Great Grandaddies who fought and DIED in that war and in many other wars. The sheer lunacy that the war raged because, "The South was getting rich and the North didn't like it" has about run it's course. A nation thrives when all of the areas do well.
Are you suggesting that Southerners who honor the memory of our ancestors and their fighting spirts, don't want a united country? As it is, Southerners have always served in disporportionate numbers in our nation's armed forces. And are the most traditionally "patriotic" (in the old fashioned flag-waving sense of the term) region of the country.

Quote:
That war was fought for one reason and one reason only. Human rights and human dignity.
It was, huh? Can you elaborate a bit on this one? I have many northern friends -- good friends whom I sincerely respect -- who take a totally opposite viewpoint than I do when it comes to the WBTS. And not the most vehement "pro'Union" among them make such a claim as that.

Quote:
This North/South division is getting old. Might be time to consider being a united country and acting like one.
So what is wrong with the different regions celebrating/respecting their own history and heritage? Or it is just the South that should be ashamed of ours?

Finally -- as I have rambled on enough -- let's keep in mind the original incident that prompted the thread. A guy commits a criminal act, traumatizes a old woman who was honoring her ancestor, acts in the most childish bullying, and outrageous way.

Which party was it that contributed more to dis-unity?
 
Old 05-10-2009, 02:43 PM
 
Location: So. Dak.
13,495 posts, read 37,317,556 times
Reputation: 15205
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
You are right. Arrogance is never becoming. If I got a little "hot under the collar" earlier, then I apologize for it. I could have responded with a little less sarcasm and should have.

With that said though, it is very difficult to react calmly to an assertion that the American South can be compared to Nazi Germany, Stalinist Soviet Union or Sadam's Iraq.

As to the rest of the above, can you be a little more specific? What do you mean "perpetuating fantasies"?

Well and good you have read history books. The first thing anyone seriously interested in history knows is that it not an objective subject. It is shaped by imperfect people with varying interests...and will naturally be interpreted the same way when recording it.

I freely admit that my own take on the War Between the States is "biased" in favor of the South. I have read both sides of it and over the years (my own natural regional affinity not withstanding) became convinced that the South had the best constitutional arguments on its side. Nonetheless, yes, it is "biased".

The thing is, while the "winners history" often becomes accepted as "the truth" thru a sort of "osmosis" over the years, it too is "biased." The history of the American Revolution is biased as well. If the British had won, we would have all grown up -- in the United Colonies of Great Britain -- reading how jolly jim dandy it was that King George III had put down a bunch of "upstart rebels" who had the audacity to dump perfectly good tea into the Boston Harbor! LOL

And...most of us would just have come to accept it as "fact". With any other interpretation being considered revisionist, apologist, or outlandish. It is the nature of the beast.

BTW -- most Southerners know the generally written "winners history" (and I don't mean that term sarcastically at all). But how many (Southern or not), know the Southern side of it? Do you? There are books out there that give it. If not, then it is very arrogant in its own way to accuse others of "perpetuating fantasies" when they themselves have not taken the time to examine all sides.



Are you suggesting that Southerners who honor the memory of our ancestors and their fighting spirts, don't want a united country? As it is, Southerners have always served in disporportionate numbers in our nation's armed forces. And are the most traditionally "patriotic" (in the old fashioned flag-waving sense of the term) region of the country.



It was, huh? Can you elaborate a bit on this one? I have many northern friends -- good friends whom I sincerely respect -- who take a totally opposite viewpoint than I do when it comes to the WBTS. And not the most vehement "pro'Union" among them make such a claim as that.



So what is wrong with the different regions celebrating/respecting their own history and heritage? Or it is just the South that should be ashamed of ours?

Finally -- as I have rambled on enough -- let's keep in mind the original incident that prompted the thread. A guy commits a criminal act, traumatizes a old woman who was honoring her ancestor, acts in the most childish bullying, and outrageous way.

Which party was it that contributed more to dis-unity?
Tama, that was a very well thought-out post. I need to reread it cause I don't think I caught it all.

TexReb, I admire your readiness to apologize for "getting hot under the collar" , as you put it.

I'll try my best to reply to the questions you asked. By "Perpetuating fantasies", I'm referring to the myth that the South was wealthy and the North didn't like it so bang~instant war. The fact that it's often referred to as "The War of Northern Agression" tells me that some people actually believe it was merely an attack on their territory in order to gain riches. I'm sure you've heard AND read such comments as, "It had nothing to do with slavery. They just wanted our riches." I'll venture a guess that you can find those same comments more then a dozen times just on this forum.

The theory that it was ok to buy and own slaves because, "It was their own people who sold them" doesn't make sense to me either. It was a case of supply and demand so no one can be innocent for contributing to that market. Their own people may have sold them, but buying them didn't give anyone a free ticket for no wrong-doing.

And no, I'm not suggesting that because you are a Southerner you aren't Patriotic. Neither am I suggesting that anyone from the South who honors their fallen ancestors who fought in the Civil War aren't Patriotic. But have you ever done a comparison of how many Civil War re-enactments are done in the South vs. in the North? Maybe it's a war that we can learn from and let it go???? Maybe it could be redirected at honoring the graves of the men who fought in the World Wars or Korea or VietNam.

I come from a small population state and I don't know how the current numbers look, but we have always had a very high rate of servicemen/women in proportion to our population so one specific area does not hold a monopoly on it.

As far as the history of the "winners"~were there really ANY WINNERS in that war? Seriously, I often get the impression that our country is still divided. Families were torn apart and relatives/family were in battle against each other. There were a tremendous amount of fatalities on both sides.

And of course I remember the original theme of this thread. I just think it's sad that there isn't a better solution for honoring those soldiers. They deserve it and in my mind, they weren't an enemy. Couldn't there possibly be a design for a special wreath that would show respect for a soldier who died in that war? Wouldn't it be possible to to use that same wreath (or whatever could be used) for ALL the soldiers who lost their lives in that war?

And no, the South should NOT be ashamed of their traditions or their heritage. I guess I'm not sure where those thoughts come from and I doubt that many Northerners or Midwesterners feel superior to people from the South. I'd guess those feelings come from some dynamics that I honestly know nothing about.

It just seems that this war has been hashed and rehashed so many times. For instance, you made a reference to the War with England. How often do you read or speak about a division between our country and Mother England? We're best buds now and have been for years.

I dunno, I say just get together and design something new to memoralize all fatalaties of that horrible war, make it a national law that the graves will not be disturbed by removing it, and move on. I'm sure you've noticed that we're one of the most hated countries in the world. That may be changing a bit, but I'm sure it makes a lot of countries happy when we sit and squabble about our differences and divisions and an old war that separated our country.
 
Old 05-10-2009, 06:35 PM
 
Location: Alabama!
6,048 posts, read 18,329,436 times
Reputation: 4835
Last Tuesday night, the councilman who took the flags off the graves offered an apology.
Dowdell apologizes | Opelika-Auburn News (http://www.oanow.com/oan/news/local/article/dowdell_apologizes/71268/ - broken link)
As you'll see...lots of discussion and lots of long-winded comments there, too.
 
Old 05-13-2009, 10:24 PM
 
10 posts, read 50,780 times
Reputation: 14
As a citizen of Auburn, Alabama, where the incident in questions occurred, I have read this thread and the comments with great interest. Wish I'd found it sooner - who knew so many folks from all over the country were even aware of what was going on in our little town?! Mr. Dowdell was wrong to remove anything from any graves, but those of his own family. He has provided a public apology of sorts. So be it. The very existence of this entire forum is possible because of the rights and freedoms we possess as Americans. Let him have his opinions and let the little lady honor her ancestors in her way without infringing on one another's rights. Now....I second the vote that this thread be closed. Moderator?
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