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Old 09-28-2010, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Not far from Fairbanks, AK
12,920 posts, read 13,885,506 times
Reputation: 8327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd_Davidson View Post
Take a course on civics, and stop blathering your ignorance of from here to there.

Mao's government was not that way, neither were European governments at the time our Constitution was written. But our Constitution was significantly modeled on the Great Binding Law of the Iroquios Confederation. They and virtually every Native culture in North America had systems of governance that were based on personal liberty and government by the people.

You'd think folks who make so much noise about "strick construction" of our Constitution would at least read the darned thing!
Mao government should be your idea of "government" in that everyone, in one way or another, worked for the government.

The federal Government is not "the people." The Federal government represents the people, but it cannot be both the people it represents and the people themselves. It's a beautiful concept, but it can only apply to people-elected individuals, and to those appointed by these elected individuals. The Federal government of today is comprised of elected and non-elected individuals, and no department is the rest of the people (the private sector). So, under Mao and you, both the private sector and the government would have been the same "The people."

 
Old 09-28-2010, 08:42 PM
 
Location: 112 Ocean Avenue
5,706 posts, read 4,671,888 times
Reputation: 8659
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd_Davidson View Post
But our Constitution was significantly modeled on the Great Binding Law of the Iroquios Confederation.
True. They were based in upstate NY where I used to live. There's more streets named Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, and Seneca that you can shake a stick at. As well as a few of the dorms where I went to college.

The five nations later turned into six with the Tuscarora joining the League. They're down in North or South Carolina. I've had some interesting, and educational talks with a couple of the them.
 
Old 09-28-2010, 08:58 PM
 
917 posts, read 876,152 times
Reputation: 734
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayinAK View Post
The federal Government is not "the people." The Federal government represents the people, but it cannot be both the people it represents and the people themselves.
The operative words are: government of the people, by the people and for the people



Quote
It's a beautiful concept, but it can only apply to people-elected individuals, and to those appointed by these elected individuals. The Federal government of today is comprised of elected and non-elected individuals, and no department is the rest of the people (the private sector). So, under Mao and you, both the private sector and the government would have been the same "The people.

The government consists of several different classes: i.e.
Elected President, Legislators and Appointed Judiciary and the various State forms: States, Commonwealths,

The private sector isn't government.
 
Old 09-28-2010, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Not far from Fairbanks, AK
12,920 posts, read 13,885,506 times
Reputation: 8327
Quote:
Originally Posted by richelles View Post
The operative words are: government of the people, by the people and for the people


It's a beautiful concept, but it can only apply to people-elected individuals, and to those appointed by these elected individuals. The Federal government of today is comprised of elected and non-elected individuals, and no department is the rest of the people (the private sector). So, under Mao and you, both the private sector and the government would have been the same "The people."[/quote]

The government consists of several different classes: i.e.
Elected President, Legislators and Appointed Judiciary and the various State forms: States, Commonwealths,

The private sector isn't government.[/quote]
If as Floyd has said that "the federal government is we the people" was true, then every US citizen would be the Federal Government, and a private sector would not exist. Everyone of us would be a public-sector or government worker.

That was my point: since the Federal Government of today is not entirely comprised of elected individuals, (or of those appointed-by-lected individuals), the very nice concept of "government of the people, by the people, and for the people," is not longer possible. It cannot be, simply because the private sector is also comprised of people.
 
Old 09-28-2010, 09:17 PM
 
Location: Barrow, Alaska
3,538 posts, read 4,359,748 times
Reputation: 1791
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayinAK View Post
Mao government should be your idea of "government" in that everyone, in one way or another, worked for the government.

The federal Government is not "the people." The Federal government represents the people, but it cannot be both the people it represents and the people themselves. It's a beautiful concept, but it can only apply to people-elected individuals, and to those appointed by these elected individuals. The Federal government of today is comprised of elected and non-elected individuals, and no department is the rest of the people (the private sector). So, under Mao and you, both the private sector and the government would have been the same "The people."
Is some part of that supposed to make sense? Here it is only 7PM and you are already intoxicated to the point of being unintelligible.

If "government" represents the people and those same people have control of who the representative is, then the people are the government.

Our Constitution says so Ray, and tomorrow when your vision is a little more acute, you should try reading it. Check out a few related documents too, like the Federalists papers, the Declaration of Independence and the Articles of Confederation .

You can babble all you like denying it, but the whole world knows better... except for right wingnuts!
 
Old 09-28-2010, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Not far from Fairbanks, AK
12,920 posts, read 13,885,506 times
Reputation: 8327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd_Davidson View Post
Is some part of that supposed to make sense? Here it is only 7PM and you are already intoxicated to the point of being unintelligible.

If "government" represents the people and those same people have control of who the representative is, then the people are the government.

Our Constitution says so Ray, and tomorrow when your vision is a little more acute, you should try reading it. Check out a few related documents too, like the Federalists papers, the Declaration of Independence and the Articles of Confederation .

You can babble all you like denying it, but the whole world knows better... except for right wingnuts!
Go ahead, Floyd...get a little more, and more, and more exited. Just make sure that you stop before you heart a heart attack

You said that "we the people" are The Federal Government, and I have said that we aren't the Federal Government, and have explained why: because the Federal Government of today is not longer comprised of elected individuals and other individuals appointed by these elected individuals. Are you forgetting the the private sector is comprised of people, and that if the private sector cannot be the Federal Government? If as you have said "we the people are the Federal Government" would be true, then the Federal government would by both the private and public sectors (everyone would be the Federal Government.

The whole idea about "we the people" is a beautiful concept. That's all.

Last edited by RayinAK; 09-28-2010 at 09:42 PM..
 
Old 09-28-2010, 09:32 PM
 
Location: Barrow, Alaska
3,538 posts, read 4,359,748 times
Reputation: 1791
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayinAK View Post
If as Floyd has said that "the federal government is we the people" was true, then every US citizen would be the Federal Government, and a private sector would not exist. Everyone of us would be a public-sector or government worker.
There is no such dichotomy. I am a citizen of Alaska, I'm also a citizen of the United States of American. It isn't one or the other. I can be a part of the government merely by voting in an election, but that doesn't mean I can't work in the private sector too. Most of our State legislators hold jobs in the private sector, which does not mean they are not part of the State government.

You aren't thinking about what you are saying. This discussion is trivially absurd!

Quote:
That was my point: since the Federal Government of today is not entirely comprised of elected individuals, (or of those appointed-by-lected individuals), the very nice concept of "government of the people, by the people, and for the people," is not longer possible. It cannot be, simply because the private sector is also comprised of people.[/b]
That's utter nonsense. Being part of one does not necessarily exclude anyone from also being part of the other. The only time it does is when there is a financial conflict of interest for someone who is responsible for government regulation of some part of the private sector. The average citizen votes and works at a private sector job on the same day.
 
Old 09-28-2010, 09:39 PM
 
457 posts, read 645,488 times
Reputation: 206
Its a big mess and a bunch of uneducated compromiised tools have control and they cant spend there way out of it.

The value of all you see today will drop 70%. YOUR WALLET.

Go hard and just use the L R Matrix for entertainment.
Watchin 100% propaganda tv? Your another fool they love.

Utterly bancrupt My Alaskan Friends.
States rights and the power of local LEO ? You are wasteing energy-- Go climb Denali and live.
 
Old 09-28-2010, 09:46 PM
 
15,944 posts, read 15,532,093 times
Reputation: 6955
Life just keeps getting better out here

Quote:
This message is hidden because Manmountain is on your ignore list.


Ray...the United States is a republic. Now, what does that word mean in Latin?
 
Old 09-28-2010, 09:51 PM
 
Location: Barrow, Alaska
3,538 posts, read 4,359,748 times
Reputation: 1791
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayinAK View Post
Go ahead, Floyd...get a little more, and more, and more exited. Just make sure that you stop before you heart a heart attack
Just because you have again run up against logic that you can't refute doesn't mean anyone is "more excited". Actually this sort of thing is a bit boring, because it's the same old ideological, rather than logical, abstractions. (In one word: nonsense.)
Quote:
You said that "we the people" are The Federal Government, and I have said that we aren't the Federal Government, and have explained why.
When are you going to explain why? The only thing you've done is 1) deny what the founding fathers said it was, and 2) set up a false dichotomy that has never been true.

You can say these silly thing repeatedly, but they still won't be true. What you cannot deny is that the Founding Fathers very purposely defined a "citizen government". We, the people, are the most important part of our government.
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