Collective bargaining rights restricted (lawyers, deductible, incomes)

[Floyd_Davidson]

Originally Posted by galtsgulch

Also, note that the top 10% of earners pay 73% of the tax burden. In addition, public employees in 41 states now earn more in pay and benefits than private sector workers.

I am somewhat skeptical of the source, because that statement is clearly a crafted example of how to distort facts.

Ten percent of "earners" does not include the most wealthy individuals, who may have a lot of money, but they are not wage earners. The way it is described sounds as if the wealthy are being taxed to death; which is not true. The top wage earners are being taxed to death. The middle class is vanishing, and when it does things will change. Just look at the history of South America for a preview of the new America.

[Milleka]

Originally Posted by galtsgulch

47% of Americans already don't pay federal income tax. And the US has the second highest corporate tax rate in the world at over 37%.

Also, note that the top 10% of earners pay 73% of the tax burden. In addition, public employees in 41 states now earn more in pay and benefits than private sector workers.

Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax - Yahoo! Finance (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-apf-1105567323.html?x=0&.v=1 - broken link)

Wisconsin one of 41 states where public workers earn more - USATODAY.com

Just keep attacking the new remaining producers in this country. Why don't we all just go work for the state??

But those stats lump ALL government employees, including politicians, into the category of "public employee". Those figures do not reflect the true situation. I'll bet, if you look at where those facts were generated, you would see a particular agenda attached to it.

[Milleka]

Originally Posted by Floyd_Davidson

I am somewhat skeptical of the source, because that statement is clearly a crafted example of how to distort facts.

Ten percent of "earners" does not include the most wealthy individuals, who may have a lot of money, but they are not wage earners. The way it is described sounds as if the wealthy are being taxed to death; which is not true. The top wage earners are being taxed to death. The middle class is vanishing, and when it does things will change. Just look at the history of South America for a preview of the new America.

It is true. All the facts point to the extinction of the middle class.

[Frostnip]

Originally Posted by galtsgulch

Also, note that the top 10% of earners pay 73% of the tax burden. In addition, public employees in 41 states now earn more in pay and benefits than private sector workers.

Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax - Yahoo! Finance (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-apf-1105567323.html?x=0&.v=1 - broken link)

Wisconsin one of 41 states where public workers earn more - USATODAY.com

In a study that didn't, you may note, adjust for education level, years of experience, types of jobs, etc. The majority of government jobs require specialized training or college degrees. Statistics can be numerically correct without actually being an honest representation.

eta: just noticed the Atlas Shrugged username...probably no point in arguing with a Rand adherent.

[tasha998]

Originally Posted by Milleka

I don't get it Met. I've said numerous times that I make $34,000 a year after 8 years of experience and a Bachelor's +15. Is that a lot of money by American standards? Really. I want to know. Is $34,000 considered to be a "cushy" salary?

Thank goodness I'm married or I would have to go on welfare. My husband and I are barely making it as it is between a mortgage, car payment, groceries, gas, etc. He makes slightly more than me as a welding supervisor.

The difference between private sector and public sector is really becoming apparent to me. I'm graduating this June and looked at local (Oregon) speech language pathology jobs in the schools. They start here at $34,000-$37,000. My best friend looked at hospital jobs--and found a half time job with benefits that starts at $35,000. Even accounting for the vacation differences, a similar school job would have to start around $55,000 to be equal. No wonder that my class of 22 graduates has only a few people still planning to work in schools! I do think the gap closes over the years, and that both school and hospital slp's eventually make similar salaries, but that's a stark difference for starting out. Of course, it varies by state. Alaska looks like it pays it's teachers better than Oregon, at least with a Masters.

Originally Posted by galtsgulch

47% of Americans already don't pay federal income tax. And the US has the second highest corporate tax rate in the world at over 37%.

Also, note that the top 10% of earners pay 73% of the tax burden. In addition, public employees in 41 states now earn more in pay and benefits than private sector workers.

Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax - Yahoo! Finance (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-apf-1105567323.html?x=0&.v=1 - broken link)

Wisconsin one of 41 states where public workers earn more - USATODAY.com

Just keep attacking the new remaining producers in this country. Why don't we all just go work for the state??

It's interesting to me to compare that tax statistic to the recent Mother Jones charts about distribution of wealth in America. (reprinted on yahoo: Separate but unequal: Charts show growing rich-poor gap - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110223/ts_yblog_thelookout/separate-but-unequal-charts-show-growing-rich-poor-gap - broken link)

People say the wealthy are already paying too much, and I've often heard criticism of tax credits such as the earned income credit or first time homebuyer's credit as being a redistribution of wealth. It seems to me, though, that despite the fact that many people don't pay taxes and are even getting money as an IRS "gift," wealth overall is really moving towards the wealthy and we are losing the middle class.

[freezengirl]

I hope this link works-some pretty good charts
Wealth And Inequality In America

[arctichomesteader]

We won't solve the problems in this country of crooked politicians enriching themselves, big business being in bed with government, taxes out of control, etc., without an amendment (or multiple amendments) to the Constitution, which won't happen unless by some chance enough states call for a convention to bypass Congress.

[Dakster]

Originally Posted by Frostnip

In a study that didn't, you may note, adjust for education level, years of experience, types of jobs, etc. The majority of government jobs require specialized training or college degrees. Statistics can be numerically correct without actually being an honest representation.

eta: just noticed the Atlas Shrugged username...probably no point in arguing with a Rand adherent.

The figures never lie, but liars always figure...

You can paint whatever picture you want with accurate data... Spin Doctors get paid big buck for doing this.
--

And as hinted at, if we are in that dire straits, the gov't should get out of foreign wars and supporting foriegn governments. There is plenty of fat to cut, before we resort to cutting PROMISES that were made to Public Workers.

I remember applying and accepting a work contract. It had pay rates (grades) and benefits listed. It didn't say, if we felt like it, you will get a pension. It was spelled out line by line, word for word. In fact, if I left before 10 years of service I wouldn't get a penny in retirement (vesting period). Now that I have 16 years in, they are looking at eliminating our pensions. I can't wind the clock back and pick another career at this point. Where was my 'exaggerated' salary back in 2006/2007 when private workers were raking it in? I stayed the course and stuck it out. Now that it has crashed those that didn't prepare are jealous. I didn't see this when they were making 2-4 times as much per year as I was. And I didn't jump over when the grass looked greener on the other side either.

I agree some changes should be made to stop the abuses - but not at the expense of every hard-working and honest employee. I noticed that Alaska has a multi-tiered pension system based on hire date. To me that seems the fairest way to make most changes. This way, you are not changing the rules midstream.

Out of curisoity, without collective bargaining and one voice to negotiate with, does this mean every employee will negotiate their own contract independantly?

[freezengirl]

Our system of governence is under systemic attack on a number of fronts. I think it is imperative that we as a people really think about who/what/why and where and how we have allowed this country to skew so badly off course. Fighting amongst ourselves, blindly following our own political ideology or bias is not going to work this time. We need to get off our butts and fight for our country and our communities.

[galtsgulch]

Originally Posted by Frostnip

In a study that didn't, you may note, adjust for education level, years of experience, types of jobs, etc. The majority of government jobs require specialized training or college degrees. Statistics can be numerically correct without actually being an honest representation.

eta: just noticed the Atlas Shrugged username...probably no point in arguing with a Rand adherent.

Yes, yes - attack the statistics but none of you can refute them with any of your own. Yahoo and USA Today are real bastions of right wing propoganda, as opposed to say Mother Jones?