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Old 08-05-2011, 11:14 PM
 
16,103 posts, read 16,087,190 times
Reputation: 7139

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayinAK View Post
Well, that's good news (good business, really) Probably not eating salmon lately. Right?
Every day. I need the Vitamin D.

Ray, you missed your calling in life. You should have been a halibut cop.
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Old 08-05-2011, 11:23 PM
 
Location: Not far from Fairbanks, AK
13,047 posts, read 14,652,567 times
Reputation: 8425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
No they contain the potential for resources, without a means to get to it then they're worthless. If they were so important, then surely someone would already be taking advantage of them... No? Or at least built a road to them don't you think? Certainly the worst possible time for taking advantage of them would be where the dollar was worth what a Rentenmark was in about 1924.

By what promise does the government give to whoever wants to exploit that resource that it's exploitable? Or does it just give it away on condition of getting a license fee for any extraction? How would it guarantee that the fee would be paid, or even that the resource would be developed, given that it's totally illiquid? In individual cases of illiquidity, people normally take what they can get, so a $5k car goes for $1k. Would you be happy about that? After all they're your assets too...?

Are you really proposing that the government suspends the 4th Amendment? So they take other peoples businesses and pay them what? Can't be dollars they're worthless...? (See below for more discussion on this).

If the promise of the US is worthless then the dollar is worthless, indeed every currency on the market is purely a government promise from the issuing government that it holds value. It's quite the house of cards.



Using some logic that is not of this world agreed.



Ray, if the dollar is worthless, then what will the government use to supply said dependents with medical care and support. Forget about UCMJ for a moment, and put yourself in the position that you are not being paid, your family is in an unsecure location, the police/fire/EMS are not being paid. Now tell me you'd give a hoot about the possibility of being caught and tried for desertion. There's an implicit expectation about Military service, that being that while you defend your country, your country is defending your family. No dollar means there's little chance your country can defend your family.

Its only families on base who could rely on any Mil support, and then there would be a significant amount of manpower needed to be spent to ensure security of both sensitive areas of a base stuffed with refugee families, and the base itself from others who know there is gas/food/medical in there. It also only applies to immediate family (spouses/children) and ignores parents, siblings and their siblings kids. Who would all be outside that fence fending for themselves.

Then there's also holding allegiance to a government that has failed in one of it's prime constitutional responsibilities (minting coin), at the end of the day the Military swears allegiance to the Constitution (enlisted also swear allegiance to their superiors and the Presidency), and not the federal government/ In this instance I think that there would be a good argument that the Federal Government is a domestic enemy, through their own actions or inactions. This would be especially true if they issued any subsequent order suspending the constitution (to get around that pesky 4th Amendment), or issuing any standing order to fire on civilians acting lawfully (which may also contravene command responsibility, which may be of more concern with a shaky government).



Sure central governments would, they're not getting paid, or more realistically they might be getting paid but with monopoly money. Even if Congress, the Presidency, and the Supreme Court did not dissolve, then how will they operate? You think that the FBI are going to go and fight the good fight, when they're getting paid a gallon of gas a month? How about the EPA, BLM, DOE, DEA, TLA ()? Or is there going to be some "special" payment scheme for them too? So that's 2M Federal and 1.5M military, with for the sake of argument an average of 3 dependents (spouse and two kids), or 12M people who need to be fed, clothed, medicated, and fueled by a bankrupt government. Even assuming there's a way to overcome the huge logistics problems of doing that, how long could all of them live on any stockpiles? A month? Two Months? Not forever that's for sure, maybe not even long enough to provide time for an interim currency to be established and international trade resumed.

It's not rational to believe that the federal government could continue operate in this situation, it has no currency, an economy that's generating nothing (well possibly local currency that's worthless more likely a hedge currency that's offshore), millions of people who have no means to access food, water, clothing, medical treatment, fuel, power, and it might have suspended constitutional protections. It's several orders of magnitude worse than FEMA's worst nightmare, not to mention the external effects of other economies tied into the Dollar, i.e. Sterling, Euro, Yuan, Yen, etc who might be better off than the US, but it's not going to be plain sailing for them either.
If the dollar loses its value, the only thing the nation has left is: natural resources. And Alaska has plenty. Without the military protecting these resources it's for the taking by other nations. On an economic collapse, a nation must to protect its resources, because without these it can't defend itself. Look at what happened through the Great Depression, and right through WWII where we built ships, aircraft, tanks, and so forth.
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Old 08-05-2011, 11:52 PM
 
Location: Nebraska
2,767 posts, read 3,888,901 times
Reputation: 2812
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metlakatla View Post
What would get to people in the interior is the lack of available Vitamin C. People would be dropping like flies from scurvy.
Saurkraut is loaded with Vitamin C and some of the largest heads of cabbage I have ever seen were close to the Artic Circle. So your worry is unfounded.
GL2
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Old 08-06-2011, 12:12 AM
 
16,103 posts, read 16,087,190 times
Reputation: 7139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunluvver2 View Post
Saurkraut is loaded with Vitamin C and some of the largest heads of cabbage I have ever seen were close to the Artic Circle. So your worry is unfounded.
GL2
Not exactly. In a shtf situation, people might not have adequate time to have put up enough saurkraut and frozen enough berries to make it through the winter. That's my whole point...those who are prepared just might be all right but those who aren't are more certainly sol. That's what happened to a lot of the gold rushers....they had plenty of food but yet died of scurvy.

Again, the interior is possibly survivable for those who have the chance and the motivation to prepare for it and who already are living the kind of lifestyle that MissingAll4Seasons is...but most people aren't.

Last edited by Metlakatla; 08-06-2011 at 12:55 AM..
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Old 08-06-2011, 12:43 AM
 
Location: Alaska
3,779 posts, read 1,770,189 times
Reputation: 1984
I can tell you that the moose and bou population would take a very quick turn for the worse in my area..
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Old 08-06-2011, 01:27 AM
 
Location: Not far from Fairbanks, AK
13,047 posts, read 14,652,567 times
Reputation: 8425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metlakatla View Post
Every day. I need the Vitamin D.

Ray, you missed your calling in life. You should have been a halibut cop.
Not a cop But would not not mind hanging around your side of the pond taking pictures and eating salmon

Hey, Met. Frost forecasted for tonight around Fairbanks:
http://newsminer.com/view/full_story/14966580/article-Frost-advisory-issued-for-parts-of-Tanana-Valley-tonight?instance=home_news_window_left_top_1 (broken link)
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Old 08-06-2011, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Nebraska
2,767 posts, read 3,888,901 times
Reputation: 2812
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metlakatla View Post
Not exactly. In a shtf situation, people might not have adequate time to have put up enough saurkraut and frozen enough berries to make it through the winter. That's my whole point...those who are prepared just might be all right but those who aren't are more certainly sol. That's what happened to a lot of the gold rushers....they had plenty of food but yet died of scurvy.

Again, the interior is possibly survivable for those who have the chance and the motivation to prepare for it and who already are living the kind of lifestyle that MissingAll4Seasons is...but most people aren't.
If you live in Alaska without being prepared. . . you shouldn't be there.
GL2
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Old 08-06-2011, 03:22 PM
 
16,103 posts, read 16,087,190 times
Reputation: 7139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunluvver2 View Post
If you live in Alaska without being prepared. . . you shouldn't be there.
GL2
I know that but I'm looking at the situation as it is rather than how it should be.
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Old 08-06-2011, 04:33 PM
 
Location: "Out there" in Alaska.
305 posts, read 314,384 times
Reputation: 464
Three whole pages on this and I'm still scratching my head. Nearly all the responses have assumed a best case scenario for their plan. Not according to plan, the weather wouldn't cooperate or an earthquake would topple your tent and you'd lose all that you'd stored, or an envirnmental oops would contaminate the ocean and the seafare would be inedible or...you get the picture. If it got that bad, why would I want to prolong the misery?
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Old 08-06-2011, 04:43 PM
 
Location: on top of a mountain
7,016 posts, read 6,919,780 times
Reputation: 3145
not even aliens will survive in the end!
.

Last edited by blueflames50; 08-06-2011 at 04:55 PM..
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