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Old 04-20-2012, 01:08 PM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,213 posts, read 28,295,642 times
Reputation: 24743

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SityData View Post
Then Prove how; out of nothing - everything was perfectly designed with great incredible precision.

Mankind has yet to make a watch or clock that is as precise as the universe. And somehow "nothing" created it better than man can accomplish

Just how do you go about proving that this is just happenstance? Show me facts -!
The apparent "design" in the universe is an illusion. More than that, it is a powerful illusion which leads people to believe there must be a designer.

However, we now know scientifically that the universe and everything in it came about through natural processes. The most recent discoveries in physics suggest that our universe (space, time, matter, energy and natural laws) may have arisen spontaneously from nothing by means of quantum mechanical effects. A quantum vacuum fluctuation may have been the seed for the expansion of time and space (the big bang). Scientific discoveries - such as virtual particles appearing out of empty space and then disappearing again - are often counterintuitive to normal experience.

But let's assume for the sake of argument that God created the universe. So then, what is this supposed to mean for us today? Do we make assumptions based on assumptions based on assumptions ad infinitum based on nothing but our imaginations?

Last edited by BigCityDreamer; 04-20-2012 at 01:22 PM..

 
Old 04-20-2012, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Point Hope Alaska
4,320 posts, read 4,738,637 times
Reputation: 1146
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
The apparent "design" in the universe is an illusion. More than that, it is a powerful illusion which leads people to believe there must be a designer.

However, we now know scientifically that the universe and everything in it came about through natural processes. The most recent discoveries in physics suggest that our universe (space, time, matter, energy and natural laws) may have arisen spontaneously from nothing by means of quantum mechanical effects. A quantum vacuum fluctuation may have been the seed for the expansion of time and space (the big bang).
An illusion that is precise in keeping perfect and precise time - so much so that the Mayans were able to construct a calendar that is so precise it can predict an event that only occurs once every 26,000 years.

This illusion you speak of has corrupted your brain & thought process!

However, we now know scientifically that the universe and everything in it came about through natural processes.

God's creation is not one of a natural process but by the power of HIS WORD

Let light be ... and the light was formed. Those three words that God spoke - were not a process that is considered a natural process.

Thanks!!
 
Old 04-20-2012, 01:55 PM
 
4,715 posts, read 10,459,833 times
Reputation: 2186
Those rules I completely understand and back when they were created (handed down, whatever you believe in) they made sense. I knew 95% of what you posted.

It is when you get into the rules that orthodox Jews follow to the T that I don't understand. Another man cannot touch a married woman in way. (not even a hug say hello or shake hands) and she wears a wig in public. This work rule on the sabbath that can even get in the way of life saving measures. Hotels here have elevators that automatically stop on every floor and the doors open as pushing a button is considered 'work' - heck that beats walking up the stairs! Had a friend who was asked to turn the stove off that his orthodox neighbors left on accidentally from the previous night - they couldn't touch it (work) - then when they realized he was Jewish, wouldn't let him turn it off either. He isn't orthodox and didn't mind, but it is against there belief to let hum turn it off. Luckily, the housekeeper from next door wasn't Jewish and she turned the stove off.
 
Old 04-20-2012, 02:47 PM
 
Location: Bethel, Alaska
21,368 posts, read 37,903,237 times
Reputation: 13901
God, what's a million years to you?

A Second.

God, what is a million dollars to you?

A penny.

God, will you give me a penny?

Yes, I will...in a second.
 
Old 04-20-2012, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Point Hope Alaska
4,320 posts, read 4,738,637 times
Reputation: 1146
Quote:
Originally Posted by globetraveler View Post
I'm certainly not an expert, however I can provide what I know growing up Jewish.

Since the Torah does not specify any reason for these laws, for a Torah-observant Jew, there is no need for any other reason. I always hated this answer growing up when asking a question about a rule or ritual in Judaism.



A couple of little trivia items:
The Torah is/are the first 5 books in the bible written by Moses 5,000 years ago.

Here is something I find truly FASCINATING .

If you take the book of Genesis (1st book) The Hebrew text.

Count every 7th letter of the Hebrew text - It spells TORAH

Now go to the next book - Exodus - count every seventh letter in the Hebrew text - it spells TORAH

Now go to the next book - Leviticus - count every seventh letter in the Hebrew text - it spells ***** "nothing"! -gibberish

Now go to the fourth book Numbers - count every seventh letter in the Hebrew Text - it spells Horat (torah backwards)

Now go to the fifth and final book - Dueteronomy - count every seventh letter in the Hebrew Text - it spells Horat (torah backwards)

Stand back and look: The first two books point to the RIGHT the middle ONE is empty - The last two books point to the Left All four books point to LEVITICUS which is THE LAW

What is even more mind boggling is that exact detailed information about:

Adolph Hitler (evil man Nazi - the destruction of my people- Auschwitz Zorban B the exact name of the gas used) - John Kennedy - WWII - Timothy McVeigh (the exact date & time of the Oklahoma bombing and the exact number of people killed.)


All of those incredible documented facts: Are in a book that was written 5,000 years ago!

And some people claim - there is no god - Psalm 14 & Psalm 53 has more into to ponder. Each is identical (warning).

Shaking my head... .. walking away ?????
 
Old 04-20-2012, 02:55 PM
 
Location: Alaska
3,146 posts, read 4,053,507 times
Reputation: 5470
Quote:
Originally Posted by Type O Negtive View Post
As it should be. I thought this was the land of freedom of religion, how does that work if I am supposed to get the bible and that stuff pushed down my throat?
I can choose to believe or not and my rights are protected in the constitution.
You are right, we have freedom of religion but not from religion. Like it or not, this country was founded by men, who (in theory) lived their lives according to Judeo-Christian principles, thus, we have many references to God (the Judeo-Christian God of the Holy Bible).

Whether an individual "accepts" God or not is immaterial, to the extent, it does not change the historical role it has played and will continue to play in the formation of our great nation.

To put it simply, the mere recognition and acknowledgement of "God" is not antithetical to us as a nation, to the contrary, it is the continuation of what has always been our tradition and heritage since its creation.
 
Old 04-20-2012, 03:03 PM
 
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
17,823 posts, read 23,335,072 times
Reputation: 6541
Quote:
Originally Posted by phlinak View Post
You are right, we have freedom of religion but not from religion. Like it or not, this country was founded by men, who (in theory) lived their lives according to Judeo-Christian principles, thus, we have many references to God (the Judeo-Christian God of the Holy Bible).

Whether an individual "accepts" God or not is immaterial, to the extent, it does not change the historical role it has played and will continue to play in the formation of our great nation.

To put it simply, the mere recognition and acknowledgement of "God" is not antithetical to us as a nation, to the contrary, it is the continuation of what has always been our tradition and heritage since its creation.
You cannot have freedom OF religion without freedom FROM religion. If there is no freedom from religion, then freedom of religion is a lie.
 
Old 04-20-2012, 03:18 PM
 
Location: Alaska
3,146 posts, read 4,053,507 times
Reputation: 5470
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitch View Post
You cannot have freedom OF religion without freedom FROM religion. If there is no freedom from religion, then freedom of religion is a lie.
Dude/Dudette,

Unless the State is going around and forcing you to practice a particular state-sponsored religion or stopping you from practicing any religion of your choice without just cause, then your claim of a lack of freedom from religion is baseless.

You cannot and should not ban all reference to God from society and that includes government.

Just out of curiosity, why are you so "anti-God" and/or "anti-religion"?

Seriously, were you kidnapped and tortured by a religious cult or molested by a member of the clergy something?

I ask, because I sense a lot of animosity towards God and religion.
 
Old 04-20-2012, 03:29 PM
 
26,476 posts, read 36,301,263 times
Reputation: 29493
Quote:
Originally Posted by phlinak View Post
Dude/Dudette,You cannot and should not ban all reference to God from society and that includes government.
Why not?
 
Old 04-20-2012, 03:46 PM
 
Location: Itinerant
8,278 posts, read 6,231,537 times
Reputation: 6681
Quote:
Originally Posted by phlinak View Post
Dude/Dudette,

Unless the State is going around and forcing you to practice a particular state-sponsored religion or stopping you from practicing any religion of your choice without just cause, then your claim of a lack of freedom from religion is baseless.

You cannot and should not ban all reference to God from society and that includes government.

Just out of curiosity, why are you so "anti-God" and/or "anti-religion"?

Seriously, were you kidnapped and tortured by a religious cult or molested by a member of the clergy something?

I ask, because I sense a lot of animosity towards God and religion.
I don't see Glitches response as being particularly aggressive against religion (or to be frank, aggressive at all for Glitch), he's merely stating the point that you cannot have freedom of religion, without also providing freedom from religion. For instance if you allow one religion to coerce the followers of another religion into following the coercing religions doctrine and dogma through threat of force (either socially, or physically) then that is against the spirit of freedom of religion, because it does not protect the coerced group from the actions of that coercing religion. In such an instance the coerced group must have some form of protection by law. I'd also like to point out that "god" is not synonymous with religion, religion is a cultural construct of a collective of believers in particular aspects of the worship of a deity, the constraints it places on people may or may not reflect the beliefs of the followers or the religious doctrine.

As far as the section I've highlighted, society and government are not the same. Society does not depend on formal government, formal government does however depend on society. However to my point, the founders made it very clear that the Federal Government was a secular government, you cannot keep religion out of people (that would violate their freedom of religion), but you can most certainly keep religion out of government. While it would be against the spirit of freedom of religion to eliminate any reference to any religious belief (or lack thereof) in SOCIETY, it is not against the spirit of freedom of religion to eliminate all reference to any religious belief in GOVERNMENT, since religion has no place in a secular government by definition.
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