I guess its official.... (Anchorage, Fairbanks: apartment, credit card, student loan)

[Metlakatla]

Um..was your post meant ironically? There are some parts of the country where conditions are exactly that.

[Captain Crunch]

mind wanders like an untethered goat...

now...this certainly fits two regular posters here....

[LittleJazzyP]

Originally Posted by Metlakatla

Um..was your post meant ironically? There are some parts of the country where conditions are exactly that.

If you mean mine, no, it was not ironic at all. I think efficiency is wonderful, until it starts to make people's efforts obsolete.

The more I look around, the more I think that we need to scale back, not on ideas or innovation, but on production; not how much is done, but the way it is done. Small operations are squeezed out of the market every day by monolithic corporations that pay nothing in taxes, hire none of our workers.

I still don't know how I think this should happen, but more and more, I think that small is good. Small companies that put out an excellent product and take care of their employees, because the employees take care of them. Things done on a human scale.

I think I have expressed myself poorly.

[gobrien]

Originally Posted by LittleJazzyP

If you mean mine, no, it was not ironic at all. I think efficiency is wonderful, until it starts to make people's efforts obsolete.

The more I look around, the more I think that we need to scale back, not on ideas or innovation, but on production; not how much is done, but the way it is done. Small operations are squeezed out of the market every day by monolithic corporations that pay nothing in taxes, hire none of our workers.

I still don't know how I think this should happen, but more and more, I think that small is good. Small companies that put out an excellent product and take care of their employees, because the employees take care of them. Things done on a human scale.

I think I have expressed myself poorly.

I don't think you have expressed yourself poorly at all. Isn't this exactly why Walmart and other big box retailers are hated so much? They have decimated small, home town businesses due to their buying power.

[NomadicBear]

Originally Posted by LittleJazzyP

I've had a disturbing thought lately. We have become so efficient that the trend is, always, to make a profit with fewer workers, simply because those workers are not needed. There will always be businesses that require warm bodies, but increasingly, there are industries where machines and technology have decreased the need for human labor.

I am not getting all paranoid about machines developing self-awareness and taking over, but what if something even worse is happening: what if there are simply not enough jobs (and by "job," I mean a full-time occupation that pays the bills) to go around?

It might be a crazy idea, but my mind wanders like an untethered goat sometimes, especially in the evening, and it just makes me wonder: what if our exploding population leads, not to people we cannot feed, but people with whom we cannot provide meaningful work and a paycheck to go with it?

It was always promised that technological advances in the production of goods and services would benefit mankind in the way of reduced workloads, especially of the strenuous variety, and nurture an environment where the masses enjoyed a much less stressful existence, rather than continue to endure the torturous grind of days gone by. What wasn't discussed was the fact that, in reality, the advances in productivity would translate directly into windfall profits for a select few at the expense of mankind, and that the free time availed to the masses would be fraught with worry and sadness as they struggled to understand how they would eat and shelter themselves in the new economy.

[Metlakatla]

I guess what I was trying to say is that we've already reached a point where there aren't enough jobs to go around.

[Kashta]

I know I can't find a job...5 years of staying at home to raise my boys was do-able at the time, but just as I was getting ready to start looking to go back into work, the recession hit. I spent about half a year hitting everything I could find in the papers, as well as doing walk-ins to businesses. There was just no market for the skills I had (not even fast food), when I'd been out of the work force for so long. It was very demoralizing, and eventually I just stopped looking.

Now I raise goats and pigs and a cow, hehe. It's something to do, contributes to the family, and I don't have to pay taxes on the stuff I produce from it. Luckily my husband still has a job (though his wages have been heavily cut several times over the past few years), so far.

Anyway, tis an example. Not only lazy people can't find jobs. Met's comment about the market demand just not being there is spot on. No one's starting any new businesses (other than banks and chains) in the smallish community I live in...several of the established businesses have gone belly up. A person would have to have some seriously applicable and necessary skills to succeed in a new business venture around here.

Oh, and -

Originally Posted by LittleJazzyP

I've had a disturbing thought lately. We have become so efficient that the trend is, always, to make a profit with fewer workers, simply because those workers are not needed. There will always be businesses that require warm bodies, but increasingly, there are industries where machines and technology have decreased the need for human labor.

I am not getting all paranoid about machines developing self-awareness and taking over, but what if something even worse is happening: what if there are simply not enough jobs (and by "job," I mean a full-time occupation that pays the bills) to go around?

This very much reminded me of a site I found several years ago. You've heard of Marshall Brain, the how stuff works guy? Well he saw what you pointed out and wrote a lot about it, back in 2003. Very interesting stuff, here's the link to his first of three articles on it. And when you see 'robots', don't scoff...it could as easily be termed 'automation', and we would all be nodding our heads in bemused agreement. But robots bring about visions of action movies with Will Smith, rather than self-checkout lines or the very efficient methods of shipping that Amazon has put into play.

His short(ish) novel, Manna, is also on that site, and it's very very believable (at least up through chapter 4...the rest sounds nice and fantastical but I don't ever see anything like that happening in our country). And if you want, you can check out the Robotic Nation Evidence link, where he keeps it pretty updated with the progression of automation/robotic advances and uses in the marketplace.

I know it's off topic, but he makes a lot of sense, and it is directly related to what you said there, and is worth at least a passing awareness of it.

...but my mind wanders like an untethered goat sometimes...

Watch out for bears I hear they eat goats.

[Alaskapat528]

[quote=gobrien;24236464]So have I but I'm not going to lump a large group of people as having an entitlement attitude. I've heard the market for jobs was so pathetic in some areas that even fast food jobs were hard to find. Some people are scared and frustrated by their inability to find jobs. Maybe some of the Occupiers are losers but not all. Nor does that mean their frustration with a system that gives corporate welfare without stigma isn't a valid problem. Why are we allowing tax breaks to large companies? Why is Nascar federally funded? Why do corporations get bailed out while the average working stiff gets foreclosed upon? We don't live in that type of economy up here in Alaska. Not yet, anyway.[/QU



As for Occupiers, I was raised where if I thought there was an injustice I don't go out and ruin it for other people. What they did to the parks and areas they "occupied' was disgraceful. Not to mention the thousands of man/hrs the police had to waste on them. This was done by all of those spoiled losers. We won't even get into the riots and looting done by the hard core ones. The entitlement attitude comes in with the reasons most of them are there. They want their college paid for and high paying jobs without having to work for them. There are millions of people that go to work and pay taxes everyday who didn't get to go to college and have worked since they were 16. Why should these people have to pay for it?

One question I have to ask, why are you so fixated on NASCAR? I don't know how much it gives to Nascar, but I am pretty sure it was far less then what was given to corporations, like the billions given to ACORN before many of them went to jail. I don't see you as fixated about that.

As for what the corporations get, it is simple, politicians are corrupt and they give breaks to companies that line their pockets. For example, GE hasn't paid a penny in taxes in years thanks to the CEO Immelt's 'bestest buddy Barry.' The more power the government grabs the more things like this is going to happen, that's why some of us are for smaller government.

[LittleJazzyP]

Originally Posted by Metlakatla

I guess what I was trying to say is that we've already reached a point where there aren't enough jobs to go around.

Gotcha. I don't think it's quite a universal condition yet - there are little pockets of prosperity where there enough jobs for all - but they're pretty rare.

[Kashta]

Originally Posted by Alaskapat528

As for Occupiers, I was raised where if I thought there was an injustice I don't go out and ruin it for other people. What they did to the parks and areas they "occupied' was disgraceful. Not to mention the thousands of man/hrs the police had to waste on them. This was done by all of those spoiled losers. We won't even get into the riots and looting done by the hard core ones. The entitlement attitude comes in with the reasons most of them are there. They want their college paid for and high paying jobs without having to work for them. There are millions of people that go to work and pay taxes everyday who didn't get to go to college and have worked since they were 16. Why should these people have to pay for it?

One question I have to ask, why are you so fixated on NASCAR? I don't know how much it gives to Nascar, but I am pretty sure it was far less then what was given to corporations, like the billions given to ACORN before many of them went to jail. I don't see you as fixated about that.

As for what the corporations get, it is simple, politicians are corrupt and they give breaks to companies that line their pockets. For example, GE hasn't paid a penny in taxes in years thanks to the CEO Immelt's 'bestest buddy Barry.' The more power the government grabs the more things like this is going to happen, that's why some of us are for smaller government.

I don't think gobrien was saying anything you weren't saying, there...other than not every occupier is automatically wanting to have entitlements bestowed upon them. I've seen videos where occupiers were focused on investigating the fraudulent practices of certain banks involved in the housing crisis (which, yes, is directly tied to government influence)...that doesn't seem very entitle-y. I don't think that student loans should be exempt from bankruptcy, either, especially not when education has been promoted and subsidized by our government. Since our government (theoretically representing We the People) has skewed reality in order to push more people into seeking higher education at higher costs, then those people shouldn't be penalized forever for, in effect, falling for a con. Yes they share some culpability but not all of it.

And some of the trash left behind was due to police action, rather than the protesters themselves. Such as the Occupy LA incident last December. Just something to think about. Not everyone is the stereotype that they're portrayed as.