Warming up your car (Fairbanks, Eagle: buying, quality of life, live in)

[Arcticthaw]

Originally Posted by mal_flisk

I grew up with "The Way Things Work" in 2 volumes in my house as a kid.

I saw a volume of that one time. Indispenible around a home, especially in the woods or at the cabin.

[warptman]

Thank you PBS

[mal_flisk]

I liked "Connections" too.

[RayinAK]

Originally Posted by mal_flisk

Just trying to refute some bad stuff partner. It gets a little deep in here sometimes

You are correct, of course. All you have to do to prove your point is to ask a small aircraft pilot if he starts the motor and flies away without warming the motor first. Also, if one reads the instructions on a new car's owner's manual, one will see that the manufacturer recommends that the motor be warmed to normal temperature conditions before driving the car.

In places where it often gets very cold (Fairbanks for example), even 5W-30 pours out the can as heavy as STP oil treatment. Just imagine the strain that puts on the crankshaft bearings and the valve stems alone. The problem is that there are lots of people on the Internet telling others that there is no need to warm the engine before driving, and I bet that most of those don't live where it gets real cold.

[Rance]

And I'll bet most of them have no clue as to how an engine works on the inside. Hot or cold.

[User 2]

Originally Posted by mal_flisk

My mechanics tell me.....

The dated information you offer is very good, or was very good advice for the kinds of vehicles people used to drive 20 or so years ago.

Today's modern engines have major differences from the vehicles one used to drive or maintain, to list just a couple, fuel injection as opposed to carburators with manual chokes, oil viscosity is only a concern if you do not use an oil with a viscosity rating recommended for cold temperatures.

In a modern automobile engine today, lubrication is complete within just a few seconds unless you have some component that is malfunctioning.

The ineffeciencies of unburned fuel in the cylinder because of internal temperatures are temperatures not reached by plugging in a vehicle, typically those higher temps are not reached until the engine is under a load, modern engines, after an extended period of time at idle, the temp at the spark plug actually gets cooler as time goes on.

With a modern diesel engine it's even more pronounced.

As the US EPA found after testing school buses, and what the manufacturers recommend...

Anti-idling | Clean School Bus USA | US EPA

Caterpillar Inc. cautions drivers to "... Avoid excess idling. If the vehicle is parked for more than five minutes, stop the engine. Excessive idling can cause carbon buildup and/or excessive idling can cause the engine to slobber. This is harmful to the engine."

IC Corporation's engine manual states that "...Excessive idling reduces fuel economy, and may decrease oil life."

Cummins Inc. suggests idling for only three to five minutes before operating with a load.

Idling Myths

Myth: It's important to warm up the engine with a long idle period, especially in cold weather.

Fact: With today's school bus engines, bus and engine manufacturers routinely suggest a warm up time of less than five minutes. In fact, running an engine at low speed (idling) causes significantly more wear on internal parts compared to driving at regular speeds.

Myth: It's better for an engine to run at low speed (idling) than to run at regular speeds.

Fact: Running an engine at low speed causes twice the wear on internal parts compared to driving at regular speeds.


Myth: It’s better to just leave the engine idling because a "cold start" produces more pollution.


Fact: A recent EPA study found that the emission pulse measured after the school bus is restarted contains less carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxides, and other pollutants than if the school bus idled continuously over a 10-minute period. The analysis indicated that continuous idling for more than three minutes emitted more fine particle (soot) emissions than at restart.

More?

Q. There is a standing argument in my house that all cars should be warmed up a minimum of at least three to five minutes in winter. Right or wrong? -- J.M. Itasca

A. There will be more such arguments now that remote starting devices for cars are becoming more popular. They allow a car's interior to be warmer in winter and cooler in the summer because the heater and air conditioner can be activated before a driver gets in the vehicle. On the other hand, the best way to warm up a car is to let it idle for about 30 seconds after starting it and then driving moderately for several miles. That allows engine oil and other lubricants to work more effectively. Use a remote starter to let a car engine idle for three to five minutes and you're wasting a fair amount of gasoline because you're letting a stone cold engine idle - - not to mention adding to air pollution. Chicago Sun Times.

Letting car warm up too long a waste of gas | Chicago Sun-Times | Find Articles at BNET.com

Conservation tip: Idle engines are the devil’s tools
by Bret Sarnquist

. A quick dig proved two things: first, that idling your engine is wasteful; second, that warming up your car is unnecessary, even counterproductive.

Energy Solutions Alberta adds another suggestion: never let your car warm up more than thirty seconds before you start driving.

The EPA agrees, and states that longer idling actually causes engine damage. “To avoid unnecessary engine wear and to reduce exhaust emissions do not let your vehicle stand and warm up. Be ready to drive off immediately after starting your vehicle.”

So idling is bad, and warming up your car unnecessary. But many people continue to warm up their cars anyway for another reason: interior temperature. Though it may pollute and be hard on your car, warming a car up insures that the car is toasty inside when it comes time to drive. Hence the proliferation of remote starters in the northern climes.

Conservation tip: Idle engines are the devil's tools | | TerraPass: Fight global warming, promote alternative energy

Car Talk with Tom and Ray

Ray: It is, however, still completely unnecessary to let your car sit and warm up. Engines warm up fastest when they're driven. So, as long as the engine starts and keeps running when you put it in gear, you're good to go. Just drive it gently for the first few minutes (don't jump right on the highway and go 65), and you'll warm it up quickly and efficiently.

Tom: By letting it run, you're just wasting gasoline and polluting the neighborhood.

Car Talk

You like Science?

The Canadian Office of Energy Efficiency agrees that the best way to warm up your engine is to drive it. Even if the outside temperature is -20°C, they recommend that you idle the engine for only 15-30 seconds before you pull out onto the road.

The Canadian Office of Energy Efficiency crunched the numbers for the hypothetical situation of each Canadian driver idling their engine for 5 minutes fewer each day. Over a year, that reduced idling would save Canadian drivers C$646 million, and stop 1.6 million tonnes of greenhouse gases from escaping into the atmosphere.

When you idle a car, you get zero miles per gallon, lots of pollution, and a hole in your wallet.

Warm up the car by idling - Great Moments in Science - The Lab

Popular Mechanics January 2007

A lot of traditional automotive wisdom just doesn't hold up.

DAD SAID: "Let the engine idle to warm up on cold days."
BUT: Idling just wears the engine without budging the odo. Les Ryder, chief powertrain engineer at Ford, says, "Engines run best at their design temperature." To get there sooner, start by driving at moderate speeds. Your engine will be okay: Modern oils flow fine in cold weather.

Your Dad Was Wrong - Popular Mechanics

Idling: Myths Versus Reality

Ask Canadian motorists why they idle their vehicles, and you'll likely get a simple answer: to warm up the engine before they drive away. It's one of the most commonly held myths in Canada about driving.

Contrary to popular belief, idling isn't an effective way to warm up your vehicle, even in cold weather. The best way to warm it up is to drive it. In fact, with today's engines, you need no more than 30 seconds of idling on winter days before you start to drive.

The notion that idling is good for your vehicle is passé – in fact, it hasn't been the right thing to do since the advent of electronic engines. The truth is that excessive idling can damage the engine.

The reason? An idling engine isn't operating at its peak temperature, which means that fuel doesn't undergo complete combustion. This leaves fuel residues that can condense on cylinder walls, where they can contaminate oil and damage parts of the engine. For example, fuel residues are often deposited on spark plugs. As you spend more time idling, the average temperature of the spark plug drops. This makes the plug get dirty more quickly, which can increase fuel consumption by 4 to 5 percent. Excessive idling also lets water condense in the vehicle's exhaust. This can lead to corrosion and reduce the life of the exhaust system.

Idling: Myths Versus Reality



Seems I'm not the only one who suggests starting a car, letting it run for a minute or two at most, and then driving off.

Want more?

Driving & Driving Test Tips: Start & drive off?

Even on a subzero cold start, there's no reason to wait more than a minute or so before driving away.

Paul Brand: Best way to warm up the car?

Today's automobile manufacturers recommend driving off right away and urge that drivers wait no more than 30 seconds to begin driving, even on the coldest days.

Don't let the car engine idle!

http://www.airwatchnorthwest.org/wa/...ions_Recap.pdf

60 to 100 seconds is usually enough time to allow your engine to idle. A cold engine will warm up faster when the vehicle is being driven than when left to idle for long periods of time.

There's a whole lot more, but I figure you could find it as easy as I can show it to you.

Originally Posted by mal_flisk

I cannot sit idly by and watch someone denigrate normal practice and common sense as bad habits.

Perhaps you'd write to each of these places and give them your thoughts.
.
..

Knowing-it-all doesn't seem to be the question.

Hearing something one may not wish to agree with sounds a bit more likely.
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..

[rotorhead]

Yep, that oil gets pretty sludgy at twenty below.

It took half a day sitting inside for it to thaw out after making the trip home from Whitehorse at twenty below.

My Dodge/Cummins is able to start unassisted at those temps, but it's definately not happy doing it. When I plan on using the truck I plug it in anytime the temp drops below about twenty above or so. Not only does it start easier, but the heater provides usable warmth much more quickly as well. Plugging in is guilt-free here in our neck of the woods as our power is 100% hydro, but it's not cheap power either. The block heater takes 6 amps, so it's not something you want to leave plugged in all the time if you're not using it.

At idle the truck never will get up to operating temp in colder weather, it takes a moderate load. As far as idling warm-up time, I personally rarely run it over ten to fifteen minutes, and thats mostly to help clear the windows since it's parked outside. Even with a diesels miserly fuel consumption at idle, it adds up at $3.95 / gallon.

BTW, comparisons between modern automobile engines and piston aircraft engines are completely invalid. Airplane engines need extended warmups mainly because they're stone-age primitive compared to even the most basic car engine. The average Lycoming or Continental bolted on the front of a Cessna/Piper/Whatever have barely changed at all from their 1930's technology while auto engines are vastly more sophisticated than even the engines of twenty years ago.

[Rance]

I'm still plugging in at 20 and warming up 15 to 20 minutes. Well...until I get the doors and windows in my garage and get the heat system going. You take off down the road scraping the windsheild just so you can see until the defrost starts putting out, run off into the ditch or worse...warm up time will have seemed a little more important. Living in Florida or Arizona that would not be an issue. Living here...

[mal_flisk]

I scraped my windshield this morning and couldn't see from the frost INSIDE the windows from the previous evening. Green weenie helps , but nothing beats a warm defroster in a 1984 Eagle Summit.

[Rance]

Back in 79 when I lived in Wrangell...many folks there used to leave one of those infared heat lamps plugged in inside their vehicle. The heat lamp like the farmers used in their chicken coops and pig pens back in MN. Seemed to do ok as far as keeping the inside warm and windows thawed. May have been cheaper electric bills back then also. Of course it never got real cold when I was there. But still...seemed like a good idea back then.