Reflecting on another Darwin Day (Metlakatla: motel, sick, diversity)

[Metlakatla]

You never did answer my question or my observations--Alice.

What you probably don't even know is that children in the public school system are exposed to religion all the time...maybe not your version, but it's there in history and philosophy classes. Nothing wrong with that; it played a big part in Western civilization.

Coffehouse...creationism (or fundamentalism) as literal "truth" gained prominence in the 1920's in the rural American south. The times were moving so quickly then and it was, in a way, a response to that.

[coffeehound]

Originally Posted by Alice2

No, I'm not pushing an agenda, I just don't think the subject of religion should be sanitized clear out of the educational system as if children could be tainted by being exposed to the topic. People having religion shoved down their throats have made this a rather knee-jerk type reaction in people, and Ithink it is a shame for kids to not have this dimension of human existence presented to them so that they may ponder it themselves as they are growing up.

Yeah, I actually kind of agree with that. I'd rather my kids attend a real religious school than learn to venerate all the standard secular-humanist PS saints, lol. St. MLK, anyone?

[User 2]

Originally Posted by Alice2

The other part of your post I can not respond to tonite, but will let you know if I can look into it and verify it -- I once had, and think I still do (in a box not here in my possession) a copy of Darwin's Origin of the Species and the Descent of Man all in one volume, and I believe it was in there I first read that he in fact believed in God.

It's not a matter if you or anyone else want's to believe in God, or Yahweh, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

That's not the issue, the issue is whether science should take a backseat to the imposition of any certain singularly founded religious beliefs.

The answer is no.

It's fine to allow the exploration of various tenets of every belief system within the educational system.

It's patently wrong to assume we should 'teach' God.

As to Darwin, here's his words:

“The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us; and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic”

I just finished a very recent new biography, and there was no question that Darwin had thoroughly renounced all of what belief was ever existant in his childhood.

Darwin cannot be held up as some 'believer' in God.

And again, attempting to do so is contemptible, ....even to his own children.

They, of course, were exposed to such nonsense soon after Darwin's death.
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[Alice2]

I don't think science should take a backseat to religion. I was putting forth an argument different from the topic, I guess, but I figured it was obvious enough that it was okay. Simply that religion shouldn't be a taboo subject for classroom discussion. Any and all religions, not even excluding Christianity.

It has gotten so children are not even allowed to sing Christmas carols at school anymore. The only holiday allowed anymore seems to be Halloween.

The knee-jerk reaction to religion has gone way too far in the other direction. I should probably just start this as a different topic.

Maybe you're right about Darwin, but somewhere along the way I believe my recollection is correct. I'm curious about it now so will probably look into it.

[coffeehound]

Originally Posted by Metlakatla

Coffehouse...creationism (or fundamentalism) as literal "truth" gained prominence in the 1920's in the rural American south. The times were moving so quickly then and it was, in a way, a response to that.

yeah, that makes sense. I imagine the rural poor were probably quite threatened by the pace of social change... and here we've been in another period of swirling social change where the old-fashioned traditionalists come out behind yet again. I guess I just don't fault them that much for reacting in weird ways.

It's funny, I attended UAF with a couple of kids who literally thought evolution meant "people came from apes." Don't know where THEY were during high school. Smoking in the boys' room, I imagine.

Felt kind of sorry for the biology prof who had to spend decades acquiring enough education to teach basic, basic evolutionary biology to eighteen-year-olds, though.

[User 2]

Originally Posted by coffeehound

creeping lefty secularism?

Why or how do you justify characterizing secularism as being 'lefty'?

....let alone creepy?

You think secularist policies originated in some kind of leftist margin of the history of Democratic policy debate?

It's little wonder people have little idea what the labels they toss around might really mean, no one bothers to think if they use the proper terminology to describe what they're talking about.

There's an old saying:

"Words are convenient, ...where ideas fail."

Jeebus.....

As non-specific and incoherent as this little ditty:

I'd rather my kids attend a real religious school than learn to venerate all the standard secular-humanist PS saints, lol. St. MLK, anyone?

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[coffeehound]

Originally Posted by User 2

Why or how do you justify characterizing secularism as being 'lefty'?

....let alone creepy?

You think secularist policies originated in some kind of leftist margin of the history of Democratic policy debate?

It's little wonder people have little idea what the labels they toss around might really mean, no one bothers to think if they use the proper terminology to describe what they're talking about.

There's an old saying:

"Words are convenient, ...where ideas fail."

Jeebus.....

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Nah, I'm an atheist and am actually very comfortable with secularism. Voted against Bush twice on the grounds that the dude struck me as being a theocrat. I don't dig theocracy.

But yes, there is a substantially leftist (and weirdly religious!) flavor to our current secularism. We've just substituted "diversity" for piety and "tolerance" for "devotion." Call me unimpressed with the results thus far.

I'd rather my kids be suffused with an authentic, time-tested religion (and learn to take it with a big grain of salt like most grownups do) than be castigated for, say, pointing out that MLK plagiarized his dissertation. Just for instance.

Heresy!

[Metlakatla]

Simply that religion shouldn't be a taboo subject for classroom discussion. Any and all religions, not even excluding Christianity.

It isn't. It's discussed all the time in history, philosophy, and literature classes.

The only holiday allowed anymore seems to be Halloween.

Actually, most public schools are moving away from Halloween celebrations due to the efforts of wingnuts to mark it as some kind of celebration of Satan's birthday.

I imagine the rural poor were probably quite threatened by the pace of social change.

Not only that, coffeehouse, but a lot of them were just attaining marginal literacy, and the rise of the Baptist church took extreme advantage of that.

I don't know what's gone on with high schools in the past few years...kids are graduating without even being able to actually read at an adult level.

[User 2]

Originally Posted by coffeehound

Call me unimpressed

I'm much more likely to call you overly 'impressed'.

I'd more properly call your rhetoric distinctly unimpressive.

You appear to echo many unsupported and baseless demagogic doctrines with little care as to their inherent conflicts within.

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[coffeehound]

Originally Posted by User 2

I'm much more likely to call you overly 'impressed'.

I'd more properly call your rhetoric distinctly unimpressive.

You appear to echo many unsupported and baseless demagogic doctrines with little care as to their inherent conflicts within.

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Um, okay? Far as I'm concerned, life is a contradictory and difficult business sometimes.

You can be impressed or not, just as you please.