For warptman (Anchorage, Fairbanks, Kenai: environment, work, medical)

[warptman]

Lord, save me from your followers.

[Xa'at]

Originally Posted by warptman

Lord, save me from your followers.

Oh my, I think we scared him off, Warpt...

[Jeff Emler]

Originally Posted by Xa'at

Quite unfortunately, it's not a perception. Historically, it's a truth. Is it that way now? I don't know. But I do know that "offering the word" is not what missionaries have traditionally done.

Yes, as I said in my post there was plenty of abuse. As for what it has become. You could probably look right in your own back yard. The Moravian Church (according to Floyd Johnson) esablished a mission in Bethel Alaska. In the 1800's. He describes the Church very favorably.

I did a google on the Moravian Church and it seems like a Church well grounded in fundamental Christian principles.

I also think that a few bad examples of early missionary work has, perhaps given the rest a bad name. This is common among us humans. We tend to look at the bad and make generalizations. I'm willing to bet that most Christian missions were quite benign and in many cases beneficial.

I have no wish to argue religion with you, I only put to you the following- as two adults have a reasoned discussion.

Same here.

Do you then believe that a person who is fundamentally good- is honest and giving and compassionate and stands up for all that is right in the world, but who does not believe in Christ cannot possibly go to Heaven?

According to the Bible that is correct. The Bible is very clear about it. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Nothing we can do in terms of actions will make us good enough to enter Heaven.

The GOOD NEWS is.........................................you don't have to.

Salvation is a gift, pure and simple. It's yours for the taking....FREE....no strings.

Jesus did not mince words. "I am the truth and the light. No one enters the Kingdom of God except by me."

This is a stumbling block for many people. How can something so priceless be free? That's exactly why it is free....it's priceless.

Sin has condemned you to spiritual death. But Jesus took that sin upon himself, and died on a cross to erase that sin so that you can go to live with your Heavenly Father forever.

I've always worked under the assumption that if there is a god up there, and believing in her is requisite for entrance into paradise, then she would provide me with concrete proof that she exists,

How much proof do you need? It's all around you.

because if she is the type of person that Christians describe, then she would still love me. But then, it wouldn't be faith, would it...?

God does love you...very much in fact. He/she has FAITH in YOU. He has so much faith and love that he sent his son, who he loved with all his heart; and allowed him to be tortured and put to death. Jesus also died a spiritual death. He experienced separation from God. Jesus' death was total and it had to be.

God doesn't have to prove his existence to me beyond what I already see. If you want a miracle, look out your window at the fantastic view I imagine you have there in alaska. Go out and look at the aurora borealis if you want to see a miracle.

Yes, these things have scientific explanations, but it was the hand of God that wrought them.

I don't want to sound preachy, but you did ask. I am obligated to try to help. I am also obligated to shut up if rejected.

Ask yourself a question. If living a good life and doing good things is the ticket to heaven how is it quantitated? In other words...how many good things must I do? Are some good things better than others? Is it kind of like a point system? If I give money to a poor man do I get 5 points? If I build a new orphanage to I get a hundred points? What is a 'good' life? Am I good if I treat my brother well? How about if I kill an enemy? If I live a bad life, but give generously will the two cancel each other out? What then? What if I'm neither good or bad? Do I go to heaven, hell or somewhere in between?

Do you see where this takes us? It is IMPOSSIBLE to be 'good enough' to enter Heaven. None of can get there by being 'good'. We must accept the gift of salvation.

[warptman]

Thats funny, this was about a fishing trip to the Bethel area, now it is a religious thread. Thank God I can catch all these fishes.

[Jeff Emler]

Originally Posted by warptman

Thats funny, this was about a fishing trip to the Bethel area, now it is a religious thread. Thank God I can catch all these fishes.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

Funny how things work out?

Maybe not.....

Jesus' disciples were mostly fisherman. Jesus said to them, "come with me and I will make you fishers of men."

It seems Jesus had a preference for fishermen. He must have seen something in them. He was, after all, a working man himself (carpenter).

[warptman]

Give a man a fish and he has food for a day

Teach a man to fish and you a liar and a drunkard

[Xa'at]

First off- I'm sorry for this. I hope you don't think poorly of me.

Originally Posted by Jeff Emler

According to the Bible that is correct. The Bible is very clear about it. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Nothing we can do in terms of actions will make us good enough to enter Heaven.

The GOOD NEWS is.........................................you don't have to.

Salvation is a gift, pure and simple. It's yours for the taking....FREE....no strings.

Jesus did not mince words. "I am the truth and the light. No one enters the Kingdom of God except by me."

This is a stumbling block for many people. How can something so priceless be free? That's exactly why it is free....it's priceless.

Sin has condemned you to spiritual death. But Jesus took that sin upon himself, and died on a cross to erase that sin so that you can go to live with your Heavenly Father forever.



How much proof do you need? It's all around you.



God does love you...very much in fact. He/she has FAITH in YOU. He has so much faith and love that he sent his son, who he loved with all his heart; and allowed him to be tortured and put to death. Jesus also died a spiritual death. He experienced separation from God. Jesus' death was total and it had to be.

God doesn't have to prove his existence to me beyond what I already see. If you want a miracle, look out your window at the fantastic view I imagine you have there in alaska. Go out and look at the aurora borealis if you want to see a miracle.

Yes, these things have scientific explanations, but it was the hand of God that wrought them.

I don't want to sound preachy, but you did ask. I am obligated to try to help. I am also obligated to shut up if rejected.

Ask yourself a question. If living a good life and doing good things is the ticket to heaven how is it quantitated? In other words...how many good things must I do? Are some good things better than others? Is it kind of like a point system? If I give money to a poor man do I get 5 points? If I build a new orphanage to I get a hundred points? What is a 'good' life? Am I good if I treat my brother well? How about if I kill an enemy? If I live a bad life, but give generously will the two cancel each other out? What then? What if I'm neither good or bad? Do I go to heaven, hell or somewhere in between?

Do you see where this takes us? It is IMPOSSIBLE to be 'good enough' to enter Heaven. None of can get there by being 'good'. We must accept the gift of salvation.

Very well then...
I am obligated to inform you that are you are wasting your time preaching something that isn't even true.

That sounds pretty rude, right? That's how you came off, and I bet you didn't even realize it.

I am quite certain that there will never be a time when everyone agrees with each other, and that is exactly how I like it. It would be pretty boring if life was like that.
I am strong in my belief that I am a good person that does good things, and if that isn't enough to get me into "heaven" then it isn't good enough for anyone else either. But I refuse to espouse the dogma that has driven the slaughter of millions of people, that causes people to this day to hate others. Having been a victim of a religious hate crime myself, I have no interest in taking part in anything to that end.

Now, that that's out of the way, may the conversation return to Bethel, and of course... fish.

[Jeff Emler]

Originally Posted by Xa'at

First off- I'm sorry for this. I hope you don't think poorly of me.

Why would I think that?

Very well then...
I am obligated to inform you that are you are wasting your time preaching something that isn't even true.

Maybe not wasting my time....I'm sure you are not the only person reading this thread.

That sounds pretty rude, right?

No, not exactly rude. It's fairly common. I remember feeling the same way at times in my life. When we are witnessed to it is like sown seed. Some seed falls on fertile ground and it grows. Some seed falls on dry, hard ground, and it fails to germinate.

That's how you came off, and I bet you didn't even realize it.

Correct. I did not realize it. When I witness I do it as humbly as I can. I go to a lot of effort not to come across as judgmental. Sometimes I encounter someone who takes offense. I have no control over that.

I am quite certain that there will never be a time when everyone agrees with each other, and that is exactly how I like it. It would be pretty boring if life was like that.

I'm not asking you to agree with me. I'm not asking you for anything at all. You asked a question and I tried to answer it.

I am strong in my belief that I am a good person that does good things, and if that isn't enough to get me into "heaven" then it isn't good enough for anyone else either.

I'm sure you are a good person. Most of us are good people. My question still stands, however. How good must one be to be acceptable to God; who is perfect?

But I refuse to espouse the dogma that has driven the slaughter of millions of people, that causes people to this day to hate others.

You make assumptions about God based on what you see in people. People will always do bad things because of sin. It is a mistake to judge God based on the actions of people.

Having been a victim of a religious hate crime myself, I have no interest in taking part in anything to that end.

Peace comes from God, not from people. Turn your back on those who persecuted you if you are unable to forgive, but do not turn your back on God.

Remember that we forgive not for the sake of others, but for our own. Living with resentment in our hearts only hurts us. It does not hurt the object of our resentment. This is why Jesus commanded us to love our enemies, to forgive others; and to turn the other cheek. He didn't tell us to do those things for the benefit of others. He wants us to do those things for OUR benefit. It is unhealthy to live with anger, hate, jealousy and resentment in our heart. Jesus wants us to be free of those negative feelings.

I hope that wasn't rude.

Now, that that's out of the way, may the conversation return to Bethel, and of course... fish.

By all means yes.

[Jeff Emler]

Originally Posted by warptman

Give a man a fish and he has food for a day

Teach a man to fish and you a liar and a drunkard

Close but no ceegar there warptman...

"Give a man a fish and he eats for a day."

"Teach a man to fish and he sits in a boat and drinks beer all day."

George Carlin

I like this one ...

"In ancient Rome the Romans had a designated area in the Coliseum for the Emporer called the Caesarian section."

or....

"I was at a friend's house the other day and I was hungry. My friend told me to go into the kitchen and make myself a sandwich. How odd I thought...If I can make myself a sandwich I can make myself anything. Why not a horny, 18 year old billionaire?"

[Blueberry]

Jeff,

I lived in Bethel for seven years and left when my daughter was 11. Your daughter's experience will largely depend upon her temperament, interests, and how often you get away from Bethel (out enjoying the river). I just asked my daughter how exciting she thinks Bethel would be in the summertime for an 11 year old girl. Her answer: NOT! I'll try to present a little more balanced view. Please keep in mind that I loved my time in Bethel (so did my daughter), but Bethel is the kind of place you will either love or hate, and the opinions run very high! I'm not going to romanticize it, but neither am I going to emphasize the difficulties.

The first thing that struck me is you said you wanted your daughter to experience the beauty of Alaska. Well, honestly, you're not going to find it in Bethel proper, but you will see some if you manage to get out on the river. There are stories of new teachers who get off the plane, take a look around Bethel, and get back on the plane to head back home. Bethel is not home to green grass, tall trees, and white picket fences. It's homes are built on sand pads, and it's very dirty and dusty (and muddy during the rainy season, which can last all summer long!). Bethel isn't teeming with viewable wildlife either; you're not going to see moose, bears, or caribou traipsing through town; bald eagles don't fly overhead, either. (You're also probably not going to see any of those critters if you go on the river.) Fishing can be done off the seawall (which isn't a pretty place), but if you want the quality experience and the numbers of fish shown in Warptman's photos, you're going to need to make friends with a boat owner. While tundra walks can be very rewarding, they can also be very painful! The tundra is teeming with all kinds of nasty, biting insects. (Give me mosquitoes any day!!!)

However, what Bethel is lacking in physical beauty is more than made up in the friendliness of the people. Although I don't think Bethel is as friendly a place now as when I first moved there, it's still hard to beat. While there is a Native/non-Native divide, it's not nearly as big as it was 20-30 years ago. There are definitely some racial tensions; you'll be sure to see them if you work at the hospital. By and large, though, the native peoples are very friendly in Bethel. That's what really impressed me when we were checking out the place before we moved there.

If you are desiring the picture postcard Alaska and all the wonderful outdoor experiences, your best bet would be to spend your time somewhere other than Bethel. (I'd suggest the Kenai Peninsula for the sheer diversity of opportunities available to you there.) A place like either the Kenai or Anchorage will give you activities galore for your daughter, and will also enable you to explore many habitats on your days off. You'll have the wonders of all that gorgeous scenery Rance is always showing off, plus you'll have your pick of fishing, clamming, berry picking, glacier & wildlife cruising, canoeing, kayaking, hiking, wildlife viewing, swimming, and LOTS of other things. (Your options in Bethel will be very limited.)

If, however, you're set on going to Bethel because of the ready availability of a short-term nursing position, your daughter isn't completely without hope. The Bethel Teen Center (and 4H) offers a wide variety of summer programs for children: soccer, archery, art, cooking, sewing, etc. However, programs run by the Teen Center are overreaching in their goals and aren't well supervised. I'm far from convinced they offer quality experiences.

Besides the Teen Center, other summer activities include Little League, a summer reading program at the library, and several Vacation Bible School programs. Kids flock to the VBS programs because, frankly, "there's nothing else to do." VBS is usually run by outside groups who view Bethel as a short-term missionary outreach. Most of the time, VBS is very chaotic because of the sheer number of children in attendance. Another thing to be aware of is that the groups are often unknown to the churches hosting VBS, and the theology of the Outside group may differ from the theology of the church hosting the program. Outside of VBS, the churches didn't have ANY summer activities for your daughter's age group when I lived in Bethel (not even Sunday School).

Your daughter will easily be able to find friends at any of the summer programs in Bethel. In fact, she can be kept very busy. You need to know though, that many people see summer as the time of year they can escape Bethel. Most Native children spend a large part of their summers at their family fish camp, so they aren't available as playmates. Many of the teachers take their children away for the summer months so they can experience life elsewhere. Other families view summer as the ideal vacation time since children are out of school, so kids are away on vacation. Bethel can be somewhat bereft of children during the summer months. The kids who remain in Bethel are often those without a stable family environment. (That's painting with a VERY broad brush; it's obviously not true of everyone.) You'd probably want to be very careful about the influences and friendships to which your daughter will be exposed.

As I said earlier, I loved my time in Bethel. I found it to be a great place to raise children. However, I was an established member of the community rather than a short-termer. My daughter's friendships and activities were fairly well set, and I was home with her on the days she found herself without a playmate. We also had a boat, so we were able to explore the river, have picnics on a beach, and go camping. I'm honestly not sure you'd have the same experience since you're not already established. Also, the people I knew without a boat weren't very happy in Bethel.

If you do decide on Bethel, I'd encourage to contact the outfitters Warptman mentioned. My favorite memories of the Bethel outdoors are of the float/rafting trips my family took. We were truly in the wilderness of Alaska, and we wouldn't see any people for days on end. On those trips, it was easy to catch a hundred fish a day with rods & reels. Fly fishing was possible at certain locations, also. As you've already mentioned, those trips are very expensive. However, it would be a unique experience, and you just might see some of those big critters up close and personal.