Heads-up to anyone in Juneau, and to anyone moving here soon... (Anchorage: work, university)

[Floyd_Davidson]

Originally Posted by RayinAK

I am not arguing that the State of AK subsidizes all sorts of businesses. But that has nothing to do with the price difference for electricity in bush Alaska when compared to the rest of Alaska.

I said nothing about it, you say you aren't arguing it, and you say it has no effect. Why bring it up?

The only questions were 1) Does the State subsidize GVEA (The answer is clearly yes! And the subsidy is clearly very large.); and 2) Does the subsidy help reduce your electric bills (and again the answer is clearly that it does).

Until now you have been denying the obvious answers to those two questions.

Originally Posted by RayinAK

Fuels is more expensive, which in turn is passed down to GVEA's customers. Also, any construction projects GVEA gets involved with brings an immediate price hike. There are two refineries in Alaska, one in the interior, and another near Anchorage, so delivering fuel to these areas does not cost as much as flying or "barging" fuel to the bush, thus the subsidy provided to bush AK by the State. This same subsidy isn't available to the rest of Alaska.

What does that have to do with our discussion? You were first denying that the State in any way has subsidized GVEA, and then that the price you pay for electricity has been affected by the State's subsidies.

There is no question that the subsidies have reduced your electric bills.

The fact that other factors also exist does not in any way change the effect of what the State has done, which is what you now appear to be claiming. Yet, no matter how much it is obfuscated, it is simply very clear that the State has subsidized your electric bill for years.

Originally Posted by RayinAK

Regardless, GVEA is a cooperative. Any breaks on electrical cost to its customers comes from GVEA instead,

Not true. Some of the breaks come from the State of Alaska.

Originally Posted by RayinAK

and for the past few years the price for electricity has gone up in proportion to the price of the fuel needed to run the power plants. The reason why I posted two links was to show you how much it costs per kilowatt/hour around here, and also to point-out to you that the Healy project has been dead for awhile.

You denied the facts.

[Floyd_Davidson]

Originally Posted by RayinAK

Why should GVEA pay for an experiment that was of no benefit to its members?

Because GVEA 1) wanted to build it, and 2) Needed the power, 3) thought it would benefit its members, and 4 were wrong.

Originally Posted by RayinAK

The reason why the State and a couple of other organizations paid for it was because it was their experiment, not a GVEA's clean-burning coal plant.

If GVEA had not been a major participant, with huge influence, it would not have existed. GVEA and Usibelli Coal Mine are the only "other organizations" which are not government. You can't blame it on anyone else.

Originally Posted by RayinAK

If the experiment would have ran clean and had been successful, then GVEA would have ran the new power plant, and other similar power plants would have been constructed in Alaska.
http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications...f/97CCT3_4.PDF

If government had not taken the risk, GVEA would have had to do something (at great risk) to determine if it was or was not feasible. That would have increased your bill.

[RayinAK]

I am not denying these facts:

a. I pay more for heating fuel and for electricity today than in previous years ($600. per month, going to $800.00 per month soon).

b. The consumers around Fairbanks and vicinity are not being subsidized as you have implied. My utilities bills are paid by me, without any help from the State in the form of a subsidy.

c. Perhaps you should read this to understand that the Healy Project was not a GVEA's project?
http://www.gvea.com/about/hccp/HCCP_Statement_Facts.pdf

[Floyd_Davidson]

Originally Posted by RayinAK

b. The consumers around Fairbanks and vicinity are not being subsidized as you have implied. My utilities bills are paid by me, without any help from the State in the form of a subsidy.

That has thoroughly been demonstated to be BS. Your electric bill has been subsidized to the tune of MILLIONS of dollars, and would be significantly higher except for money paid by the State of Alaska.

Why deny something that is so well documented???

Originally Posted by RayinAK

c. Perhaps you should read this to understand that the Healy Project was not a GVEA's project?
http://www.gvea.com/about/hccp/HCCP_Statement_Facts.pdf

"15. With these agreements in hand and its concerns allayed, GVEA became an active participant, supporter and advocate for the development of the HCCP project."

You document says otherwise. If you actually do read it.

[Xa'at]

Originally Posted by Crossfire600

I haven't read this entire post so if this has been hashed around already then I apologize. Do I understand correctly that they had absolutely no hazard insurance to cover this? They have no reserve funds to cover this? They live month to month as in payment to payment? Holy cow folks, this is a company that provides a service in a hostile environment that is prone to avalanches and they didn't have a financial plan in place for times like this? You have GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! I think Palin needs to launch an investigation as to how this company operates. I am not a fan of government intervention but this is a critical service.. I am just stunned. Am I out in left field on this one?

One last thought, why didn't the BURY the lines?

This whole thing is as a general rule completely ridiculous. AEL&P has done stuff bordering on criminal in the past, and this is no different.
The truth is, we were expecting an avalanche. There was a whole big article in Alaska mag about how Juneau is located beneath multiple chutes. Heck small avalanches are common this time of year as the snow pack begins to melt and get unstable. Just this afternoon when some friends and I were out at the glacier, the was an avalanche up on one of the mountains. It was pretty cool to watch, made a lot of noise.
Why they didn't bury the Snettisham line... we'll never know. I do know, however, that if they don't bury it this time when they do repairs there is going to be an outcry.

By the way, for those folks out of the area- the early estimates are projecting a 5-15 million dollar cost to repair the line, with power flowing again by August 1st.

[RayinAK]

Originally Posted by Floyd_Davidson

That has thoroughly been demonstated to be BS. Your electric bill has been subsidized to the tune of MILLIONS of dollars, and would be significantly higher except for money paid by the State of Alaska.

Why deny something that is so well documented???


"15. With these agreements in hand and its concerns allayed, GVEA became an active participant, supporter and advocate for the development of the HCCP project."

You document says otherwise. If you actually do read it.

OK then: Give me proof. Show me a document (s) showing how the State of AK is subsidizing GVEA, which in turn has lowered the cost of my electric and fuel bills.

Like I said before, trying to keep a sane dialog with you is impossible, since like User-2, you resort to insults as a means to bring your points across.

[Barkingowl]

Originally Posted by Xa'at

By the way, for those folks out of the area- the early estimates are projecting a 5-15 million dollar cost to repair the line, with power flowing again by August 1st.

Well that's good news.

[Floyd_Davidson]

Originally Posted by RayinAK

OK then: Give me proof. Show me a document (s) showing how the State of AK is subsidizing GVEA, which in turn has lowered the cost of my electric and fuel bills.

I've provided cites to the Alaska Statutes which show that the State of Alaska has passed legislation setting up funding for that purpose, has set up regulatory agencies for that purpose, has built power projects for that purpose, has supported research for that purpose... and you repeatedl deny that it has happened!

What kind of documentation does it require?

You've cited one document, claiming that it proved otherwise, and yet anyone who read that document past the first page found out that it said exactly the opposite of what you claimed! (And I posted a quote from the document showing exactly that.)

I've provided the dollar figures for State money spent to subsidize GVEA. GVEA and Usibelli Coal Mine put in $10 million of the $300+ million cost for the experimental Healy Clean Coal Plant. The State of Alaska spent money so that GVEA did not have to foot the bill to determine whether that technology was viable. The fact that is was not viable does not mean GVEA didn't avoid costs that the State paid for! The State supplied more than half the funding for the Bradley Lake Hydroelectric Project, of which GVEA buys 17% of the output, so that GVEA would not have to raise rates to build the same amount of generation infrastructure, thus again saving GVEA customers from more rate increases. The same is true of the Northern Intertie, which not only made the continuous supply of power from the Bradley project available, but made emergency power available from many other sources to allow GVEA to avoid raising customer rates to provide funding for even more infrastructure.

And after you've seen those figures, you still deny both the intent of the Legislature and the effect.

Originally Posted by RayinAK

Like I said before, trying to keep a sane dialog with you is impossible, since like User-2, you resort to insults as a means to bring your points across.

I have not insulted you. (But I will note that the above is a gratuitous personal insult on your part.)

If you post false facts, or make claims that are easily refuted, it is not an insult when someone sets the record straight. You said it has not happened, and I cited Alaska Statutes to show that it has! You cited a document and claimed it said something... yet I quoted from the document where it very clearly said exactly the opposite.

[RayinAK]

Post the links that will direct me to the State of AK web page, links that show real numbers indicating how the State of AK is subsidizing GVEA, and how those numbers are reducing my electric and heating fuel costs in real life. If you can do that, then I can believe what you have said.

Over and over I explained that the Healy Clean Coal Project was not a GVEA experiment. The documents at the links I posted clearly indicate that GVEA had agreed to run the new clean-burning plant once it was up and running. However, during the trial runs there was an explosion, and the experiment failed in several ways. GVEA then refused to buy technology that didn't work. I am not defending GVEA; its lawyers are doing that.

All I have said over and over is that I know of no subsidy that is helping my "working and tax paying neighbors" and me around North Pole and Fairbanks, in lowering my utilities monthly cost. If you think otherwise, prove it by posting the links to such.

[Floyd_Davidson]

Originally Posted by RayinAK

Post the links that will direct me to the State of AK web page, links that show real numbers indicating how the State of AK is subsidizing GVEA, and how those numbers are reducing my electric and heating fuel costs in real life. If you can do that, then I can believe what you have said.

That has been done, you say it proves nothing. Here are links again (to the GVEA web page):

GVEA: Northern Intertie

That one describes how $90 million dollars was appropriated by the State to fund the Intertie. "GVEA began saving money immediately ..."

GVEA: Bradley Lake Hydroelectric Project

That describes the Bradley Lake Hydroelectric project. The State of Alaska paid more than half of the $328 cost, and GVEA buys power for less than half (4 cents per kWh) what it would cost if GVEA had to build a similar plant with customer generated revenues.

GVEA: Healy Wind Study

That one describes an experimental project, funded by the State of Alaska. This was small, and just like the Healy Clean Coal Project the State took the risk rather than GVEA, thus saving GVEA customers the cost of doing research.

GVEA:

That URL describes how the State paid major costs for adding to GVEA's service area north of Fairbanks.

Originally Posted by RayinAK

Over and over I explained that the Healy Clean Coal Project was not a GVEA experiment. The documents at the links I posted clearly indicate that GVEA had agreed to run the new clean-burning plant once it was up and running. However, during the trial runs there was an explosion, and the experiment failed in several ways. GVEA then refused to buy technology that didn't work. I am not defending GVEA; its lawyers are doing that.

The report you cited says that GVEA was initially not legally able to participate, that when the legal barriers were removed they became an active part of the project.

"15. With these agreements in hand and its concerns allayed, GVEA
became an active participant, supporter and advocate for the
development of the HCCP project."
http://www.gvea.com/about/hccp/HCCP_Statement_Facts.pdf

You have now twice claimed is says exactly the opposite of what it very clearly states.

Their webpage says the fully expect the issues to be resolved. You can claim it is "not a GVEA experiment" all you like, but that is BULL****.

GVEA: Healy Clean Coal Plant (HCCP)

GVEA offered to purchase the entire HCCP project from the State in 2004, and the State rejected it. When sued for breach of contract, GVEA requested mediation, which is in progress. "GVEA expects the mediation to be productive."

Originally Posted by RayinAK

All I have said over and over is that I know of no subsidy that is helping my "working and tax paying neighbors" and me around North Pole and Fairbanks, in lowering my utilities monthly cost. If you think otherwise, prove it by posting the links to such.

Irrefutable facts have repeatedly been posted. You do know of at least several of the subsidies you deny even one of.