Money before nature ? (homes, income, living)

[Floyd_Davidson]

Originally Posted by Rance

I live here. And I work in the oil field. Before they go punching holes in ANWR there will be months, perhaps years of seismic data to collect, then annalysis of said data, then permits to be applied for along with a tremendous amount of environmental study. And then...as we are now...we would be bird dogged by the environmental agencies. It's not like we are going to go stampeding across the coastal plains punching holes everywhere.

You do realize what the 3d seismic work will do to ANWR? Look at what just the old 2d that was done in the mid-80's did! They've had more than 30 years to study how long the damage would take to recover. That was on a 4 mile grid, and 3d will be done on 1/2 mile grids over essentially the entire coastal plain. That in itself will be an environmental disaster which will permanently alter the ecology.

And the Caribou herds have actually grown over the years rather than diminish.

Herds have NOT grown where oil production exists. Instead the use of the areas around Kuparuk and Prodhoe Bay have been reduced.

"Conservative calculations yielded an estimated 78% decrease in
use by caribou and a 90% decrease in their lateral movements
(Cameron et al. 1995), all changes apparently in response to
intensive development of the Prudhoe Bay to Kuparuk oil field
region over the past 3 decades.

Raymond D. Cameron, Walter T. Smith, Robert G. White, and Brad Griffith

Section 4: Central Arctic Caribou Herd - Part 1 - Arctic Refuge Coastal Plain Terrestrial Wildlife Research Summaries

Worse yet, that decrease has happened while the herd itself, which lives away from oil production facilities, has grown 600%! There are six times as many caribou that could use the area around Kuparuk/Prudhoe, and instead there are 78% fewer than before oil when the herd was very small.

Of course the Central Arctic herd does live elsewhere, and does have alternate areas for calving. The Porcupine herd has no alternative, and if the exact same reduction took place it would be a gross disaster of monumental proportion.

[Floyd_Davidson]

Originally Posted by Terryj

There is allot of misconception when it come to the North Slope oil fields, most people who complain about drilling have never been to the North Slope.

Most people who make that statement have almost no exposure to the totallity of the North Slope, and have never seen any part of it other than where the oil companies have taken them. Have you, for example, any perception of the cultures, the villages, the people or the geography and how all of those are inter-dependent? Have you been to Kaktovik, have you eaten caribou, goose soup or whitefish or maktaq? Do you know the difference between Prudhoe Bay and Deese Bay? Or the difference between Milne Point and Point Hope?

Please don't pull the "I've been there I'm and expert" in this forum. I live on the North Slope, and I've seen it from North to South and East to West. I'll be the first one to tell you that I am not an expert in the way you are claiming to be, despite having orders of magnitude more exposure than you even imagine. I do, however, know where there are experts!

Most people who make comments about how wonderfully the oil companies treat the environment are simply unaware of 99% of what that entails. Cleaning up every time someone spills kitchen grease or spits tobacco juice is great propaganda, but it does not make up for 2 million gallons of toxic spills in the ten year period from 1995 to 2005, nor the 900,000+ spill in 2007, nor the 400+ spills each and every year since operations began.

I worked there for a few years and can say that it is one of the most environmental conscious areas in the world.

You can say it all you like, but it does not change the fact that there are Super Fund sites within Prudhoe Bay, the air polution can be measured 200 miles away in Barrow, it has totally removed the caribou that once calved at Kuparuk, and is an environmental disaster that can never be recovered.

Not that that isn't something that we do want to accept in that particular area, and in other specified areas, such as most of the NPR-A. But equally we need to realize that is what it is, and that there are places where that sacrifice is simply not appropriate. Blindfolding yourself and claiming it is not destructive and therefore we can safely do the same thing just anywhere is not sensible.

So, how is this destructive? I think people should see this first hand instead of relying on the propaganda that is fed to them.

You are relying on propaganda.

Here are some facts, provided by experts:

Arctic Refuge Coastal Plain Terrestrial Wildlife Research Summaries - Home
Arctic Refuge: Oil and Gas Issues
Arctic Refuge: Site Index

[Tressa]

Everybody has a twist on the news, available information and possible affects on the tundra, wildlife and such at this point I'm not sure who to believe. I do know that they have to build the ice roads before they can cross the tundra in most area's.

We do seismic work on the west side of cook inlet, there is some change to the area by way of cutting in a route for the seismic crews, but as far was the wildlife we have not seen any change at all, the vegation grows back so the cutting in a route doesn't have a long term afffect.

[Rance]

Floyd they no longer use dynamite for seismic. And it's only done in the winter. You'll have to clue me in as to the damge you speak of.
I've worked here in Kuparuk for 20 years. There are tenfold more Caribou here now than there was 20 years ago. Now don't get me wrong. I'm probably more into critters and scenery than you are.

[Floyd_Davidson]

Originally Posted by Rance

Floyd they no longer use dynamite for seismic. And it's only done in the winter. You'll have to clue me in as to the damge you speak of.

You need to read the cites, not just guess at what they might say. It has nothing to do with the actual seismic testing itself, it has to do with getting the equipment into position to make a test. The trail across the tundra does things like change the drainage, which dramatically affects the vegetation, which has an effect on the animals too.

I've worked here in Kuparuk for 20 years. There are tenfold more Caribou here now than there was 20 years ago. Now don't get me wrong. I'm probably more into critters and scenery than you are.

I doubt that very much. :-)

Did you read the research that I cited? Do you know who Ray Cameron is? (He is probably the most respected caribou biologist in Alaska, now retired from ADF&G and teaching at UAF last time I knew.) Cameron headed up the initial 25 years or so of research on the Central Arctic caribou herd. His collegue Ken Whitten headed up about 20 years of research on the Porcupine caribou herd. Note that I didn't say there were fewer Caribou, Cameron (and about ten other biologists with almost as interesting credentials) are the ones who said it. Oddly enough so does the work of Matthew Cronin! (I commonly point out that virtually all credible caribou biologist agree on not drilling in ANWR, and say it that way because there is one person who has done field work on the North Slope that disagrees with everyone else, and that is Matthew Cronin. He literally says everyone else is a liar and that they have bad data. He has exactly zero credibility.)

In this case I can say that they all agree, even the incredible one!

They do census counts on a regular basis, and except perhaps for Cronin (who does it from the road in a truck) they get consistently valid data. If you think there are more now that 20 years ago, you need to re-evaluate the methods you have used to determine the numbers. Looking out the window after dinner just isn't going to get it, by comparison to carefully planned arial photo census methods.

Also, keep in mind that prior to oil development the entire herd calved in the area that now has oil production infrastructure.
What you probably would be seeing there if it were not for the oil isn't the 2 or 3 thousand caribou you might see now (which sounds like a lot, but it isn't the 4 to 5 thousand that would have been there in 1968. And what you would be seeing today without oil would be
25,000 or so...

[warptman]

Go Celtics!

[Manmountain]

What about the 40 acre large HARP Antenae Array in Gakona? , its 40 acres worth of EMW technology that was stolen from Tesla? Geo-Physicist are on record that the earths Magnetic waves are so out of wack . Hurricanes and Tornado numbers are up 10 fold. My heart just bleeds watching all the death and destruction these monsters commit.
I dont believe anything that comes from any Corp/Gov. entity. These monsters are royally f-in up the earth for their own gain. and they want to keep people fat sick and dumb . TV their optimal tool.
I have a feeling deep down their gonna turn Alaska into a desolation like Russia has done to their frontier.

The Democratic Party and the Republican parties are just Corporations with GW Schrub the CEO. Vote? what a joke! Im no Slave.

[Rance]

Well Floyd maybe the Caribou are liking it here more now than 20 years ago. I don't know. All I know is there are more here...even through winter...than I've ever seen. I'm not reading anything, and I'm not guessing either. All I know is what I see. We've got a small herd right here next to the rig now. They don't seem a bit bothered. Heck they bed down 2 or 3 times a day within 100 yards of the rig. And I've seen many seeking shade under many production buildings or behind well houses. They seem to favor standing on the gravel roads I guess to gain that couple extra feet of elevation for some breeze to help keep the mosquito's and flies away. You rely on the word of others. I rely on my own observations. I can live with that.

[Floyd_Davidson]

Originally Posted by Rance

Well Floyd maybe the Caribou are liking it here more now than 20 years ago. I don't know. All I know is there are more here...even through winter...than I've ever seen. I'm not reading anything, and I'm not guessing either. All I know is what I see. We've got a small herd right here next to the rig now. They don't seem a bit bothered. Heck they bed down 2 or 3 times a day within 100 yards of the rig. And I've seen many seeking shade under many production buildings or behind well houses. They seem to favor standing on the gravel roads I guess to gain that couple extra feet of elevation for some breeze to help keep the mosquito's and flies away. You rely on the word of others. I rely on my own observations. I can live with that.

Okay. Now explain why at one time, before oil production there, the entire herd would have been there. Do you see 25,000-30,000 caribou there? Ever? You would if they were acting the same way they used to.

Your observations are interesting, but the perspective you put on them is not valid.

[MHarrington]

What is happening in Alaska right now? Does the lust - nay, greed - for oil on the part of our government spell certain doom for the natural beauty up there or doesn't it? I'm confused. All the petitions I have signed said that unless I signed and taken action, it was doomed. So what's going on?