The Pioneering Spirit (homes, universities, to live in)

[arctichomesteader]

Originally Posted by Floyd_Davidson

Which just proves my point.

First, there is no question that accidental gunshot wounds were one of if not the most common cause of death on the Oregon Trail. That is reported by virtually all sources and they only differ on whether cholera, other accidents, or gunshot was the most common.

So why such a high accident rate for guns? The simple fact is that most Americans in 1843, when the massive migration began, had virtually no experience with guns. The last war of any significance (and even that was fairly small) had been the War of 1812, fought by a very small professional army aided by larger numbers of state militia, it marked the end of significance for the two laws called the Militia Act of 1792.

By the 1840's most American experience with weapons amounted to seeing that old Revolutionary War relic musket on the mantel over the fireplace. It hadn't been fired more than a few times at most in the past 15-20 years, and nobody actually hunted or practiced military arts with it. The militia training, as you noted, had become a social event.

Here is a typical comment about guns on the Oregon Trail:

"William SHOTWELL became the first trail emigrant to die of an
accidental gun shot; such accidents became frequent among the
inexperienced and heavily armed travelers on the Oregon Trail."

Oregon Trail 1841 - 1843

The essential problem was the perceived need to have a firearm ready for immediate use, and a total lack of training in how to accomplish that. These were muzzle loading weapons, which necessarily had to be pre-loaded do the the time required to prepare one for use. They tended to store them laying horizontally,
cocked and ready, in a wagon. Typical accidents happened when a person reached into a wagon and pulled out such a gun, accidentally firing it. But sometimes it would just be someone moving things around in the wagon, and when the gun went off it killed whoever was innocently walking behind the wagon.

It should be noted too that the mortality rate at the peak of the migration was more than 10%. The death rate from gun accidents was extremely high. Compare that with how Hollywood has convinced everyone that Indians were a big problem, but in fact they were associated with perhaps only 300, maybe 0.1%, of deaths on the Oregon Trail over a 30 year period.

No the militia system declined after the Civil War, towards the end of the 19th century (and then in the early 20th we get the national guard set up, and the arming/training requirements eliminated for the unorganized militia). Those firearms at the time were carried in the half-co-ck position, no safetys back then. Not a safe way to carry a firearm, especially in a bouncing, moving wagon, but that was their only choice. I don't doubt there were lots of accidents but the primary reason was definately not ignorance about firearms.

[Woof]

Originally Posted by Floyd_Davidson

What? You think urban residents along the eastern seaboard in the 1830's and 1840's where all packing guns, hunting for a living, or at the shooting range every day?

Most of them had never fired a gun in their lives. They had no reason to own one.

Where's your primary source for saying they had never fired a gun? Of course they had fired guns, they were farmers. Farmers usually have guns, especially shotguns, to help rid the farm of vermin. And for self-defense.

Originally Posted by Floyd_Davidson

Which just proves my point.

First, there is no question that accidental gunshot wounds were one of if not the most common cause of death on the Oregon Trail. That is reported by virtually all sources and they only differ on whether cholera, other accidents, or gunshot was the most common.
... blah blah blah ......
Here is a typical comment about guns on the Oregon Trail:

"William SHOTWELL became the first trail emigrant to die of an
accidental gun shot; such accidents became frequent among the
inexperienced and heavily armed travelers on the Oregon Trail."

Oregon Trail 1841 - 1843

The essential problem was the perceived need to have a firearm ready for immediate use, and a total lack of training in how to accomplish that. These were muzzle loading weapons, which necessarily had to be pre-loaded do the the time required to prepare one for use. They tended to store them laying horizontally,
cocked and ready, in a wagon. Typical accidents happened when a person reached into a wagon and pulled out such a gun, accidentally firing it. But sometimes it would just be someone moving things around in the wagon, and when the gun went off it killed whoever was innocently walking behind the wagon.

It should be noted too that the mortality rate at the peak of the migration was more than 10%. The death rate from gun accidents was extremely high. Compare that with how Hollywood has convinced everyone that Indians were a big problem, but in fact they were associated with perhaps only 300, maybe 0.1%, of deaths on the Oregon Trail over a 30 year period.

What's "extremely high", 01%, 25%?

I simply don't trust historians' estimates unless they've actually been going around tallying headstones, and in that case they should refer to such a tally. Historians have academic fads .... when I was younger some history departments would actually advertise for Marxist professors. Other departments in other fields had Freudian fads.

[Barkingowl]

So are Alaskans prepared for a SHTF situation?

[Grannysroost]

Originally Posted by Barkingowl

So are Alaskans prepared for a SHTF situation?

I think that is more a way of life here, fishing in summer, hunting fall and getting ready and stocking up for the next season or winter...

[starlite9]

Originally Posted by Barkingowl

So are Alaskans prepared for a SHTF situation?

If "S**t" hit the fan, in Alaska those on the road system between Anchorage and Fairbanks would be overrun with people in the cities panicking and trying to find food.

If the SeaLand ships stopped coming into Anchorage with all the food stuffs, there isn't much of a reserve in the state. The villages aren't really set up for survival either in spite of what they want to say.

"Most", (not all) of the villages are built around a fuel system that runs the town's generator, fuel is either shipped in or flown in. The houses are more like something you would find in Calif and don't agree with Nature in the sense that once electricity is gone, they don't work well. Without food being flown in from Anchorage or shipped in by sea or river, they would tend to get pretty desperate too. There simply isn't enough game to sustain most towns that need to rely 100% off the land with the number of people they have.

The Coastal towns in the Southeast would fair out much better since the sea is an easy place to get food from and winters are mild compared to the interior.

Places like the North Slope where all the traditional sod homes that retained heat and were easy to keep warm are all but gone. Now houses heated by electricity are the norm, and when winter sets in, would cause a great problem with just staying warm if fuel wasn't coming in.

A town like Barrow of thousands, couldn't sustain itself very long if food wasn't being flown in daily from Anchorage.

To get out and hunt, they would require gas for the snowmachines or fourwheelers and since dog sleds are a hobby, not a lifestyle now days, there isn't enough to make any real impact.

[Barkingowl]

Hmm... That doesn't sound good Mark. But thanks for being honest.

[DannyL]

Originally Posted by Barkingowl

So are Alaskans prepared for a SHTF situation?

Ok, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say NO!
Alaska has been whored out since the Russians bumped into it by mistake.
Alaska produces practiacally nothing except oil and hopefully NG in the future. Everything is shipped in, barged in, or flown in. It seems that "give me my PFD and dividend check and life is good and I'm just like those I see on TV". Personally, I think that sucks.
New residents move here expecting everything to be the same as in Kansas, from shopping to groceries to internet service to cell phone service.
Hell, the SE is easy to live in, and I meet newbies who can't handle it.

[Siouxcia]

Originally Posted by karfar

Ooo, you must go visit! I still have to take a day trip to Pepin in the western part of WI, that's where Laura is from apparently. Highland, those pictures are very cool, I can't believe those ruts are so deep! And I'm still amazed that they are there to this day.

I think I will. There was a sign for a 'sod house' still in existence about 30 miles from Walnut Grove. I really want to see that!! Our ancestors were so ingenius when it came to survival.

[Barkingowl]

Originally Posted by Siouxcia

I think I will. There was a sign for a 'sod house' still in existence about 30 miles from Walnut Grove. I really want to see that!! Our ancestors were so ingenius when it came to survival.

The Native Heritage Center in Anchorage has a few sod huts standing to show how different life was in the past. On the whole they're pretty roomy, warm & defensible.

[Floyd_Davidson]

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

No the militia system declined after the Civil War,

It declined after the War of 1812.

towards the end of the 19th century (and then in the early 20th we get the national guard set up, and the arming/training requirements eliminated for the unorganized militia). Those firearms at the time were carried in the half-co-ck position, no safetys back then. Not a safe way to carry a firearm, especially in a bouncing, moving wagon, but that was their only choice. I don't doubt there were lots of accidents but the primary reason was definately not ignorance about firearms.

Sounds nice, eh? But it clearly is not a valid scenerio! If what you say is true, then virtually every troop movement of an army would have resulted in approximately the same kind of accident rate. But the fact is that armies are trained (not all of them that well either), and they did not have the same problem.

That's why histories are full of statements like this:

"William SHOTWELL became the first trail emigrant to die of an
accidental gun shot; such accidents became frequent among the
inexperienced and heavily armed travelers on the Oregon Trail."
Oregon Trail 1841 - 1843

You are merely making up "facts" off the top of your head and are not reading history or looking at historical documents.