The Pioneering Spirit (Metlakatla: loan, companies, building)

[Floyd_Davidson]

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

Floyd, that entire book has been discredited,

No it hasn't. Besides, if we go by that sort of thing... YOU have no credibility left at all. Just look what you did with that last post, where you deleted what I referenced to Bellesiles (the fact that Vermont had no Adjutant General for several years), quoted the cite and deleted 2 whole paragraphs to make something entirely different appear to be related to the cite, and then you replied to it as if that was what I had referenced with Bellesiles' book. Do you want me to describe what I think of your motives in doing that, or what I think of your level of integrity when I see that sort of thing? You make Bellesiles look like an angel.

The author fabricated evidence that didn't exist (for example, probate records from San Francisco, all of which burned in 1906 and don't exist).

You've been suckered. He did no such thing. What he did was find records across the Bay in another archive that were labeled as "San Francisco". He didn't even claim that they actually were records from San Francisco, all he did was copy the label on the documents! It turned out they are Contra Costa County records (all of which are in fact related in some way to San Francisco). The point of course is that the data was accurate, and the only problem was where it was labeled as from, which of course has no bearing on its use as statistical evidence (which by the way the book itself depreciates significantly).

He mentioned VT probate records saying repeatedly that guns were old or damaged or non-working, which in fact, they did not.

You've been suckered again! The VT probate records that he researched say just about exactly what he claimed they did. Other records of course have different data and the two do not compare exactly. That means exactly nothing, and certainly is not a basis to claim fraud.

That is exactly the type of trash argument that was used to discredit the fellow. He made errors... and so does everyone else who does that sort of research, because it is impossible not to.

That book lacks any credibility. Even some of the various awards he was given were taken back from him, and the publisher refused to reprint the book because of its problems.

The known errors were corrected, and a second edition was published by a different publisher. Nobody has disputed it. In fact, nobody disputed most of the first book! Worse yet, for your case, is that all of the cites I've provided here were from totally different sources, all of which independantly support exactly the same conclusions that Bellesiles came to.

Bellesiles had research errors... your article was just plain dishonest! You haven't got a leg to stand on.

[Floyd_Davidson]

Originally Posted by starlite9

A one or two man whipsaw or a guy with a gas chainsaw is not a "Saw Mill", just because they cut lumber doesn't mean they were a "Mill". "Mills" were powered by horses, water, steam, gas and electricity. A lot of the Amish on the Eastern State use whip saws in building, but they aren't called "Sawmills".

Get yourself a really good dictionary, and look up two things: "mill" and "sawmill".

The getup for sawing lumber is a "sawmill", even if the saw us human powered. Yes, it is true that one variation on the term distinguishes between how the saw is powered; but that is only one variation.

[arctichomesteader]

Anti-Gun Book Comes Under Heavy Fire

[Floyd_Davidson]

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

Most people wouldn't do the pit method of cutting boards.

That is not generally true. They would whipsaw lumber when it was a significant benefit, but not otherwise. For example, boat builders very commonly didn't blink an eye at setting up a pit and cranking out the planks they needed.

[Marty Van Diest]

Originally Posted by Floyd_Davidson

That is not generally true. They would whipsaw lumber when it was a significant benefit, but not otherwise. For example, boat builders very commonly didn't blink an eye at setting up a pit and cranking out the planks they needed.

Floyd is right. I remember people in Holikachuk whipsawing boards for boats. They only needed enough boards for one boat so just set whipped them out...and that was only about 45 years ago.

[arctichomesteader]

Pioneers building cabins had little reason to do so however.

[Floyd_Davidson]

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

Anti-Gun Book Comes Under Heavy Fire

That is exactly the kind of smear that gives the NRA such a bad name.

Read what it says about both the San Francisco probate file and the Vermont probate files, and the general commentary about probate file as used in the book... and then go re-read what I just pointed out in the previous article. The SF data was correct, so was the Vermont data, and neither is particularly significant to the book. But the distortions about it in that article are horrendous!

Regardless, you still can't get past the fact that your claiming I used that book as anything other than a reference for the years when Vermont had no Adjutant General was far more dishonest!

[arctichomesteader]

The book has been trashed in various scholarly journal articles over the years by serious scholars. It's not accepted as a legitimate source for research, etc. That should tell you something.

[Woof]

Originally Posted by Floyd_Davidson

Quote:
But the page you linked to earlier didn't bear that out, did it? As I pointed out, and you were unable to refute.
That you read the cited documents and cannot absorb what they say speaks a great deal towards your unsubstantiated opinions expressed here. Your claim that the link did not demonstrate what I said (even though I'd quoted the part the demonstated it) is hilarious and it didn't require any further comment from me!

(earlier)....Here is a typical comment about guns on the Oregon Trail:

"William SHOTWELL became the first trail emigrant to die of an
accidental gun shot; such accidents became frequent among the
inexperienced and heavily armed travelers on the Oregon Trail."

Oregon Trail 1841 - 1843

.....

You seem to be mistaking an editorial comment (presumably from some frail little person frightened by guns) with an actual factual statement backed up by data.

Let's take a quick look at the page, I don't have time to scrutinize it but have searched for "die(d)" and "gun" only:

William SHOTWELL became the first trail emigrant to die of anaccidental gun shot


Mary Kinney (Mrs. David) LESLIE died giving birth to a healthy child in mid-May

he had died four days after a fall from a horse.

William H. and Chloe WILLSON's newborn died in 1841

In October, Umtippe, a Waiilatpu area chief, died of illness.

Buxton's wife, Frances, had died during the fall of 1841-42; she never recovered from a fall from her horse

On February 26, 1842, Lucyanna Maria LEE was born. Lucy Thomas Lee (the second Mrs. Jason Lee) died shortly after.

the wife of John HOBSON, an Oregon-bound settler, died of illness

Mrs. RUBEY died of illness

[SIZE=2]A man named BAILEY was accidentally shot when he passed behind a wagon just as the owner drew a blanket from the front causing the gun to go off; Bailey was buried near Independence Rock.[/SIZE]


Sorry, Floyd, that page only lists the two deaths from gun accidents, in a span of three years, among thousands of emigrants. That doesn't seem "frequent" to me.

[Floyd_Davidson]

Originally Posted by Woof

Sorry, Floyd, that page only lists the two deaths from gun accidents, in a span of three years, among thousands of emigrants. That doesn't seem "frequent" to me.

Are you that unaware?

That page is a timeline, not a record of all events. Only the first event or a notable highpoint will be listed at all. Rather than lacking significance because there are only two gun accidents listed, look at how close to the beginning of the list the first one comes, and note the significance that was attached to it with "such accidents became frequent".

Your research method is flawed. You have an agenda that you want to find evidence in support of. You need to look instead for information, and then ask yourself what it is evidence for.

As I've mentioned previously, and you cannot fail to miss if you will only do some actual research on this topic, virtually every credible historian makes note of the fact that gunshot wounds was one of (and apparently at times the most common) cause of death on each of the overland trails from East to West in the mid-1800's. (The single exception appears to be that it may not have been a significant cause of death among the Mormon groups.)